A 'Former Calvinist' Admits "Arminianism is so much more appealing to worldly people.

[russell55]

According to Calvinists, it doesn't matter what you do. You're either going to heaven or hell, it was decided years ago. If you're Charles Manson you might end up in heaven simply because you were chosen to.

This statement is absolutely untrue. Calvinists believe that it matters very much that someone believes, because if they didn't they wouldn't be justified. God brings all those he chooses to faith, so there will be none who are rebellious to the end among those who end up in heaven.

According to non-Calvinists - you MUST surrender your life to Christ to be saved.

According to Calvinsts, too.

 

[russell55]

You don't suppose any of them were ordained that didn't believe do you?

Nope. "[A]ll who had been ordained for eternal life believed."

 

[2BHizown]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Timothy27,

We understand. Wash the pig clean and put a ribbon around Calvin's neck and people might think he had a pure soul and for sure a purity of Christian doctrine.

One point for the Calvinists.

One must finally come to an understanding that it is not John Calvin that we worship but that he was the one that so concisely described the biblical doctrines that scripture brings to us! He was only one that saw this purity. Of course there were others. Many people that are not biblical followers of Christ do not see this grace and mercy and can be at times most critical of those who do! This is sad as you'd think they would be so busy searching the bible to verify and/or validate the scriptures so that they too would see God's great attributes and humbly come to Him in gratitude for His most gracious offer!

 

[Ray Berrian]

2BHizown,

Your biggest error in your post is when you said we do not 'humbly come to Him in gratitude for His most gracious offer.'

You have tried to bunch up a lot of Christians and say we do not humbly receive and welcome His free gift of eternal life. One of the first things I learned in college was not to make broad generalizations.

You probably have committed the sin of trying to read human beings minds and hearts as to whether they are humble enough, as to your standards. The only standard of being humble enough is what Christ thinks about our inner lives of humility.

Some Calvinists know the talk but might not have salvation at all, especially if they believe in God's decretive salvation, apart from the human response of faith in Jesus.

The writer of Hebrews in chapter 4:2 writes about people who heard the true Gospel but did not 'mix faith' with the hearing of His message of salvation and hope, thus accomplishing nothing in their hearts and lives. Being saved demands a response to the Lord's calling to salvation [Acts 2:21].

 

[timothy27]

Thank you everyone for defending the fact that it matters very much to reformists agree that you have to believe, to be saved. It is aggravating that people who do not understand the reformed belief try to tell us what we believe.

Thanks Russel55, 2bhizown, ans etc.

 

[Ray Berrian]

timothy27,

In Philadelphia I had a Five Point Calvinist professor who received his doctorate from Westminister Theological Seminary try to tell us that God decrees some to Heaven and Hell. Dr. Rudolph was a wild predestinarian at the time at Reformed Episcopal Seminary on Chestnut Street. There was a church and seminary there combined into one building.

Now if this doctrine were true the concept of believing in Jesus could be unnecessary, because what is done by a sovereign God cannot be contended against His judgment. Some will become saved through His decree and others will get the 'low road' to the gates of a fiery Hell.

A person's choice to believe and trust in Jesus becomes unnecessary and bogus.

 

[Ray Berrian]

When a king makes a decree, he does not then say well you can do as you deem necessary or what seems necessary to you. The king's decree requires nothing but listening to his ruling.

You guys cannot have it both ways. If He decrees salvation, the step of believing is unnecessary. But since you see the need of believing in the scheme of salvation in the N.T., you would like to have it both ways.

Yes, Jesus requires that sinners believe in Him [John 3:16].

 

[Robert J Hutton]

Post deleted for being off topic. This forum is about theology. Please take historical discussions to the appropriate forum. Keep this forum focused on the theology of Scripture ... What God says.

[ October 27, 2005, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

If He decrees salvation, the step of believing is unnecessary

At the risk of repeating what has been long known by everybody but you apparently, belief has also been decreed and therefore is absolutely necessary. How can you not know this "Dr." Berrian??? This is basic common knowledge. How can you not know this already?

 

[Sularis]

Ahhh - but the belief was forcefed - not even you had/have your own belief - God gave it to you - God keeps it in you - where is belief?

Belief will not be found when the Son of Man comes again - unless of course He gets frustrated and puts it there

 

[BobRyan]

In the following like we see the errors of Calvinism as they produce agnosticism and the attempt made by this Arminian to undo the damage it has done.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3442/5.html#000061

 

[Hardsheller]

I've pastored a lot of Arminians in my 25 years as a SBC pastor.

I'd have to say when it comes to Personal Evangelism that most of them are "Practicing Calvinists".

They believe that if People are going to get saved then God's going to have to do it - because they sure don't witness."

 

[2BHizown]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
I've pastored a lot of Arminians in my 25 years as a SBC pastor.

I'd have to say when it comes to Personal Evangelism that most of them are "Practicing Calvinists".

They believe that if People are going to get saved then God's going to have to do it - because they sure don't witness."

What a really strange thing to say! Calvinists believe that God saves sinners and uses means to do so, which is their witness and preaching! God is sovereign and can use any means He so chooses to save sinners! I am so thankful HE used the preaching of the Word to save me! Only by His great mercy and grace is one saved and only by His choice before the foundation of the world!

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
I've pastored a lot of Arminians in my 25 years as a SBC pastor.

I'd have to say when it comes to Personal Evangelism that most of them are "Practicing Calvinists".

They believe that if People are going to get saved then God's going to have to do it - because they sure don't witness."

Saying that God is sovereign and active and the first cause "God so LOVED -- that HE GAVE" is NOT UNIQUE to EITHER Calvinism or Arminianism.

What "Evangelism" would have been "unique" to those Arminians you pastored?

Obviously if they told all in the group that came to the evangelistic series that "God LOVES YOU and He LOVED you so much that He gave His Son for you" -- then that would have been ARMINIAN not Calvinism BECAUSE ONLY ARMINIANISM can be confident that God actually loves ALL!! And IF they had "APPEALED FOR DECISIONS" like Paul does in 2Cor 5 "WE BEG you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God!" Then THAT would have been Arminianism not Calvinism.

Did those Arminians do that? In fact did YOU use those Arminian methods as well "in spite" of your Calvinism?

By CONTRAST a PURE Calvinist model have said

"God MIGHT love SOME of you here today - we are not sure if the elect even showed up tonight - we certainly hope that God caused at least some of the elect to be here. We would love to say that God loves you ALL because God loves ALL -- but that simply is not true.

If all of you accept Christ today then there is a good chance that some of you are really sincere and are elect. But even if all of you reject Christ today we don't know but that in the future you all might accept Christ so you could still theoretically all be elect and therefore all loved by God here today. We are Calvinists - we just don't know!"

The fact that you would willing expose this gaping flaw in Calvinism on the subject of evangelism on this thread - is a testament either to the convicting of God's Holy Spirit in your life against your determination to "Be Calvinist anyway" or it is a testament to your ability to honestly believe your own stories even though as in this case -- it will expose the flaws of Calvinism to the light of day!

In Christ,

Bob