A few Questions about Divorce

The closest thing I have found to describe how 2 people become one (are married) is in Gen 24-67 And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's death.

In a perfect world, this would be very simple. But of course I know that in todays world it is a lot more complicated.

Selah,

Tam

 

Mr. Lowery,

bmerr here. The lack of Biblical teaching on the subject of marriage-divorce-remarriage is evidenced by the divorce rates among both churched and unchurched in the world. It was somewhere around 50% last I knew. Multitudes of people have gotten themselves into adulterous marriages and don't even know it due to the way this topic is avoided by many in pulpits, supposedly teaching the whole council of God.

I would like to adress a comment you made in an earlier post,

You have also posted that if unbelievers are married, then God did not join them, or words to that effect.

We must understand that marriage was God's idea. it was the first institution created by Him for man, way back in Genesis (Gen 2:22-25). Marriage was and has always been between one man and one woman for life. Homosexual unions do not meet the qualification for marriage (a man leaving father and mother and cleaving to his wife).

Also, there is a word in Matt 19:9 that I think you may be overlooking. That word is "Whosoever". This word includes everyone, not just believers. This word is also used in John 3:16, and I don't think you'd apply that verse only to believers, would you?

I realize that applying Matt 19:9 to everyone makes it a hard saying, but Jesus' disciples recognized this, too. Read on through Matt 19:10-12. See also Mark 10:2-12 and Matt 5:31-32.

God has allowed for only two things to separate a man and woman after they have married: death and divorce for fornication. If one's spouse dies, they are no longer joined to them. They are free to remarry. If one's spouse commits fornication, the innocent party is permitted (not commanded) to put the guilty party away and remarry. the guily party may not Scripturally remarry.

It's not as complicated as many would make it, it just isn't taught much anymore. Hope this helps.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

This is a very good question.

Exactly what consitutes marriage?

 

What constitutes marriage? Could it be this?

Gen 24-67 And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's death.

They went into the tent. (We know what they did in there). Then she was his wife. Simple.

We 20th and 21st century people have mucked it up a lot so we can have our own way, but basically that is it.

And Bmerr, the reason it is not taught from the pulpit is bacause half the congregation in already knee deep in a mess. People don't want to bring stress to families so they leave it alone. No use making it harder than it is already.

Peace,

Tam

 

O dunno, Tam, you're implying that the sexual act constitutes a marriage. Yet scriptural fornication referrs to sex outside of marriage, even amongst two nonmarried persons. So it appreas that the sex act seals the marriage between the two, but is not the deciding factor in what constitutes a marriage.

 

Tambourine lady,

bmerr here. So if half of a congregation is involved in drunkenness and illegal drug use, should it not be adressed? How about abortion? Should it not be condemned because some in a congregation might have had one? Christianity is not a "feel good" religion. God demands repentance. One feels good when one knows he is living according to God's word. Those not doing so should not feel good. Felix trembled when Paul reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgement to come (Acts 24:25). Maybe Paul should have backed off...

According to your apparent line of reasoning, we might as well not talk about anything the Bible commands or forbids, since all have sinned, and we don't want to add stress to people's lives.

Think of the stress people will be under when they stand condemned before God Almighty for having lived in adulterous marriages, and end up in hell for eternity. All because we didn't want to bring stress to families. Adulterers and adulteresses will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 6:9-10).

Also, sex is not required for there to be a marriage. Joseph knew not Mary until after she brought forth her firstborn son, yet she was his wife (Matt 1:24-25). Take a look at Gen 2:24.

"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."

The joining together of man and woman is marriage. Sex is at least part of man and wife being "one flesh".

The failure on the part of preachers to speak on the subject of marriage-divorce-remarriage is a large contributing factor to the ignorance of many religious and non-religious people. Individual Biblical ignorance is another.

Ignorance of the law is not an excuse for breaking it.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

The first reference to what we call marriage:

Genesis 2:24 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave untio his wife, and they shall be one flesh."

 

quote:
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Originally by tambourine lady:

And Bmerr, the reason it is not taught from the pulpit is bacause half the congregation in already knee deep in a mess. People don't want to bring stress to families so they leave it alone. No use making it harder than it is already.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tam also says, this is not my idea and I do not condone it. However, as many can attest to, this is what is happening.

Peace,

Tam

 

Tam,

bmerr here. Didn't mean to read so much into your post. My apologies. You are correct, though; preachers tend to avoid preaching on subjects that will rile people up. It's sad that for so many their concern for their job and the money coming into the organization outweighs their concern for preaching the whole council of God.

The divorce thing has several "pastors" in the area jammed up, too. Small wonder that they never preach on it...

Sure will be a lot of people disappointed at the Judgement (Matt 7:21-23).

In Christ,

bmerr

 

Apology acceptd, Bmerr. I sometimes post things and forget to say that I don't believe it, personally.



Yes, it is sad, but alot of churches are more interested in nichols, noses and numbers than they are preaching the truth.

Sad, but true. Not only on that subject, but others too.

But I believe we should operate according to this scripture:

Proverbs 27-5 Open rebuke is better than secret love.
6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

Then of course the one Jesus said, "the truth will set you free".

Peace,

Tam

 

Tam,

bmerr here. I don't suppose this type of thing should suprise anyone. Paul said that "the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (2 Tim 4:3-4).

Peter also speaks of those who would through covetousness with feigned words make merchandise of you (2 Pet 2:1-3).

All the more reason for us to study to shew ourselves approved unto God so we won't be ashamed at the Judgement.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

Hey Tam!

I started a thread about this on another baptist board and was nearly banned!

One of the Mods declared I was promoting fornication because I said the only thing I could find on marriage was consumation. Of course he couldn't present any biblical evidence of what society has declared a marriage to be. He locked the thread and then a day later deleted it all together. He said some things should not be dicussed between Christians and this was one of them! So you must be legally married by man's law before you are consumated by God's law I guess?

God Bless!

 

Yep, this old world has come a long way since Rebecca and Isaac hasn't it?



And most folks think it has improved. How sad.

Selah,

Tam

 

Isn't marriage before God biblically as simple as this...You deciding to have intercourse with a person of the opposite sex means you have chosen to be married to that person and only that person for life before God? I can find nothing in the scriptures that follows todays traditions of having a preacher declare you husband and wife. They had weddings in the bible, but these were celebrations of a marriage that was about to take place in a private tent. It wasn't a marriage until consumation, right?

How about a forced marriage? Isn't this really rape? It falls back to the scriptures and what do the scriptures present a marriage to be. I see it as a man and a women consentually agreeing to be husband and wife before God and then consummating that by being joined together in intercourse. Celebrations can take place and public anouncements can be made, but I can only see consummation as the ultimate marriage declaration. NOT "fornication"! NOT a preacher declaring it a marriage, but a man and a woman chosing a life together and coming together before God, two becoming one by intercourse.

Is it really a marriage according to the scriptures without intercourse? Two must become one. This is how marriage is presented in the scriptures. Should man's laws trump God's laws? If marriage must be between a man and a woman according to the scriptures (no men with men or women with women) then we must also accept that marriage according to the scriptures includes a consummation, two must become one to seal the deal.

God Bless!

 

Steaver, that's the way I see it too. Exactly.

Ex 22-16 And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.
17 If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.

The reason the father was paid a dowry was because now she was defiled and no other man would want her.

Of course it's a lot different today.

Peace,

Tam

 

Rev. Lowry, there are some of us that agree with you completely that there is no sin in a man's past, including divorce, that would keep him legally from being a pastor or a deacon but he should have at the present time only one wife at most. Alas, however clear the scripture seems to us, there are those who interpret it differently, and so most of our churches still inforce the "no ordination if past divorced" rule. And thats all there is to that.

Some people have expressed a concern that we might be divided on this issue. Heaven help us if we cannot tolerate people with an alternate opinion! For over and over again all over these forum topics we find, after all, that we have alternate opinions about everything under the sun, it seems.

 

Heres an article I just read...what say you?

In the OT marriage was: 1) having the consent and paying the girl's father, 2) having sex with the girl. 3) being exclusively her husband for life (otherwise the marriage is no longer valid) If you wish, I replace one word: marriage was: 1) paying the father of the beloved young woman, 2) having sex with the chosen and beloved woman. 3) being exclusively her husband for life (otherwise the marriage is no longer valid)

Question: Where does it say ceremony is a must? A marriage is valid before God if two of the opposite sex love each other, want to spend their life together, have the consent of the parents, NO?


Answer
The Bible doesn't give all the details of what was involved in marriage in the Old Testament. As you say, we know that a sum of money may have been paid to the father, and the father paid a dowry to the bridegroom. It was probably not considered a marriage until the couple had sex. And the couple was to be exclusively each other's for life, although we do find multiple marriages as well. Two things that you left out were that the marriage was before witnesses. Deuteronomy 22:13-21 talks about the "tokens of virginity." Apparently there were witnesses who observed the couple go into the tent, and then took these "tokens" after they couple had sex for the first time. The other thing you implied, but didn't state specifically, was that the couple made a public declaration of their intent to be married. Among the Jews this took the form of a "ketubah," a marriage contract, somewhat like our marriage license.

I do have one slight quibble, also, with your third point. If either was not the other's exclusively for life the marriage could be invalidated by divorce, but was not automatically invalid. It was the choice of the parties to the marriage whether that would make it invalid or not. One party could cheat on the other and the marriage continue with the consent of both.

The Bible does not say that there must be any sort of ceremony. It doesn't give any details of what constitutes a marriage. Therefore it appears to leave it up to the laws of the land in which the couple lives. In the New Testament, Christians are told to be subject to the governing authorities (1 Peter 2:13-16; Romans 13:1-6). Thus, if the government requires a marriage ceremony then the Bible requires a ceremony. In the United States forty-seven of the fifty states require at least the signing of a marriage license before a person authorized by the state to marry the couple, and the signatures of witnesses. I am not sure of the laws of Canada. Mexico requires a ceremony. Many European countries require a separate civil ceremony even if a church wedding was performed.

From what little the Bible does say it appears that a marriage is valid before God if two of the opposite sex agree according to the laws of the land to spend their life together, usually with the consent of the parents. Such consent may not be required if the woman is no longer living with her parents. And love is not a requirement; many arranged marriages are valid even though neither party knew or loved each other before the wedding. Love as a prerequisite to marriage is a modern invention.

http://minuteswithmessiah.tripod.com/question/marriage.html

 

You have a few good points Rich. The picture we get from the scriptures is that of a man asking for a woman's hand in marriage from the father or family. Doweries could be exchanged whether before or after the marriage. I think doweries were mostly jesture which kinda showed how much you valued your son or daughter. A public anouncement was made. It was a betrothal. The pending marriage was now in motion. Not yet married but committed to each other. At this point to break it off and not consummate would be shameful and one would need to have a very good reason for doing so. Joseph was going to quietly break it off with Mary because of what he believed at the time to be fornication. As far as celebration, not commanded, but why not, it is a special day for two to become one. Which brings them to consummation. This seals the deal that was made. Webster states it this way..."To complete; to finish; make complete, as marriage by intercourse".

I would say that two people having intercourse without any of the proper given biblical steps towards that intercourse would be sinning in fornication. Yet it is the act of intercourse alone which declares two married before God. Two who have publically declared their intentions to commit themselves one to the other as forever husband and wife until death do they part.

God Bless!

 

To All,

bmerr here. Many good points have been made concerning what constitues marriage, etc. However, the Bible is much clearer in it's rules concerning divorce. Fornication is the ONLY Biblical cause for a divorce. If a couple is granted a divorce by the courts of man for some other reason, the Court of Heaven still recognizes them as a married couple.

This goes for the sinner and the saint alike. Matt 19:9 says, "Whosoever" just like John 3:16. If John 3:16 is for everyone, so is Matt 19:9.

The end result is this: If an unsaved man divorces his wife for "irreconcilable differences", and marries another, he commits adultery against his wife. His remarriage is unScriptural, and is sinful.

Now if this man later wants to become a Christan, let alone serve as an elder, he will have to repent of his adulterous relationship, known as his "second marriage", because repentance is part of gospel obedience, and adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 6:9-11).

A person who is in an adulterous relationship, though it be known as a "second marriage", is not qualified to be an elder or deacon, because he has more than one wife.

In Christ,

bmerr