A few questions for Mormons (LDS).

Sola Scriptura wrote:

The book of Mormon claims that Jesus was born in Jerusalem rather than Bethlehem, most likely because Joseph Smith forgot where Jesus was born when he wrote it! The book of Mormon also says that communion is to be done with wine, but the Mormons use water instead.

I reply:

This is an outdated anti-Mormon argument that has recently come around full circle. The truth of the matter is that it has become a powerful evidence FOR the historicity and Hebraic nature of the origin of the BOM. Jeff Lindsay deals with this issue (as do several other prominent LDS apologists). You can review his comments here. http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml#Jerus

You will need to scroll down to the section on Jerusalem.

Thanks,

Don

 

Uncle Ray:
1. It is my understanding that heaven for a Mormon (equivalent of being saved) involves you becoming a god of your own planet. It that true?

Don:
The LDS (those who are faithful) look forward to living on this earth (glorified), in a celestial state, in the presence of God. We will become like God in several ways, but will never become His equal, nor surpass Him in any way. God is perfect.

Uncle Ray:
2. Do you believe in the Trinity?

Don:
We believe in the Godhead, which could be termed a Trinity of sorts...but obviously there are some real doctrinal differences that we have with mid-late Christian theologians on this matter.

Uncle Ray:
3. Does God reveal himself to the President of the Mormon Church?

Don:
Certainly He does. He also reveals Himself to many others, including those of numerous faiths.

Hope this helps,

Don

 

Alex:

I have a friend who got caught up in this CULT. I do not agree with their belief at all.

Don:
Sicks and stones can break my bones, but...

Alex:
They put ALL their belief in the book of Mormon and the bible is secondary as they believe that the Mormon book is God's message for the NEWER times and that most of the Bible is out of date.

Don:
This is very simply either a lie or an ignorant untruth. I hope that it is the latter.

Alex:
It is very sad to see the many who fall for this belief. To me, there, as you said, are many good people who will go to hell, as Mormons. I have only given them credit for staying so closely knitted as opposed to many of our churches, especially my Baptist friends. We should be like them in regards to being as ONE(united) and not bickering all the time. That is where we fall short in many ways. However, we are all Heaven bound.( Those who have truly accepted Jesus as Lord). Can't say the same for the Mormons.

Don:
At least you have been partially complimentry. I suggest you consider the words of the Savior that by their fruits ye shall know them.

Alex:
Another thing about them, is that most WILL NOT DEBATE. I guess that is part of their brain-washing system.

Don:
I think some LDS have learned that it is not an activity that brings a high return...with some individuals. Apparantly I am not as bright as some of them are. I am here debating afterall. As far as being brainwashed, I can guarantee that I have studied both sides of the issues. I have come to the conclusion to which I feel the evidence most heavily weighs.

Alex:
I could go on and on but without any of them getting into the heat of things, we are wasting our time.

Don:
I do not claim the same flair for long windedness, but I could probably keep pace. Go for it.

 

Ephesians 432:
The Tanners have done an incredible amount of research on the subject! It is well-documented.

Don:
Sorry to dissapoint, but most of the work that the Tanners have done has been refuted. In addition, even some serious Protestant apologists have questioned the value of their work. The base of the Tanners readers seem to be Evangelical Christians who have already made up their minds to the issues, and don't take the time to investigate the entire matter. I guess you could say that they have been brainwashed. (Big grin)

If you really are interested, with a little work, I could give some specifics.

 

DON>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I have a friend of many years who married Mormon, became a Mormon and was the Mormon Tabernacle music Engineer in SLC,UT for years. He told me that Mormons believe that all who have been born, or all that will ever be, we pre-existant as SPIRITS with God sine the beginning of time(God's time), and are on eart ONLY to be prepared for the later life in heaven. This seems far fetched and indicates that all will go to Heaven?????

Alos is the hereafter, there will be marriages, babies and all that happens in our NOW life. This all sounds like what MAN would create for his own satisfaction about the life after death. It isn't that way in the Bible. In fact there isn't much about Heaven as to how we will look or do we have a young body, etc..

This man is now an ELDER in the local church.

Finally, how come most Mormons will not get on sites such as this. You are one of a few that will. Also you refer to other websites for answers. Let the answers come from you as you have on some questions or comments.

I guess another question: Do you believe only Mormons will get to heaven?

God Bless..............Alex

PS: I Wish I could say Mormons will go, but only to hell according to the Bible we use.......

 

Hello Alex,

Thank you for the VERY cordial response. I do not take offense at people critiquing my faith, as long as it is done in a fair and honest manner. I feel that your last post was exactly that. Thanks again. Now on to the response.

Alex writes:
I have a friend of many years who married Mormon, became a Mormon and was the Mormon Tabernacle music Engineer in SLC,UT for years. He told me that Mormons believe that all who have been born, or all that will ever be, we pre-existant as SPIRITS with God sine the beginning of time(God's time), and are on eart ONLY to be prepared for the later life in heaven. This seems far fetched and indicates that all will go to Heaven?????

Don:
While I would agree with much of what you posted here, I do have some differences. We do not claim to know that we existed with God from all eternity, or as you term it, in God's time.

Alex:
Alos is the hereafter, there will be marriages, babies and all that happens in our NOW life. This all sounds like what MAN would create for his own satisfaction about the life after death. It isn't that way in the Bible. In fact there isn't much about Heaven as to how we will look or do we have a young body, etc..

Don:
I have no idea how or if "babies and all that" happens in the next life. I do believe that faithful persons will have the opportunity to have their families in eternity, and will continue to propagate offsrping in some sense. It may very well be a purely spiritual thing. I don't know.

As far as the Bible not going into any great detail on this point, you are correct. But then again, LDS do not believe that all of the "line upon line, precept upon precept" manner of God's teaching is included in the Bible, great as it is.

Alex:
This man is now an ELDER in the local church.

Don:
Offices within the priesthood do not reflect any authority to state what is or is not official LDS doctrine. I do not have this authority either, outside of pointing to the cannon. (To declare what is the doctrinal position of the church.)

Alex:
Finally, how come most Mormons will not get on sites such as this. You are one of a few that will. Also you refer to other websites for answers. Let the answers come from you as you have on some questions or comments.

Don:
I don't think that most LDS even know about sites such as this. Some of those that do, see it as a less than fruitful use of time. It has been my experience that there is a huge communication gap between Evangelicals and LDS, on both sides. Also, as a whole the LDS community is a very busy one. For example, in addition to operating a business for some 50-60 hours per week, I raise of family (4 children), am involved in church service (some 15 or so hours per week), and am involved in some limited community events and projects. It keeps me going.

I do rely on some of the work of others, just as many of you rely on the work of others. (Just on this thread alone, the Tanners have been mentioned at least twice, with a link provided to some of their work.) I think that it is important that we examine the considerations of others, and then decide for ourselves what is true and what is not. (In the end, we will all be judged according to the decisions that we make...individually, not collectively.) We use our intellect, prayer, the scriptures, reason, and the Holy Ghost to do this. (I would also add living prophets, but that would be a Quantum leap to another topic.)

Alex:
I guess another question: Do you believe only Mormons will get to heaven?

No. This is a multi-layered answer. I would be happy to cover it more fully some time. I can say that it would not surprise me at all if you were there...but I don't know you.

God Bless..............Alex
Thank you. God bless you too! Don

PS: I Wish I could say Mormons will go, but only to hell according to the Bible we use.......

Where does it say that in your Bible?

Peace!

[ June 29, 2002, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: Don Layton ]

 

BTW Alex,

There is so much good done in this world by non LDS, it would be presumptuous for any of us to attempt to pass judgement on any of you...or ourselves for that matter. Check out the following site. I assume it was an Evangelical Pastor. Good for him! It needed done!

http://www.angelrays.com/Cards/moon/1/believe.html

Don

 

I must say that I am more than a little dissapointed. I really thought that by having a Mormon come onto a board like this, you all would be like leaves on a tree in the spring...all over me.

I will not be available for the next week or so. I just didn't want you to think that I was ignoring you guys.

Don

 

When did you stop believing the Eighth Article of Faith of the LDS church, Don?

"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God." (8th article of faith)

If you believed the teachings of the Bible, you would have no need for the Book of Mormon. Why are you saying that Alex is either lying or ignorant, and then not explaining your position concerning the Bible and the Book of Mormon?

Alex, they also believe The Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price are scripture. But, no, the Book of Mormon is not for newer times.

Don, Joseph Smith said regarding the Book of Mormon, "I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man could get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts than by any other book." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 194). So we have this statement by Joseph Smith, and we have your Eighth Article of Faith which says the Bible is not translated correctly, but says you believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God with no caveat beside it. Therefore, I believe Alex is correct in saying that the Bible is regarded as secondary to the Book of Mormon in your church. Unless , you are saying that it doesn't even come in in second place, but if that is true would you please verify that? Thanks.

Ephesians

[ June 17, 2002, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: Ephesians432 ]

 

Don:
Jude 3 is a statement that THE Faith has been delivered. The Faith, of which there is one Eph. 4:4,5, was given to us in oral form first and then written down. This is harmonious with II Tim. 1:13 II Thes. 2:15 and a host of other passages. The faith was to consist of ALL truth,( Johnn 16:13). Paul said he proclaimed ALL or the WHOLE counsel of God.( Acts 20:27). Paul preached the gospel of Christ.( I Cor. 15:1-4). Paul preached the entire inspired gospel of Christ in the first century. Galatians was pewnned in or about A.D. 65. He did not preach mormonism or any ism for that matter.
2. You do not understand II Tim. 3:16,17 because you do not understand , I guess, complete ,all, throughly furnished to every or all good works. Don, if you had all the money in the world, would anyone else have any? The greek word for once delivered is HAPAX. This word means once, one time, WITHOUT NEED FOR ADDITION. Can a man be prefect and complete unto every good work with incomplete instructions? God says ,NO!. He gave ALL!.( II Pet. 1:3, II Tim. 3:16,17).
3. There is NO Authority for the bom. Jesus commanded ALL. ( Mat. 28:18-20). He did not command thebom.
4. The Whole or All truth was promised to the 12.( John 16:13). This means there is NO spiritual truth fro Jopeseph Smith to receive.
5. Paul preched the unchanging gospel of Jesus Christ in his lifetime. He charged others not to preach any other gospel. The bom is NOt to be acceted as ANOTHER testament of Jesus Christ, esle Paul would have preached it.( Gal.1:6-8).
6. Miraculous reveltaions have ceased, that is according to God;s word.( I Cor. 13:8-13, Eph. 4:11-16, Acts 8:17,18).
7.The bom oppsoes the teachings of the New Testament of Jesus Christ.
a. Lord's Supper. ( Mat.26:26-29,Luke 22:18,Mark 14:25, Acts 10:41).Fruit oif the Vine ,not water.
b. Singing. ( Eph. 5:19. Col. 3:16, Acts 16:25,26, Hebs. 2:12, I or, 14:15, Romans 15:9, Mat. 26:30). Singing , not playing - singing.
c. Subjection of Women. ( ITim. 2:11,12). Men are to teach with women in subjection , not the opposite.
d. Giving.( I Cor. 16:1,2). give as we are prospered , not tithing.
Frank

 

This is a message for Don Layton. In order to debate their must be dialogue. Reading this thread has the feel of being preached too. My guess is that if it continues you will be the only one left in the thread.
God bless
Mark in Tx

 

Well, so far, I haven't noticed any major errors. When I discuss Mormonism, I prefer to quote from your prophets. And from what I have looked at at Utah Lighthouse Ministry, that's what the Tanners do. I beg to differ with you when you say most of their work has been refuted. How do you refute what your prophets have said? Why would you refute it??? Also, one should be very careful about washing someone's brain! God's word is truth and from that I mustn't stray. It is a lamp unto my feet.

Anyway, I appreciate your taking part in this discussion, Don.

 

Mr. Layton,
Hello, I have a friend who was a Mormon for many years. She was Italian and Ethiopian. She appeared only white in color so was allowed to become a member. She told me that one thing that turned her away from Mormomism was that they would say that black people are not as good as whites and are not allowed in the "church," until one day, I am not sure when they decided that black people were allowed to join. Why is it that one day they were excluded than the next they were included? Anyway, this change helped her to see that Mormonism was not the truth and she eventually became born again.
Also, you claim that the book of Mormon is part of the Word of God. Why then is Jesus called a murderer in this book? Which is He? Is He a murderer as Joseph Smith wrote or is He the Son of God who takes away the sins of the world who never hurt any person? Why the contradiction? In 3 Nephi 9:15 we are told that, "Jesus Christ the Son of God," was responsible for the murders of innocent women and children.
Mormom leaders admit that they believe in another Jesus. "It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons." (Ensign, May 77, pg.26) So, from the mouths of Mormom leaders we have heard that they admit they believe in another Jesus.
The "church" of Mormom declares that Jesus became a god. But, this contradicts God's Word in John 1 we are told the truth about Jesus that He is and was and always will be God.
Mr. Layton, I ask you to consider turning to the Jesus of the Bible. Have you ever studied the Book of John in God's Word? It is not too late. He loves you and wants you to be saved. All you have to do is turn to Him and repent of all your sins. He will save you. He is the One and Only True Christ. There is only One True Jesus Christ, the Messiah. And He is God.

 

Quite simply:

There is no other name given under heaven whereby we must be saved. That at the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess Jesus as Lord to the glory of God the Father."

Sorry, not Joseph Smith. Jesus only and we both know that deep study of the Morman faith reveals the belief that your church espouses the idea that Jesus and Satan were brothers. Also that your denomination doesn't believe that salvation is provided by Jesus because the LDS don't believe that Jesus was the son of God. They believe he was a great man and a prophet.

 

Seems like Don Layton, our Mormon friend, has been gone for more than a few days.......But maybe on vacation or beefing up on Mormon values so he can debate with Christians. Well, time will tell!

God Bless to all.......Alex

 

For more on Mormons and some responses go to this BaptistBoard thread: http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=000801&p=.

God Bless........Alex

PS: CU soon, Don!!

 

I just got back late last night from a wonderful vacation. I thought I would check in to see if anything had happened in my absence. There have been a number of replies, so I would like to have a chance to respond. Please be patient, as my time is limited.

Frank asked:
When did you stop believing the Eighth Article of Faith of the LDS church, Don?

Don replies:
I didn't. To say that we put "ALL their belief in the book of Mormon and the bible is secondary" is clearly out of touch with the 8th article of faith.

Frank:
If you believed the teachings of the Bible, you would have no need for the Book of Mormon.

Don:
I disagree. The Bible does not "close the book" on the word of God. There is nothing in the Bible to support your assumption. I believe that to truly believe the Bible REQUIRES the acceptance of the Book of Mormon.

Frank:
Why are you saying that Alex is either lying or ignorant, and then not explaining your position concerning the Bible and the Book of Mormon?

Don: Two reasons...first and primarily, I don't put "ALL" of my belief in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or any other portion of God's word. Second, the Bible is not secondary to the Book of Mormon in LDS theology. It is true that we do not ascribe to the infallibility of the Bible, but that is a separate issue. As far as my comments to Alex, lying was perhaps a little strong. I would like to rephrase that to not understanding my position on the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

I hope that this helps,

Don

 

Frank wrote:
Jude 3 is a statement that THE Faith has been delivered. The Faith, of which there is one Eph. 4:4,5, was given to us in oral form first and then written down.

Don answers:
Your interpretation of Jude is not what I read there. I read that in some previous epistle that has been lost (another example of writings that some of the apostles felt were important that we no longer have), Jude had outlined the faith that had been given to the Saints. I do not read anything of exclusivity, and to do so would discount the remainder of the Bible as we have it today...unless you are contending that in that epistle, Jude included the entire writings of the current Bible.

Frank:
This is harmonious with II Tim. 1:13...

Don:
II Tim. 1:13 says, " Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus." I feel that it is quite a stretch to imply that this passage declares the cannon complete with a Bible that had not even been assembled.

Frank:
...II Thes. 2:15 and a host of other passages.

Don:
II Thes. 2:15 says, "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." And yet the apostles continued to write additional works that later became cannonized. Again, this passage seems to support the LDS position.

Frank:
The faith was to consist of ALL truth,( Johnn 16:13).

Don:
You are wresting the scripture. The Holy Ghost would guide into all truth. Read the passage. This supports the LDS position.

Frank:
Paul said he proclaimed ALL or the WHOLE counsel of God.( Acts 20:27).

Don:
If you are really implying that Paul taught everything that should be included in the cannon, then you had better rip out about 90% of your Bible. Again, I read the passage, and your interpretation is quite a stretch.

Frank:
Paul preached the gospel of Christ.( I Cor. 15:1-4).

Don:
On this we agree.

Frank:
Paul preached the entire inspired gospel of Christ in the first century.

Don:
You have not established that claim.

Frank:
Galatians was pewnned in or about A.D. 65. He did not preach mormonism or any ism for that matter.

Don:
This logic is akin to a first century Jew claiming that Moses did not preach Christianity. As I read the Bible, I find the principles of "Mormonism" supported. I realize that you do not...but I and millions others do.

Frank:
2. You do not understand II Tim. 3:16,17 because you do not understand , I guess, complete ,all, throughly furnished to every or all good works.

Don:
There is a myriad of assumptions here on your part. First, where does Timothy limit "scripture" to the 66 books you are willing to accept? You then tie in "Hapax" to the Timothy passage. It does not contain that word. It is contained in the Jude verse that you previously mentioned. This is the meaning of Hapax that I extracted from my Greek Lexicon.

1a) once, one time
1b) once for all
1c) both once and again, twice, several times, repeatedly

If the gospel was once delivered to the Saints, under your definition of "once", how in the world would that preclude additional scripture being given? Also see my previous comments on Jude.

TBC...

Don

 

Continuation:

Frank:
3. There is NO Authority for the bom. Jesus commanded ALL. ( Mat. 28:18-20). He did not command thebom.

Don:
1.The passage does not say what you imply.
2. John 10:16 and other verses in the Bible would indicate that Jesus did have words for other sheep.
3. The Book of Mormon testifies that Jesus did teach His other sheep.

Frank:
4. The Whole or All truth was promised to the 12.( John 16:13). This means there is NO spiritual truth fro Jopeseph Smith to receive.

Don:
See previous comments on Jn. 16:13. I do not read anything close to what you are implying.

Frank:
5. Paul preched the unchanging gospel of Jesus Christ in his lifetime. He charged others not to preach any other gospel. The bom is NOt to be acceted as ANOTHER testament of Jesus Christ, esle Paul would have preached it.( Gal.1:6-8).

Don:
See previous comments.

Frank:
6. Miraculous reveltaions have ceased, that is according to God;s word.( I Cor. 13:8-13, Eph. 4:11-16, Acts 8:17,18).

Don:
You would even have a difficult time convincing many Evangelical Christians that God does not continue to reveal Himself today. Can I ask you something? Do you pray? If so, why? Does God hear you? Does He answer your prayers? If so, how can you remain consistent in your argument? If not, why not?

Frank:
7.The bom oppsoes the teachings of the New Testament of Jesus Christ.
a. Lord's Supper. ( Mat.26:26-29,Luke 22:18,Mark 14:25, Acts 10:41).Fruit oif the Vine ,not water.

Don:
Actually the Book of Mormon declares that wine be used. The D & C allows for the use of other substances in place of wine...such as water. (D & C 27).

Frank:
b. Singing. ( Eph. 5:19. Col. 3:16, Acts 16:25,26, Hebs. 2:12, I or, 14:15, Romans 15:9, Mat. 26:30). Singing , not playing - singing.

Don:
We DO sing...and I do not read anywhere that accompaniment was prohibited. Even if it were, I suggest that cultural issues were the reason.

Frank:
c. Subjection of Women. ( ITim. 2:11,12). Men are to teach with women in subjection , not the opposite.

Don:
Do you really want to go here?

Frank:
d. Giving.( I Cor. 16:1,2). give as we are prospered , not tithing.

Don:
Tithing is a Biblical principle. Early Saints also had all things in common.


In short, Frank, and with all due respect, I personally find your interpretations quite a stretch. From one who would probably insist that all authority come from the Bible, you have allowed a very narrow latitude in interpretation... one that I do not see. May God bless you.

Don

 

Mark wrote:
This is a message for Don Layton. In order to debate their must be dialogue. Reading this thread has the feel of being preached too. My guess is that if it continues you will be the only one left in the thread.

Don Replies:
Funny thing...your description is exactly how I feel in reverse. I hope that I do not come off too preachy. I DO hope to vehemently defend my firm conviction of truth. Please forgive me if I sound too aggressive. (I am cursed with an "A" personality! - Smile - ) BTW, if I am the only one left, I win by default, right? LOVE to all of you Firm in the Faith Baptists out there!

Don