A Hill on which to Die

[Phillip]

My pastor received a book this week written by "Judge Paul Pressler" called "A Hill on which to Die"---"One Southern Baptist's Journey". The book is supposedly about the fight for control of the SBC and was highly endorsed by Tim LaHaye, Adrian Rogers, Edwin Meese III and of course W. A. Criswell.

He knows I read a lot and he is covered with books he has to cover for classes, etc. and he asked me to read it and give him my thoughts. We both realize the book is probably heavily slanted toward Pressler's viewpoint, but it appears to be a very interesting book that holds inside facts that have yet to be made public.

Has anybody read this book yet and can I get some comments?

 

[TomVols]

I have not read the book yet in its entirety. I look forward to doing so. In my head I can still hear the liberal professors from my days at a liberal Baptist college viciously insulting Pressler without mercy.

I'm interested in the comments as well. I can almost guarantee you that the liberals will not like the book, regardless of what he says.
Know where I can get a copy of the book cheap? I just can't bring myself to pay $20 for it I'm a conservative, but I'm a cheap one

[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: TomVols ]

 

[Phillip]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TomVols:
[QB] In my head I can still hear the liberal professors from my days at a liberal Baptist college viciously insulting Pressler without mercy.
I can almost guarantee you that the liberals will not like the book, regardless of what he says.
Know where I can get a copy of the book cheap? I just can't bring myself to pay $20 for it
[QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HAHA I agree 100%. They are not going to like the fact he put it in writing, I'm sure. I'll call my pastor this afternoon and ask him if he knows or whatever. I don't know his plans with this particular book, He asked me to read it due to his lack of time and tell him what I thought. He said it was sent to him in the mail and that is ALL I know. Is it listed for $20? That is surprising because it is just a paperback printed by the Broadman & Holman Publishers. I don't know who sent it to him or why. It does NOT have a price listed anywhere on the cover that I can find.
I assume you have found it listed for sale somewhere, but for those who haven't it is ISBN 0-8054-1677-3.
Update: I have finished the first six or seven chapters about the Judges early years in law-school and early legislative positions. It is attention grabbing and holds your interest well. He describes some of the beliefs of the liberal churches he attended in the northeast. Quite-shocking to the uninformed.

If I find out anything from the pastor I will post it.

 

[TomVols]

Phillip,
I just received the book today in the mail. Apparently, every SB pastor is receiving one. The paperback version is only about 3 or 4 bucks, but since this one is free, who cares
Let me go get the book and snuggle up to my humidifier, and I'll pour over the book while I nurse my flu

 

[Phillip]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TomVols:
Let me go get the book and snuggle up to my humidifier, and I'll pour over the book while I nurse my flu <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OHHHHH, I just got over two weeks and a third week getting my strength back. It didn't start going away until the doctor gave me cephlexan (I believe is how it is spelled) antibiotic. I don't know if it was a coincidence, but stuff in my chest started breaking free and I could breath again.

If you have a doc you can call ask for a few Zyrtec tablets (they are expensive), but they work 24 hours and have zero side effects like being sleepy, etc. Great antihistimine. I also survived by taking a bottle of Phenergan with Codeine spoonful about twice a day, especially at night when I could lay down and it REALLY helped that sick feeling you have. Some doctors won't give it, but mine did and it made the sickness MUCH more tolerable. I then asked for a bottle of Phenergan without the codeine after I ran out and he gladly gave me that and it helps make you sleepy and takes away the nausea if you have any. Just some ideas. Believe me "I feel your pain.", but I'm glad you got your book.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Somebody inform us poor NORTHERN Baptists who this "judge" is, why liberals would be unhappy, why SBC are getting the book free, etc etc etc.

Remember, there are more NON-SBC among Baptists in America than youse guyz!!

 

[SaggyWoman]

Paul Pressler is not one of my favorite people.

 

[Phillip]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
Somebody inform us poor NORTHERN Baptists who this "judge" is, why liberals would be unhappy, why SBC are getting the book free, etc etc etc.

Remember, there are more NON-SBC among Baptists in America than youse guyz!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HeHe, you is right bout that and we hear about it every day.

Here come da judge. Judge Pressler was a legislator and judge in Houston, TX who helped start the Conservative movement within the Southern Baptist Convention. Granted, many, many pastors have abused the conservative movement to their own welfare of controlling the church beyond limits (i.e. W.A. Criswell). But, the theory behind the conservative movement was really simple to start with. Liberals who believed that the Bible was NOT the Word of God and that it was really Man's attempt to reach God had infiltrated the convention and had taken control. Conservatives were groups like the Judge who believed that the Bible is the only necessary authority today of God. In other words, if a preacher gets up and says: God told me to kill the abortionist down the street, we should check our Bibles first. We also do not answer to a Pope or headquarters somewhere that supposedly has a secret path to God. The Judge was simply trying to help bring the convention back to its original beliefs in God. In fact, for an interesting point go to my site at www.baptist-church.org and click on baptist beliefs. Read the three different versions about the Bible and see if you agree with the 2000 version. The liberals had a FIT because they claimed the part about the Bible is NOT correct. That is what caused the First Baptist Church of Oklahoma City to leave the convention just two months ago. They claimed it was over that one statement on the Bible in the 2000 statement of beliefs. (I think there was probably more to it than that.) But, in a nut-shell that is all it is and we are likely to see a split in the convention and churches over this. The conservative intentions were good, back-to-the basics theory, but as I said, some pastors abused their powers and basically said: God put me here so I'm the big boss and you can't get rid of me. This caused a lot of distress to the conservative movement and gave it the bad name it carries today. I believe in the conservative movement myself, because the original plan, as I stated earlier was to bring us back to fundamental Bible, Jesus diety and Grace, etc. that Southern Baptists used to stand for. Now, we find preachers that aren't even sure that Jesus was the true Son of God. In my opinion, why bother with church, if you believe like that.

Oh, one final note: Our definition of "liberal" may not be your definition of "liberal" so, a lot of non-SBC Baptists don't understand that we had preachers that were literally unbelievers in God's Word as the final authority. etc.

[ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: Phillip ]

 

[Phillip]

Obviously, the book is being printed by the Southern Baptist Convention to help maintain the conservatives in office that now control it. So, I guess if you want a free copy, your church has to sign up with the SBC. I would be very happy to get you a phone number! We are likely going to need some churches to replace the ones we loose.

 

[SaggyWoman]

Lifeway printed it. FBC, Houston, where pressler goes, is taking donations to offset the cost of this mass mailing. They were mailed from not Nashville, and not Texas. I think it was Tallahassee. I read a BP article on it this afternoon--or something in the Texas Baptist Standard.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

I, too, just received a copy of Judge Pressler's book from my pastor on Thursday. I have read the first three chapters in entirity and have skimmed the rest. From what I have read so far, I can see why the judge and his cronies dislike some of the teachings by others in the seminaries, but the man sure does seem quick to judge who is going to Hell. The "ultra- conservatives" or "fundamentalist" or whatever term you apply to them, seem to have sacraficed the concepts of church autonomy and soul liberty in their quest to "purify" the SBC. I look forward to this thread remaining open and was very excited to see the name on the main forum.
I also want to add that while I may agree with Judge Pressler in his doctrine, I am likely to disagree with his devices of change. I find the "conservatives" far too Machiavellian in their approach to politics within the convention. The ends do NOT always justify the means. The SBC was founded for the sole purpose of supporting missions. Somehow in the last 150 years, we have lost sight of that. The whole reason that the SBC broke from the Triennial Convention in the 1850's was because of dictatorial tones being aimed at southern churches. Those who do not learn from history...

May God bless you all

- Clint

 

[Dr. Bob]

The "Judged" sounds like my kinda guy! Remember, we NORTHERN Baptists lost our seminaries, colleges and eventually the whole denomination to godless liberalism in 1930.

We suspected that the slower-moving, more gracious SOUTHERN Baptists would eventually fall to liberalism too, just a generation behind the North. We advocated churches WITHDRAWING from the SBC because they were on the downward slide.

Egg on our Face! God graciously allowed a resurgent conservative/fundamental majority with the SBC to salvage their denomination from the downward slide toward the pit of liberalism. Praise the Lord for His graciousness on you fortuneate SBC'ers.

 

[Phillip]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
I, too, just received a copy of Judge Pressler's book from my pastor on Thursday. I have read the first three chapters in entirity and have skimmed the rest. From what I have read so far, I can see why the judge and his cronies dislike some of the teachings by others in the seminaries, but the man sure does seem quick to judge who is going to Hell. The "ultra- conservatives" or "fundamentalist" or whatever term you apply to them, seem to have sacraficed the concepts of church autonomy and soul liberty in their quest to "purify" the SBC. I look forward to this thread remaining open and was very excited to see the name on the main forum.
I also want to add that while I may agree with Judge Pressler in his doctrine, I am likely to disagree with his devices of change. I find the "conservatives" far too Machiavellian in their approach to politics within the convention. The ends do NOT always justify the means. The SBC was founded for the sole purpose of supporting missions. Somehow in the last 150 years, we have lost sight of that. The whole reason that the SBC broke from the Triennial Convention in the 1850's was because of dictatorial tones being aimed at southern churches. Those who do not learn from history...

May God bless you all

- Clint<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tend to agree with you on the method that it was handled. I am not sure that advertising to ten thousand people, many of which may not even be Christians that there are major problems in the church is not quite the way to go. I think a lot of these things should be handled either quietly or behind closed doors. The judge seems to be like I used to be a speak out when I felt something was wrong in a church. EVERY single time I have done this, I wound up on the short end of a stick where the pastor MADE CERTAIN that I was a big "sinner" and HE was the man called by God.

Read some of the chapters a little closer, though because I tend to disagree a bit with one of your statements regarding him picking out who is going to hell. I'm not sure he was quite that way and was pretty accepting of Christians, even liberals that were pretty far off, because he even mentioned loosing friendships over his letters to help the churches straighten up. Otherwise, you post is right in at least two churches I have seen. We have found a wonderful church with a WONDERFUL HUMBLE pastor who is conservative in belief, but does allow the democratic system to work without interference. This is an odd mixture, but it works wonderfully in our church and there is peace and harmony PLUS a GOOD BIBLE PREACHING pastor who let's God's will lead the flock.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

For those of you looking for a copy of this book, the following letter and envelope were enclosed with my copy:

( ) Enclosed is my Tax Deductible check payable to Houston's First Baptist Church as a donation to help distribute "A Hill on Which To Die"


( ) Enclosed is my check payable to "A Hill on Which To Die" to purchase the following:

_____Paperback copies@ $3.50 each for a total cost of ____

_____Paperback copies @ $2.75 each for 10 or more for a total cost of ____

____Hardback copies @ $20.00 each for a total cost of ____

____Hardback copies @ $15.00 each for 10 or or more for a total cost of ____

This is not tax deductible.


And the envelope reads:

A Hill on Which to Die
5773 Woodway Drive
PMB-124
Houston, TX 77057

Never let it be said that I am TOO biased.

- Clint

Tomorrow I will scan and post the letter that accompanied the book.

[ December 09, 2001: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

[Clint Kritzer]

I am unable to sleep this evening so I went ahead and created an URL for the cover letter that accompanied the book, "A Hill On Which To Die".

http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/A%20Hill%20on%20Which%20to%20Die.gif

Happy reading!

- Clint

 

[Phillip]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
The "Judged" sounds like my kinda guy! Remember, we NORTHERN Baptists lost our seminaries, colleges and eventually the whole denomination to godless liberalism in 1930.

We suspected that the slower-moving, more gracious SOUTHERN Baptists would eventually fall to liberalism too, just a generation behind the North. We advocated churches WITHDRAWING from the SBC because they were on the downward slide.

Egg on our Face! God graciously allowed a resurgent conservative/fundamental majority with the SBC to salvage their denomination from the downward slide toward the pit of liberalism. Praise the Lord for His graciousness on you fortuneate SBC'ers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct me if I am wrong, but were the Northern and Southern Baptists combined in the same group years ago and split over differences?

You are right, because the Judge's problem was related to Southern Baptist Seminaries that were putting out pastors who were so liberal it was ridiculous. One professor wrote a book printed by the Broadman press that the Judge fought and it was about the reality of Genesis. It was written by a man named Elliot who was a big professor at an SBC university. Elliot claimed that the book of Genesis is not a science book and is therefore not written with accuracy, but simply a parable "type" of book. He claims that none of the book was accurate to true history. The Judge made his first move when he wrote 5000 copies of a 50 (I think) page document after interviewing many, many seminary professors who did not even believe in the diety of Christ and were teaching our pastors. This caused him a lot of notoriety in the SBC and from then on the churches began to choose sides and the conservative group finally managed to get hold of the convention by general vote of the churches. We still have many liberal churches within the convention including one church that allows a woman pastor. The convention really has no right to kick them out because the convention is run by the churches, not the other way around like the Presbyterians. They will express concern to the churches; however, and attempt to get them to come back to the belief of the Bible. Again, you might go to baptist-church.org and read the three different Southern Baptist beliefs updated as time went by and society changed. They needed clarification because of new issues such as gays out of the closet now and other issues we face today that we didn't in the early 1900's. I printed all three beliefs with the Bible references (as printed by the SBC) beneath each statement of belief. For you non-SBC member, you might find this interesting reading if you would like to just understand the SBC beliefs--like I would be to understand the Northern Baptist beliefs. I am not trying to convert anybody, just provide informational material for your interest.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Good evening -

I am slowly finding time to read the book, "A Hill on Which to Die" and am becoming familiar with this man's personality through his writing. Tonight I started chapter 6 and actually laughed out loud when I read the first page.
Judge Pressler is speaking about his early political career and makes the following statement on page 39:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"I saw many people in public office who knew nothing other than politics. They had neither the financial resources or the acumen to pursue other areas if they failed in political office. Therefore, they felt great pressure on themselves to vote in a way that pleased their constituency so they could be reelected." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Please their constituency? What American politician would do THAT for the people who elected them? (Yes, that was sarcasm.)
He then goes on to claim that he manipulated an amendment requiring a minimum age of state senator from 25 to 30 to be suspended for two years just so that he could "keep his options open". He was 28 at the time.
I live in a small county with local level officials who take this "I know better than the voters" stance. We vote them out. I will state again, I agree with Judge Pressler's theological views, but as a human being and a politician, I am finding a widening chasm between us. The first 5 chapters describe a privileged aristocrat who was quite accustomed to getting his way. I think he never outgrew that.

Goodnight folks

- Clint

 

[TomVols]

Judge Pressler became an easy target for the left because he was so outspoken and front-and-center. I totally sympathize with his theological convictions. I appreciate his work in the conservative resurgence in the convention. I still get chills when I hear his name, maybe because part of my education was at a liberal baptist college and he was skewered 24/7. But the book is insightful and is must reading for all who want to see inside the conservative resurgence in the SBC.

 

[Phillip]

I am still reading the book and I agree with the Judges doctrine very strongly. I must say I am a little disappointed in his way of doing things and his attitude towards people and am a little bit embarassed that the conservative controlled convention sent these out to all of our pastors because it reads too much like propaganda to keep out the liberals.

I do not agree with the liberals and talked with a person yesterday who is very conservative and had met the Judge once when he was originally campaigning. He had a preacher friend who was somewhat moderate and when I say that I don't mean he did not believe the Bible, but he was not just absolutely 24 hour day every word means exactly what it says -- believing in the gap theory--that sort of person--but, a good Christian. The judge treated him very harshly and (although I feel that no compromise is good) considered the person almost like a non-Christian.

I think his method of using politics, power and power to get his way to justify the means maybe needs a little work. Just my opinion.

This was also reflected in an interview with W.A. Criswell who everybody probably agrees preaches a good doctrine, but when he was interviewed in his HUGE office, he supposedly made a comment about God not meaning for Christians to not be rich, or something to that effect. All of these guys including the judge are very high on the social and money ladders in their various cities and organizations. THIS I have a problem with----NOT their doctrine.

 

[Bob Alkire]

I haven't read the book,but as Dr. Bob showed up the Northen Baptist lost their shools as well as a lot of their chrched.
You and I as members can believe what we want but should we be allowed to teach and preach it at our churches or schools even if it is wrong or not the same doctrine as the church or school? I say no.
Do some checking, how many conservative schools have liberal prof. and how many liberal schools have conservative prof..