A Highly Interesting Article

[canadyjd]

And my desire too, but the truth is that He does not control us. He created us with a will of our own. That is why we still continue to sin even though we are not "slaves of sin" anymore. In order to love God, we must have the freedom or free will to do so. We must have an alternative or there is no love.

We do not have the ability to love God without the influence of Holy Spirit in our lives. The alternative has already been chosen by everyone on the planet. Prior to God intervening in my life, I loved the things of the world.

I see no free-will to love God within me. I know that without Holy Spirit, I will always be in rebellion.

Christ frees our wills to love Him, but we cannot do so without Holy Spirit.

peace to yoraying:

 

[Amy.G]

We do not have the ability to love God without the influence of Holy Spirit in our lives

peace to yoraying:

I never said otherwise. But the influence of the Holy Spirit is a far cry from "controlling", which is the word you used.

 

[canadyjd]

Paul tells us the plan of God was that whoever believes in Christ will be elected to salvation.

Please show me that passage of scripture.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

But the influence of the Holy Spirit is a far cry from "controlling", which is the word you used.

A distinction without a difference, imho.

peace to youraying:

 

[pilgrim2009]

Please show me that passage of scripture.

peace to youraying:

I doubt if you will find that Scripture.

 

[Amy.G]

Please show me that passage of scripture.

peace to youraying:

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[Rippon]

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

That is not an example of being elected to salvation. You still persist in thinking that election is future for an individual whereas the Bible says it was before the foundation of the world.

A person is saved in time -- but not elected at that point. remember the Lamb's Book of Life was made before the creation of the world.

 

[Amy.G]

That is not an example of being elected to salvation. You still persist in thinking that election is future for an individual whereas the Bible says it was before the foundation of the world.

A person is saved in time -- but not elected at that point. remember the Lamb's Book of Life was made before the creation of the world.

I know. The Lamb's book of life was based on foreknowledge. But election is based on Christ and being "in Him".

If we are simply elected to salvation before the foundation of the world, then we are elected apart from Christ.

But if we are elected "in Him", as Eph.1:4 says, then we are the elect because we are "in Him". We are elect only because of our union with Christ.

To be "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world" is a reference to God's plan of salvation which was in place before God created anything. Those who are "in Christ", or who are united with Christ through faith are elected to salvation. No one is elected to salvation apart from Christ. That's why "in Him" is included in the verse.


What does "in Christ" mean?

 

[Lux et veritas]

I know. The Lamb's book of life was based on foreknowledge. But election is based on Christ and being "in Him".

Two questions:
1. Could I have a Scripture that says the Lamb's book of life was based on foreknowledge?

2. Could you please give the scripture that says "election is based on Christ and being "in Him"?

 

[Lux et veritas]

We are elect only because of our union with Christ.

You've got the cart before the horse here. Quite the opposite. Our union with Christ is based upon our election.

So far in reading your posts, you admit that election was in eternity past, and, you admit that our union in Christ is in time (now).

You make something in eternity past based on an act that takes place now (illogical, unbiblical), rather than an act that takes place now based on something that took place in eternity past (logical, biblical).

And please ... don't pull out the old misinterpreted, "foreknowledge of God" as meaning God knew what would happen, so He elected them. Read the verse. It does not say God foreknew what would happen or what a person would do. It says He foreknew them. "WHOM He foreknew." It does not say, "WHAT He foreknew". And here's a good study for you, if you really want to understand the concept: What does the Bible mean when it speaks of "knowing" someone?

 

[Me4Him]

That has God responding to a man's actions and then granting "election" and salvation based on those actions. That means the man has merited his own salvation, and grace (unmerited favor) is not really grace.

Scripture teaches that before the very foundation of the world, God, according to the kind intention of His will and for His own purposes, predistined some to salvation.

peace to youraying:

Faith isn't consider by scripture to be a "works", however it does "merit" salvation in God's eyes.

Have you ever wonder why God would save those who, or their own free will", would believe/have faith in him and why he wouldn't save those who don't,

God has a reason for allowing Adam/mankind a "CHOICE" in the first place, and the reason is so important to the plan of salvation, that even with foreknowledge, God will allow some to perish in spite of that being against his will.

God actually "Repented/Grieved" he made man, why, because of the evil man "CHOSE" over the good.

Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

I don't think God repented/grieved over anything he "predestine", God doesn't make "mistakes", so he doesn't repent as man.

Predestination actually denies the God's Grace is sufficient to cover all sin, since it is "withheld" from some.


When you look at all God has said, not willing any perish, Jesus not coming to condemn but dying for "ALL" sin, whole world might be saved, God repenting/grieving over man's sin.

and consider that God "Foreknew", before the foundation of the world was laid, how things were going to turn out, and the majority of them against his will, yet he continue with this same plan,

"WHY???

God had a purpose in giving Adam/mankind a "CHOICE", a purpose which predestination/Calvinist don't see/understand,

and it's goes to the very "HEART" of the plan of salvation.

 

[Amy.G]

And please ... don't pull out the old misinterpreted, "foreknowledge of God" as meaning God knew what would happen, so He elected them. Read the verse. It does not say God foreknew what would happen or what a person would do. It says He foreknew them. "WHOM He foreknew." It does not say, "WHAT He foreknew". And here's a good study for you, if you really want to understand the concept: What does the Bible mean when it speaks of "knowing" someone?

I have never pulled out that card. In fact I have said that I do NOT believe that. This is a common accusation made by Calvinists toward anyone who is non-cal.


I am going to start a thread on what "in Christ" means. Maybe we can hammer it out there.

 

[canadyjd]

.... God had a purpose in giving Adam/mankind a "CHOICE", a purpose which predestination/Calvinist don't see/understand,

and it's goes to the very "HEART" of the plan of salvation.

You believe the purpose of salvation was for man to have "free-will" and to chose God with that "free-will".

First, scripture says no one chose God. Everyone turn aside and followed the world.

Second, scripture says that as soon as Adam and Eve sinned, their wills were enslaved to sin. Therefore, they were no longer able to chose God, but instead, they hide themselves from God.

Thirdly, the purpose of salvation was not to have man exercise "free-will", as you have stated.

The purpose of God's plan of salvation was that God would have a people for Himself, according to His own purpose, good intention and will, that would understand that He loves them so much that He would die for them, and that they, therefore, would enjoy Him forever.

You place the focus on man. I place the focus on God.

When I get to heaven, if God tells me I gave Him too much credit for salvation, then I will repent.

peace to youraying:

 

[MrJim]

Theological arguments are a safe haven of religion...angels dancin' on the pinhead...

 

[canadyjd]

Theological arguments are a safe haven of religion...angels dancin' on the pinhead...

Your point?

peace to youraying:

 

[Winman]

Second, scripture says that as soon as Adam and Eve sinned, their wills were enslaved to sin. Therefore, they were no longer able to chose God, but instead, they hide themselves from God.

That is not what scripture says, the scriptures say they knew good and evil.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

And there are instances where the Lord himself says an unsaved person can perform good acts.

Matt 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

So, I do not believe the Bible teaches that a man is 100% evil. Men know and recognize good, and man can even do some good acts. It is not the good that a man does that is a problem, it is a man's sin that puts him in danger of hell fire. And only by receiving Jesus as personal saviour can a man escape hell.

I believe some famous verses used to teach that men are 100% evil do not really teach that.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Notice we are not naked as Adam and Eve were in the garden. But our clothing of righteousnesses is stained and torn from the sins we commit. But we do perform some righteous acts. Again, good acts are not the problem, it is our sin that seperates us from God.

And a verse that clearly shows man is not 100% evil:

Eze 13:13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

This verse shows several things. It shows that a man can indeed do righteous acts. But if he trust in his own righteousness, then those righteous acts will not be remembered, and he shall die for his iniquity.

But it also shows that a wicked man can turn from his wickedness and do righteous acts.

So, man is not a robot. Man knows good and evil, and can choose to do either.

 

[Winman]

And your belief that man plays no part in salvation is simply unscriptural.

Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Now, here the Lord Jesus himself promises that the heavenly Father will give the Holy Spirit to those that ASK him. So, do you really believe Jesus would condemn a person for doing the very thing he invites them to do?

John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Same thing. Do you really believe Jesus would condemn someone for coming to him and asking for this living water (Holy Spirit) after he had just invited them to do so?

Matt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Again, do you really believe Jesus will condemn someone for coming to him after he just invited them to come to him?

What you do not understand is that believeing is not a work.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Do you not see that believeing is contrasted with working in this verse? To believe on Jesus is not a work.

And there are many words for believeing, come unto, lean upon, look to, depend upon, trust upon or on, call upon ...

Yes, a believer must be drawn to God. And we are drawn through the scriptures which reveals our sinfullness and the love of God that he has provided Jesus a sin offering in our place. And the scriptures invite us to come to Jesus, look to Jesus, call upon Jesus. These are all words for believe.

What do you think Jesus was talking about when he said:

Matt 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Do you really believe it is an accident that the first letter of ask, seek, and knock spell ask?? I tell you, that is no accident.

But by your belief, we would be condemned for obeying Christ and doing the very things he told us to do many, many times.

 

[pilgrim2009]

That is not an example of being elected to salvation. You still persist in thinking that election is future for an individual whereas the Bible says it was before the foundation of the world.

A person is saved in time -- but not elected at that point. remember the Lamb's Book of Life was made before the creation of the world.

A person is saved in time is unbiblical and comes from a works salvation.A believer is saved not being saved {1st Cor1:18}KJB.

If your bible says being saved in 1st Cor 1:18 it attacks the doctrine of grace through faith and not of works lest any man should boast.{Eph 2:8-9}KJB.

My Bible says which are saved not which are being saved as Rome would have you to believe.

 

[canadyjd]

And your belief that man plays no part in salvation is simply unscriptural.

You have not accurately stated my belief. Man's "part" is to respond to God's intervention in his life with repentance of sin and faith in Christ.

Matt 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Do you really believe it is an accident that the first letter of ask, seek, and knock spell ask?? I tell you, that is no accident.

Except the origional text was written in Greek. Do you suppose the Greek words begin with "a...s...k"?

peace to youraying:

 

[Rippon]

So, I do not believe the Bible teaches that a man is 100% evil.

There are too many passages in the Bible that demonstrate the wickedness of the human heart and how much enmity it has for God. All people are not as evil as they could be --- God restrains some sin. But the bottom line is that all people in the natural realm are against God -- who is goodness personified.

When even the plowing a field can be called a wicked act -- we need to gain a biblical perspective of what constitutes goodness.

And remember the story of the rich young ruler? He approached Christ by addressing Him with the words Good Rabbi. "Why do you call Me good?" Jesus answered. Did the young man actually recognize that Jesus was God in the flesh? No one is really good but God. His very Name is derived from the word good.

You need to appreciate the scriptural view of human beings -- they are basically bad.

So, man is not a robot.

Oh, how clever. I've never heard of that robot charge before... wait I've heard it a million times but it just doesn't stick to Calvinism.

Man knows good and evil, and can choose to do either.

A classic statement of libertarian free will.