A good question

[Van]

So, a commentator says “hastening the coming of Christ” is PROBABLY correct and based on “probably” an extensive end times doctrine is proclaimed where Christians are determining when Christ returns and how many people go to heaven.

Please notice the commentator elaborates on his comment saying Peter’s view is to “accomplish the number of elect”.

So, the commentator quoted does not agree with the OP’s statement of lessening the number of people not going to heaven and any “hastening the return of Christ” is seen as accomplishing the redemption of the elect.

Another failed attempt to disprove Calvinism.

peace to you

Folks, once again this post adds to what is said, making truth into falsehood!!
Did anyone say our efforts to hurry the day of Christ's return "determine" when He will return? Nope.
Did anyone say our effort is not to "accomplish the number of elect?" Nope
Did the quoted commentary disagree with the logical necessity that if we shorted the time to reach the number we shorten the number that miss the narrow way? Nope
Did the quoted commentary say our efforts to hurry Christ's return were "accomplishing the redemption of the elect?" Nope

On and on folks falsehoods to defend falsehoods.

 

[Van]

2 Peter 3 tells us about hastening God's judgment. How is that judgment, by fire, upon the servants of the beast "hastened?"
It is hastened by our holy living, in comparison to their godless living. How is our holy living hastening that day, Van? That is the question of 2 Peter 3.
Tell us where "tilling the ground and watering" is found in 2 Peter 3, Van. Can you acknowledge that you are reading into the chapter what the chapter does not explicitly or implicitly state?

1) Did anyone say "tilling the ground, planting and watering is found explicitly in 2 Peter 3? Nope
2) Does hurrying our Lord's return hurry His coming judgment? Probably.
3) Does our diligent evangelism necessarily shorten the time till Christ's return? No, but that is the activity we are supposed to engage in for that and other purposes.

 

[canadyjd]

Folks, once again this post adds to what is said, making truth into falsehood!!….o

It is astonishing the OP can make a claim about adding to what was said and turning truth into falsehood with no sense of self awareness that is exactly what has been done in this thread.

2 Peter 3 mentions “godly living”. The OP claims evangelism is part of godly living and therefore it is evangelism that “haters the day” and lessens the number of people not going to heaven even though neither of those ideas are mentioned.

That is clearly adding to what is said to claim a doctrine not taught in the text. That is changing God’s word and presenting falsehood as truth.

I am confident anyone without extreme bias toward the doctrines of grace can easily see the manipulation of the text by the OP.

peace to you

 

[Van]

I'm pretty much saying that God is saying that, and it is supported by Scripture.

Yet another false claim, another 'taint so" but no meat on those bones.

 

[canadyjd]

…..
3) Does our diligent evangelism necessarily shorten the time till Christ's return? No…..

This entire thread is based on that premise which is now denied. This is from post #1.

Here is the heart-felt question of one believer -
...do 'slacking soul-winners' result in MORE people going to hell? ...

...do diligent soul-winners result in MORE people going to heaven?
The Exhaustive Determinist answer is no, God determined those going to heaven, and thus the rest not going to heaven before creation.

The Scriptural answer is yes, diligent evangelism "hastens the day" thus more people per time interval, so the end of the age occurs sooner, resulting in less people not going to heaven.

Two very different gospels...

So not only is the original premise of the thread now denied, but the OP has no self awareness he accused people who believe what he now acknowledges as truth to having a “very different gospel”.

Please apologize for claiming a “very different gospel” was believed since you now acknowledge the Truth of God’s word.

peace to you

 

[Van]

It is astonishing the OP can make a claim about adding to what was said and turning truth into falsehood with no sense of self awareness that is exactly what has been done in this thread.

2 Peter 3 mentions “godly living”. The OP claims evangelism is part of godly living and therefore it is evangelism that “haters the day” and lessens the number of people not going to heaven even though neither of those ideas are mentioned.

That is clearly adding to what is said to claim a doctrine not taught in the text. That is changing God’s word and presenting falsehood as truth.

I am confident anyone without extreme bias toward the doctrines of grace can easily see the manipulation of the text by the OP.

peace to you

Once again false charges but no substance!
Hurrying the day is mentioned, holy living and godliness are mentioned and to deny that refer to hurrying the day of our Lord's return is nonsense, or that godly living excludes engaging in diligent evangelism is nonsense. Or the claim that the impact of shortening the time to our Lord's return will not impact the number of the many missing the narrow path is also nonsense.

 

[Van]

This entire thread is based on that premise which is now denied. This is from post #1.

So not only is the original premise of the thread now denied, but the OP has no self awareness he accused people who believe what he now acknowledges as truth to having a “very different gospel”.

Please apologize for claiming a “very different gospel” was believed since you now acknowledge the Truth of God’s word.

peace to you

We are on page 4 and just now this poster reads the OP? The premise is we are to engage in evangelism, even though our efforts may or may not earn rewards, i.e. be effective in shortening the time.

Of course those who hold different gospels hold different gospels! Duh

Finally this poster posts like the Pharisee's claims about the Publican.

 

[canadyjd]

Once again false charges but no substance!
Hurrying the day is mentioned, holy living and godliness are mentioned and to deny that refer to hurrying the day of our Lord's return is nonsense, or that godly living excludes engaging in diligent evangelism is nonsense. Or the claim that the impact of shortening the time to our Lord's return will not impact the number of the many missing the narrow path is also nonsense.

Logical fallacy after logical fallacy. Utter nonsense.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

We are on page 4 and just now this poster reads the OP? The premise is we are to engage in evangelism, even though our efforts may or may not earn rewards, i.e. be effective in shortening the time.

Of course those who hold different gospels hold different gospels! Duh

Finally this poster posts like the Pharisee's claims about the Publican.

More personal attacks even after the OP acknowledges the premise of the thread is untrue.

An amazing display of guile.

peace to you

 

[Van]

On day a Calvinist is going to surprise me and actually address my view, rather than a strawman misrepresentation.

Do slacking soul-winners result in more people going to Hades and Gehenna? Yes according to scripture.
Do diligent soul-winners result in more people going to heaven? The time to reach the number God has set for members of His people is unchanged, but the time to reach that number is decreased.
The Exhaustive Determinist view is unbiblical and wrong.

Is eternal salvation of God's people in their hands. If I had a nickel for every time a Calvinist has made that false charge, I could go to the store.

Did anyone say or suggest Jesus is dead? Nope. That Jesus sacrifice was in vain? Nope. That pen, ink and paper could save someone? Nope.

The Triune God saves those of His choosing.

Did the poster say why it is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom than someone more needful? Nope

With God, all salvations are indeed possible.

Human witnesses acting as ambassadors of Christ, till ground, plant, water and these actions are used by God to increase the harvest.

Unless you believe in a different gospel.

 

[canadyjd]

Several posters specifically addressed the question of the OP, demonstrating the error from scripture.

The response from the OP is personal attacks, mocking, false accusations, and even denial of what the OP has stated during the conversation..

A waste of time. I am bowing out.

peace to you

 

[AustinC]

1) Did anyone say "tilling the ground, planting and watering is found explicitly in 2 Peter 3? Nope

Why bring up 2 Peter 3 at all then since you now are removing your assertion from the verse you quoted?

2) Does hurrying our Lord's return hurry His coming judgment? Probably.

What does 2 Peter 3 tells you? At least there is progress. You say "probably."

3) Does our diligent evangelism necessarily shorten the time till Christ's return? No, but that is the activity we are supposed to engage in for that and other purposes.

No one disagrees that we Christians are to be actively engaged in making disciples, being ambassadors of reconciliation, and many other commands given to us by our King.

 

[Van]

Why bring up 2 Peter 3 at all then since you now are removing your assertion from the verse you quoted?
What does 2 Peter 3 tells you? At least there is progress. You say "probably."
No one disagrees that we Christians are to be actively engaged in making disciples, being ambassadors of reconciliation, and many other commands given to us by our King.

1) I have explained the position 6 ways from Sunday and still this poster claims the position is beyond his grasp. Go figure

2) Human witnesses acting as ambassadors of Christ, till ground, plant, water and these actions are used by God to increase the harvest.

3) 2Pe 3:11-12

Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!​

"Holy conduct and godliness includes diligent evangelism, and therefore "hastens the coming of t he day of God. Diligent evangelism includes tilling the ground, planting and watering.

4) What the Exhaustive Determinists deny is that evangelism with more laborers will result in more harvest, that God uses His witnesses rather than their made up supernatural tractor beam called "irresistible grace."

5) Do the actions of effective witnesses cause people to be saved? Nope
If our contribution to leading a person to Christ is effective did we "win' or gain" an eternal reward? Hypothetically.
Are we as servants of Christ supposed to try? You bet.

 

[AustinC]

1) I have explained the position 6 ways from Sunday and still this poster claims the position is beyond his grasp. Go figure

Irrelevant. You are generally wrong 6 ways from Sunday so it's not beyond our grasp, but it is beyond your grasp to admit you are wrong

2) Human witnesses acting as ambassadors of Christ, till ground, plant, water and these actions are used by God to increase the harvest.

Read the parable of the soils (sower) again as it seems you don't understand what Jesus is telling you.
You mix metaphors. Nowhere does the Bible say that ambassadors are farmers.

God is the sower. We are the soil. God tosses the seeds. We, the soil, receive the seed. Who determines its growth?

3) 2Pe 3:11-12

Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!​

"Holy conduct and godliness includes diligent evangelism, and therefore "hastens the coming of t he day of God. Diligent evangelism includes tilling the ground, planting and watering.

The coming Day of God is God's judgment on the world by fire.
Holy conduct and godliness hastens the destruction of the world by showing the world the clear difference between God's children and those enslaved to Sin (the Devil). There is nothing said about tilling the ground or evangelism in 2 Peter 3:11-12. There is no connection there to your own assertion.

Please acknowledge this reality.

4) What the Exhaustive Determinists deny is that evangelism with more laborers will result in more harvest, that God uses His witnesses rather than their made up supernatural tractor beam called "irresistible grace."

Has God written the names into the Book of Life from before the foundation of the world?

Revelation 13:8
And all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Revelation 3:5
The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

Revelation 21:27
But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

5) Do the actions of effective witnesses cause people to be saved? Nope

Agreed

If our contribution to leading a person to Christ is effective did we "win' or gain" an eternal reward? Hypothetically.

Indeed, God knows and we cannot assert what we don't know.

Are we as servants of Christ supposed to try? You bet.

We are to obey God and try reconcile others to our King. Absolutely.

 

[Van]

1) I have explained the position 6 ways from Sunday and still this poster claims the position is beyond his grasp. Go figure how he knows the view is wrong.

2) Human witnesses acting as ambassadors of Christ, till ground, plant, water and these actions are used by God to increase the harvest. Did I say ambassadors are farmers or that ambassadors aid in the harvest as laborers?

3) 2Pe 3:11-12

Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!​

"Holy conduct and godliness includes diligent evangelism, and therefore "hastens the coming of the day of God. Diligent evangelism includes tilling the ground, planting and watering. The coming day of God refers to the Second Coming at the close of the age.

4) What the Exhaustive Determinists deny is that evangelism with more laborers will result in more harvest, that God uses His witnesses rather than their made up supernatural tractor beam called "irresistible grace." And they will cite mistranslations to support falsehood such as names being written in the Lamb's book of life before rather than since the creation.

5) Do the actions of effective witnesses cause people to be saved? Nope
If our contribution to leading a person to Christ is effective did we "win' or gain" an eternal reward? Hypothetically.
Are we as servants of Christ supposed to try? You bet. We do not know if our rewards will burn up or be cause for us to enter heaven "abundantly."

 

[AustinC]

1) I have explained the position 6 ways from Sunday and still this poster claims the position is beyond his grasp. Go figure how he knows the view is wrong.

2) Human witnesses acting as ambassadors of Christ, till ground, plant, water and these actions are used by God to increase the harvest. Did I say ambassadors are farmers or that ambassadors aid in the harvest as laborers?

3) 2Pe 3:11-12

Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!​

"Holy conduct and godliness includes diligent evangelism, and therefore "hastens the coming of the day of God. Diligent evangelism includes tilling the ground, planting and watering. The coming day of God refers to the Second Coming at the close of the age.

4) What the Exhaustive Determinists deny is that evangelism with more laborers will result in more harvest, that God uses His witnesses rather than their made up supernatural tractor beam called "irresistible grace." And they will cite mistranslations to support falsehood such as names being written in the Lamb's book of life before rather than since the creation.

5) Do the actions of effective witnesses cause people to be saved? Nope
If our contribution to leading a person to Christ is effective did we "win' or gain" an eternal reward? Hypothetically.
Are we as servants of Christ supposed to try? You bet. We do not know if our rewards will burn up or be cause for us to enter heaven "abundantly."

Irrelevant. You are generally wrong 6 ways from Sunday so it's not beyond our grasp, but it is beyond your grasp to admit you are wrong


Read the parable of the soils (sower) again as it seems you don't understand what Jesus is telling you.
You mix metaphors. Nowhere does the Bible say that ambassadors are farmers.

God is the sower. We are the soil. God tosses the seeds. We, the soil, receive the seed. Who determines its growth?


The coming Day of God is God's judgment on the world by fire.
Holy conduct and godliness hastens the destruction of the world by showing the world the clear difference between God's children and those enslaved to Sin (the Devil). There is nothing said about tilling the ground or evangelism in 2 Peter 3:11-12. There is no connection there to your own assertion.

Please acknowledge this reality.


Has God written the names into the Book of Life from before the foundation of the world?

Revelation 13:8
And all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Revelation 3:5
The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

Revelation 21:27
But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


Agreed


Indeed, God knows and we cannot assert what we don't know.


We are to obey God and try reconcile others to our King. Absolutely.

 

[Van]

1) I have explained the position 6 ways from Sunday and still this poster claims the position is beyond his grasp. Go figure how he knows the view is wrong.

2) Human witnesses acting as ambassadors of Christ, till ground, plant, water and these actions are used by God to increase the harvest. Did I say ambassadors are farmers or that ambassadors aid in the harvest as laborers?

3) 2Pe 3:11-12

Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!​

"Holy conduct and godliness includes diligent evangelism, and therefore "hastens the coming of the day of God. Diligent evangelism includes tilling the ground, planting and watering. The coming day of God refers to the Second Coming at the close of the age.

4) What the Exhaustive Determinists deny is that evangelism with more laborers will result in more harvest, that God uses His witnesses rather than their made up supernatural tractor beam called "irresistible grace." And they will cite mistranslations to support falsehood such as names being written in the Lamb's book of life before rather than since the creation.

5) Do the actions of effective witnesses cause people to be saved? Nope
If our contribution to leading a person to Christ is effective did we "win' or gain" an eternal reward? Hypothetically.
Are we as servants of Christ supposed to try? You bet. We do not know if our rewards will burn up or be cause for us to enter heaven "abundantly."

 

[RipponRedeaux]

Van has short-term memory loss. He tends to forget even within posting the same drivel 14 minutes beforehand.

 

[AustinC]

1) I have explained the position 6 ways from Sunday and still this poster claims the position is beyond his grasp. Go figure how he knows the view is wrong.

2) Human witnesses acting as ambassadors of Christ, till ground, plant, water and these actions are used by God to increase the harvest. Did I say ambassadors are farmers or that ambassadors aid in the harvest as laborers?

3) 2Pe 3:11-12

Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!​

"Holy conduct and godliness includes diligent evangelism, and therefore "hastens the coming of the day of God. Diligent evangelism includes tilling the ground, planting and watering. The coming day of God refers to the Second Coming at the close of the age.

4) What the Exhaustive Determinists deny is that evangelism with more laborers will result in more harvest, that God uses His witnesses rather than their made up supernatural tractor beam called "irresistible grace." And they will cite mistranslations to support falsehood such as names being written in the Lamb's book of life before rather than since the creation.

5) Do the actions of effective witnesses cause people to be saved? Nope
If our contribution to leading a person to Christ is effective did we "win' or gain" an eternal reward? Hypothetically.
Are we as servants of Christ supposed to try? You bet. We do not know if our rewards will burn up or be cause for us to enter heaven "abundantly."

Do you think that ignoring what I wrote in post #74 and #76 will somehow refute my points? Perhaps you think no one reads the past posts so that new readers won't see how you have been answered.
Ignoring what has been addressed only shows that you have no argument against what I have posted to you.

 

[Van]

Do you think that ignoring what I wrote in post #74 and #76 will somehow refute my points? Perhaps you think no one reads the past posts so that new readers won't see how you have been answered.
Ignoring what has been addressed only shows that you have no argument against what I have posted to you.

Do YOU think addressing me and running from the topic demonstrates your house of cards?