A Highly Interesting Article

[Amy.G]

I am saying the Holy Spirit is at work on an unbeliever prior to the permenant indwelling that takes place at salvation.

That work includes regeneration, which frees the unbeliever from the enslavement to sin and allows them to see the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

That person is able then respond with repentance and faith unto salvation, and then they shall recieve Holy Spirit indwelling.

peace to youraying:

G3824
παλιγγενεσία
paliggenesia
pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah
From G3825 and G1078; (spiritual) rebirth (the state or the act), that is, (figuratively) spiritual renovation; specifically Messianic restoration: - regeneration.

Regeneration is not just an opening of one's understanding. It is to be "born again". To be raised from death to life in Christ.

You have just stated that a person is born again before they believe. That is not biblical.

 

[preachinjesus]

Maybe its not up to us to understand the mechanics of salvation but to enjoy the benefits and participate with others in glorifying the One who gives us this free gift.

 

[webdog]

Maybe its not up to us to understand the mechanics of salvation but to enjoy the benefits and participate with others in glorifying the One who gives us this free gift.

I think an understanding is needed in order to fulfill the Great Commission.

 

[canadyjd]

I didn't say you said anything about typos. I was apologizing in advance for errors in my post.

I apologize. I misunderstood your post.

No, my comments on the verse stand unrefuted. In your blind rage over being embarrassed, you are grasping at any straw you can get your hands on.

This is what you said:

BaptistBob said: No, the passage simply means that the ways of believers cannot be controlled or predicted. Read Calvinists D. A. Carson (my old prof.) and Tenney (among others) on this issue. It will probably be easier to accept coming from Calvinists.

I responded by quoting from Carson's commentary:

Carson,D.A., The Gospel According to John, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1991, pp197-198.

(Concerning John 3:8)
"The point is that the wind can be neither controlled nor understood by human beings...But that does not mean we cannot detect the wind's effect...So it is with the Spirit. We can neither control Him nor understand Him. But that does not mean we cannot witness his effects. Where the Spirit works, the effects are undeniable and unmistakeable...

....So it is with everyone born of the Spirit. The person who is 'born of the Spirit' can neither be controlled nor understood by persons of but one birth. As the 'water and spirit' birth is grounded in Ezekiel 36:25-27.... so there may be an allusion here to Ezekiel 37. There God's breath/Spirit comes upon the valley of dry bones and the dry bones are revived; God's people come to life. Thus it is with everyone born of the Spirit; they have their 'origin and destiny in the unseen God'....not in 'human decision or a husband's will, for they are 'born of God.'"
(emphasis mine)

It is clear that anyone can look at what you claimed Carson believed with what he says in his commentary and find that you inaccurately represented his beliefs concerning John 3:8.

BTW, any "blind rage" you see from me is a figment of your imagination.

First off, your comments to Amy said that the verse says that we must be regenerated and "born again" prior to faith. Carson says believers were not born again at that time because Christ had not died and risen.

You have misunderstood Carson. Carson is not making an argument for or against regeneration prior to faith in that particular paragraph.

The context of his statement was the charge that Jesus was commanding Nic at night to do something not possible (be born again) because Holy Spirit would not be given until after His death and resurrection.

The new life to come will be different, and believers will not be controlled or predicted because of the influence of the Holy Spirit. That was the context of my statement, which was not intended to be an outline of the entire passage.

You said:

No, the passage simply means that the ways of believers cannot be controlled or predicted. Read Calvinists D. A. Carson (my old prof.) and Tenney (among others) on this issue.

That is giving a summary (inaccurate summary) of the passage and attributing that belief to Carson, which is clearly untrue.

But my comments on the rest of the passage both compliment what I had already said and continue to decimate your argument.

Your comments continue to mislead and distort the beliefs of Carson. To that end, they compliment your earlier statements.

Again, I have no anger toward you. If you percieve any, you are mistaken.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

G3824
παλιγγενεσία
paliggenesia
pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah
From G3825 and G1078; (spiritual) rebirth (the state or the act), that is, (figuratively) spiritual renovation; specifically Messianic restoration: - regeneration.

Regeneration is not just an opening of one's understanding. It is to be "born again". To be raised from death to life in Christ.

You have just stated that a person is born again before they believe. That is not biblical.

I want you to understand what I believe.

I believe being "born again" is a process of Holy Spirit that begins with regeneration, drawing, convicting, bringing to repentance which results in saving faith and lastly... indwelling Holy Spirit.

So, I don't believe a person is completely born again before they believe, but that they are regenerated before they can come to saving faith in the process of being 'born again" which results in saving faith and indwelling Holy Spirit.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

I think an understanding is needed in order to fulfill the Great Commission.

And I think an understanding is needed in order to appropriately praise God for His mercy and grace in bringing salvation to His children.

If I get to heaven and God tells me I shouldn't have given Him so much credit for salvation, I will repent.

peace to youraying:

 

[BaptistBob]

It is clear that anyone can look at what you claimed Carson believed with what he says in his commentary and find that you inaccurately represented his beliefs concerning John 3:8.

Oh really????

Here's what I said:

No, the passage simply means that the ways of believers cannot be controlled or predicted. Read Calvinists D. A. Carson (my old prof.) and Tenney (among others) on this issue. It will probably be easier to accept coming from Calvinists.

Here's what Carson said:

So it is with everyone born of the Spirit. The person who is 'born of the Spirit' can neither be controlled nor understood by persons of but one birth.

The comments are nearly identical.

However, here's what you said, which is obviously wrong:

John 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Holy Spirit moves as He wills, according to His will and purpose. He cannot be manipulated, controlled, or predicted. When Holy Spirit moves upon you, regenerating you according to His will and purpose, you respond, (your human will now set free from sin so that you may respond), with repentance and faith, and are saved.

John 3:8 has nothing to do with that, and NOW you know it. You didn't know it when you qouted the verse. You also didn't know it before you attempted to defend your misunderstanding by quoting verses Carson mentioned (John 1:13,; Ez 36) out of context. Those very same verses also work against your theory as well.

Nothing else you brought up concerning Carson affects my comment.

You have misunderstood Carson. Carson is not making an argument for or against regeneration prior to faith in that particular paragraph.

I didn't say he was. I said YOU misunderstood the verse. YOU quoted it as proof that there is regeneration prior to faith. But it speaks of being "born of the Spirit," which is AFTER faith, both soteriologically and historically.

In other words, I told you what the verse "simply means." It doesn't mean what YOU said it means -- It means what CARSON and I say it means.

The context of his statement was the charge that Jesus was commanding Nic at night to do something not possible (be born again) because Holy Spirit would not be given until after His death and resurrection.

Yes, the verse does not suggest what you originally claimed. I'm glad you're saying so now. You could have avoided the histrionics if you had just done so from the start. Now all you can do is pretend you were trying to make a totally different point.

You said: That is giving a summary (inaccurate summary) of the passage and attributing that belief to Carson, which is clearly untrue. Your comments continue to mislead and distort the beliefs of Carson. To that end, they compliment your earlier statements.

He doesn't believe that the verse says a person has to be "born of the Spirit" prior to faith, and I agree. But you did not agree with me and him.

He says the verse says that people "born of the Spirit" can't be understood or controlled, and I agree. I agreed from the very start, and nothing has changed.

 

[Winman]

So, I don't believe a person is completely born again before they believe, but that they are regenerated before they can come to saving faith in the process of being 'born again" which results in saving faith and indwelling Holy Spirit.

Mumbo-jumbo

Your doctrine is contradicted by scripture is the truth of the matter. John 7:39 shows that a person does not receive the Holy Ghost until they believe.

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

And Jesus told us that it is the spirit that quickeneth. This is regeneration, this is being born again.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

So, a man cannot be regenerated or born again until he receives the Holy Spirit. And a man cannot receive the Holy Spirit unless he first believes.

And we see this pattern throughout the NT.

Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Peter shows this truth in vs. 7. Faith is not a supernatural gift, faith is a deep conviction that God's Word is true. Upon hearing God's Word through Peter, these Gentiles trusted the gospel of Jesus Christ. Upon trusting in Jesus, God gave them the Holy Spirit and they were born again. This is when they were regenerated, made alive.

If this contradicts your doctrine, then maybe you should examine your doctrine for error.

Or maybe you can present scripture to support your belief that the Holy Spirit regenerates a man before he believes and receives the Holy Spirit?

Not teachings of man, scripture please.

Frankly, believeing the Holy Spirit regenerates a person so that they can believe and then receive the Holy Spirit is totally illogical and makes no rational sense whatsoever. But more importantly, it goes against the clear teachings of scripture.

 

[Me4Him]

I want you to understand what I believe.

I believe being "born again" is a process of Holy Spirit that begins with regeneration, drawing, convicting, bringing to repentance which results in saving faith and lastly... indwelling Holy Spirit.

So, I don't believe a person is completely born again before they believe, but that they are regenerated before they can come to saving faith in the process of being 'born again" which results in saving faith and indwelling Holy Spirit.

peace to youraying:

1. Spirit calls, Many are called
2. man hears
3. man doesn't "believe", many not chosen
4. man "believe", few chosen, receives grace,

Israel wandered in the wilderness forty years because of "UNBELIEF" they could conquer the Giants in the land.

Here's what the scripture say about them.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: (MK) although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Jesus tried to get Israel to believe his works, if they didn't believe his words, Abraham said some wouldn't believe though one rose from the dead.

It's this "rebellious nature" of the flesh that God's spirit tries to get us to stop obeying, and we can chose between the flesh or spirit.

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

[Winman]

Me4Him

Good post. The only area I would disagree with you is grace.

4. man "believe", few chosen, receives grace,

Grace is not a thing. Grace means the unmerited favor of God. The scriptures show that God has showed grace to all men.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Another word for grace is goodwill. Remember when the angels appeared to the shepherds?

Luke 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

This was God showing grace or good will to all men, when Jesus came into the world to save all men. That salvation is conditioned upon believeing on Jesus.

I think it is some here changing the meaning of both the words grace and faith that causes a lot of problems. A person is not saved by grace or faith, a person is saved by believeing on Jesus Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit which quickens them.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

[Me4Him]

Me4Him


I think it is some here changing the meaning of both the words grace and faith that causes a lot of problems.

Yep, our "Terminology" definitely is different.

This is one reason when I'm debating/discussing a subject I "try" to use "their terminology" to make my point,

kinda like "speaking the same language", it eliminates some of the "confusion" in their mind as to what I'm actually saying.

Rapture/Resurrection are two words I have trouble explaining,

The Rapture is not a resurrection, and a resurrection is not a rapture,

and without the proper definition of each, it causes a lot of confusion in prophecy.

 

[canadyjd]

Oh really???? Here's what I said: Here's what Carson said: The comments are nearly identical.

I will try one last time.

What you said is only part of what Carson said. When you say the "passage is simply....." you are limiting the meaning of the passage to what follows. You claimed Carson agreed with you. I demonstrated you were incorrect by quoting Carson.

It is my opinion that a man of your extensive learning could not be ignorant of the facts concerning Carson's commentary, which you advised me to read. Therefore, you must have intentially distorted his beliefs in an effort to downplay his understanding of the role Holy Spirit plays in salvation.

Carson does not limit the meaning of John 3:8 "simply" to the man, (as you claim he does) but sees important aspects of Holy Spirit's work in this passage.

I see no reason to continue discussing this with you, since you cannot even admit what you did, and are obviously angry that I have pointed out your error.

Therefore, with Christian love toward you, I am moving on.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Mumbo-jumbo

Does Holy Spirit convict a person of sin before or after they are saved? Does Holy Spirit draw a person to God before or after they are saved?

Paul said the natural man is not able to understand the things of the Spirit because they are spiritually discerned.

But wait, if the non-spiritual man is not even able to understand spiritual things, how can they be saved unless they are first made able to understand spiritual things?

Jesus said when Holy Spirit comes, He will "bear witness of Me", and "guide you into all the truth". John 15:26 and 16:13.

So, does Holy Spirit bear witness of Christ before or after a person believes?

Is the truth about Jesus Christ and Him crucified part of the truth that leads to salvation? Yes?

Does Holy Spirit guide into "all the truth" before and/or after a person believes?

peace to youraying:

 

[BaptistBob]

One more thing.

.I will try one last time.
What you said is only part of what Carson said. When you say the "passage is simply....." you are limiting the meaning of the passage to what follows. You claimed Carson agreed with you. I demonstrated you were incorrect by quoting Carson.

The problem is in your polarized, partisan mind. I did not mean "only" when I used the word.

simply
–adverb 1. in a simple manner; clearly and easily.
2. plainly
3. sincerely; artlessly: to speak simply as a child.
4. merely; only: It is simply a cold.
5. unwisely; foolishly: If you behave simply toward him, you're bound to be betrayed.
6. wholly; absolutely: simply irresistible.

You can replace "simply" with "clearly" if you like. What I was doing was correcting your misunderstanding that the verse meant that people were regenerated prior to believing.

It is my opinion that a man of your extensive learning could not be ignorant of the facts concerning Carson's commentary, which you advised me to read. Therefore, you must have intentially distorted his beliefs in an effort to downplay his understanding of the role Holy Spirit plays in salvation.

I didn't distort the facts. He agrees with me, not you. You had to distort my meaning.

Carson does not limit the meaning of John 3:8 "simply" to the man, (as you claim he does) but sees important aspects of Holy Spirit's work in this passage.

Neither do I. I said "believer," not" "man." A believer is someone who is "born of the Spirit."

You made your comments about the verse with the verse in mind. I responded with the verse in mind. So, when talking about a "believer," I am not talking about "simply a man." EVERYONE but you understood that. Seriously, no one is going to change "believer" to "simply a man" in their minds. EVERYONE but you understood that I was making the comment with the verse in mind.

Carson does not limit the meaning of John 3:8 "simply" to the man

I said "believers," not "man." In your mad hope of finding some possible means of saving face...In your desperate hope of finding an error in what I said so that your error is not noticed....You have changed my words so as to make it look like I was saying something else.

Here's what I said:

The passage simply means that the ways of believers...

Here's what you are accusing me of saying:

The passage says that the simple man

That's the source of your confusion. Your constant distortion of what you read is the cause of your confusion.

 

[Winman]

Jesus said when Holy Spirit comes, He will "bear witness of Me", and "guide you into all the truth". John 15:26 and 16:13.

So, does Holy Spirit bear witness of Christ before or after a person believes?

Well, if you read the context, Jesus is speaking to his disciples here. They were believers, but they had not received the Holy Spirit as Jesus was not yet glorified.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

And we know that after Jesus was crucified, and before he ascended to heaven he told the apostles and disciples to wait for the Holy Spirit.

Acts 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

John 7:37-39 explains that a person does not receive the Holy Ghost or Spirit until they believe. And in the book of Acts these believers did receive the Holy Spirit just as Jesus promised.

And we have some believers in Acts who are clearly identified as believers who had not yet received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

These people believed and were baptized. But they had not received the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost

So, once again we see the pattern of believeing before receiving the Holy Ghost. And here is one more example

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

So, now I have shown you from scripture several times that a person first must believe on Jesus and then afterward receives the Holy Ghost.

Are you convinced from the scriptures? Or will you continue to believe the false teachings of men?

 

[Amy.G]

Does Holy Spirit convict a person of sin before or after they are saved? Does Holy Spirit draw a person to God before or after they are saved?

Paul said the natural man is not able to understand the things of the Spirit because they are spiritually discerned.

But wait, if the non-spiritual man is not even able to understand spiritual things, how can they be saved unless they are first made able to understand spiritual things?

Jesus said when Holy Spirit comes, He will "bear witness of Me", and "guide you into all the truth". John 15:26 and 16:13.

So, does Holy Spirit bear witness of Christ before or after a person believes?

Is the truth about Jesus Christ and Him crucified part of the truth that leads to salvation? Yes?

Does Holy Spirit guide into "all the truth" before and/or after a person believes?

peace to youraying:

The drawing and convicting of the Holy Spirit is not the same as the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. Every time the gospel is given to someone, they are being drawn by the Holy Spirit to receive salvation. But they can resist the Holy Spirit and reject the offer of salvation.

Act 7:51 ¶Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.

Salvation is not sealed until the Holy Spirit gives life and indwells the believer. Salvation cannot occur at the time of drawing and conviction or else everyone would be saved whether they believed or not.

 

[canadyjd]

One more thing......The problem is in your polarized, partisan mind......I didn't distort the facts. He agrees with me, not you. You had to distort my meaning......So, when talking about a "believer," I am not talking about "simply a man." EVERYONE but you understood that. Seriously, no one is going to change "believer" to "simply a man" in their minds. EVERYONE but you understood that I was making the comment with the verse in mind......I said "believers," not "man." In your mad hope of finding some possible means of saving face...In your desperate hope of finding an error in what I said so that your error is not noticed....You have changed my words so as to make it look like I was saying something else.....That's the source of your confusion. Your constant distortion of what you read is the cause of your confusion.

And so, you can have the last word. I am moving on.

In Christian love toward you

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

The drawing and convicting of the Holy Spirit is not the same as the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

My point is that Holy Spirit is working in a person's life. I see that as the beginning of the process of being "born again".

Salvation is not sealed until the Holy Spirit gives life and indwells the believer. Salvation cannot occur at the time of drawing and conviction or else everyone would be saved whether they believed or not.

Are you saying the person is not saved until Holy Spirit indwells?

peace to youraying:

 

[webdog]

My point is that Holy Spirit is working in a person's life. I see that as the beginning of the process of being "born again".

Then you would have to hold to universalism, as each man, woman and child is placed in the exact location and time to seek Him...all an act of the Holy Spirit
(Paul talking to unbelievers
26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

 

[Me4Him]

My point is that Holy Spirit is working in a person's life. I see that as the beginning of the process of being "born again".Are you saying the person is not saved until Holy Spirit indwells?

peace to youraying:

Faith comes by "Hearing" the word of God and word of God is the "seed".

Mt 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

In farming terms, "FAITH" is the fertilizer that makes the "Seed" grow.

God supplies the "seed", you supply the fertilizer.

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Man plants a "seed" in the earth to feed the "natural man" bread,

God planted a "SEED" to feed the "Spiritual man" bread.

Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life.

Understanding the spiritual is as simple as understanding the "natural", the patterns are the same.