A Jehovah's Witness is at my Door!

[Yeshua1]

I should hope so that is what he saved you for. However, according to your soteriological method that commitment is optional not a requirement.


Contrarily, the problem you face is you make a distinction between what one believes and how one acts. I consider one acts what they believe.


The problem faced here is you ignore the restoritive act that Jesus intended by his sacrifice. To redeem isn't only paying the price but restoration. All of these definitions apply
You only adhere to the one aspect of the definition - Payment of the obligation and ignore the recovery/restoration aspect of the definition. Both are meant in scripture.

We are purchased to be set apart in not only what we believe, who we are, but also those things we do. We are saved unto good works.


No you are wrong. I have never implied that we initiate our salvation or become saved by our own merits. Never once the Good news is that Jesus did it. But now we are free to act in that freedom of sanctification, living righteously. Living out our Justification. You want to absent the person from their behavior and obligations the participation in the life of Christ.



Yes.

My sins are paid in full and to be forgiven all I have to do is ask for forgiveness. Now let me ask you a question which is more to the point. Do you believe the consequences of your sin are gone? Let me give you an example question. If I had illicit sex in my life before comming to Jesus Christ and contracted HIV. Just because God forgave me my sin has he gotten rid of my disease? (Not saying he couldn't) No. In fact all those people I passed the disease on to will also have it No matter what standing I have before God. Now that I'm made right with God do I have an obligation not to pass that disease on to anyone else? And if I ignore God and continue to spread that disease around am I really righteous?

How about this. Just because my sins are paid in full does that alleviate my responsibility to be a disciplined christian? I would say no. You would say yes.

Did you receive the holy spirit by hearing with faith, or by works of the law?

IF you have him, do you continue to grow and mature by works of the law, or by faith?

 

[Doubting Thomas]

What do you get when you cross a Jehovah's Witness with a Unitarian-Universalist?

A person who is hanging out on your front doorstep for no particular reason.
:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I don't know how many times I have utterly and repeatedly denied this false accusation.

How is this false? Lets look at what you say

Paul says complete satistfacton and justifcation by the blood and resurrection of Jesus Christ is received by faith (Rom. 3:24-26; 4:24-25).

Probably a more accurate review of what you believe is to replace the word

received by faith

and replace it with

received at faith

However, it is clear here that you believe that you are at the point of faith completly Justified. Justification which righteousness is a complete Legal fiction. According to you on paper before God you are righteous but not in reality because you still sin. Thus its only a fiction. Its play pretend righteousness. And finally to prove my accusation isn't false look at what you say here

the person being justified as PASSIVE and merely RECEPTIVE and excludes ALL ACTIVE PARTICIPATION or CONTRIBUTION by the person being justified

All one has to do is believe and be passive and voila any obedience is optional because you exclude obedience (Active participation or contribution). You yourself have said it. Salvation therefore accordingly is only an intellectual assent which your emotions have consented to believe in a heartfelt way that Jesus is capable of freeing you from your sins. Whether in fact he does in reality is optional because justification isn't so in fact but in legality (legal fiction) until you die. That is your stance.

I have repeatedly stated there is no such thing as a human being who is justified who is not also regenerated

Note regeneration in your view is soley passive. Transformation into the likeness of Christ to you is only passive. And since you abhore following in obedience and Jointly Sharing in Christ sufferings as Paul speaks of it and not be held to be the Royalty he made you to be with its activities and responsibilities. You hold that all you have to do is devoid yourself of discipline and recieve transformation into the likeness of Christ. Passive.

and sanctification

Just like love is not only a belief, a faith, an emotion, a desire for the well being of another but it is also a choice that in good times and bad times, in sickness and in health, that you will be faithful to that one other person. Neither is our faith just a belief, and emotion a desire. It is the choice that you daily lay down your life whether you feel like it or not. That is sanctification. You have seperated yourself for God to do his will whether its fun or not. And just like Married people who don't work on their marriage don't stay married for long so it is in our faith.

A Straw man argument. They are not in contrast to each other

That is what I have been saying all along. I don't differentiate between faith and what a person does. You devoid faith from the actions of the person and anyone who believes that faith has the obligation of obedience to God is a "works based" salvation. When in fact that just isn't so.

The LEGAL claims against the elect were paid in full, completely restored on the cross by the Second Adam as their representative.

And does not God restore man to his original state in which he can obey God and live for God? But then righteousness and Justification to you is just a legal fiction. According to you one isn't really in righteous but only declared so by some paper. True righteousness isn't accessed until death and can even be attempted to be attained despite what Paul said that this one thing he does is forget what is behind and presses forward towards the goal.

Sorry, But I don't think your view is scriptural.

 

[Yeshua1]

How is this false? Lets look at what you say Probably a more accurate review of what you believe is to replace the word and replace it with However, it is clear here that you believe that you are at the point of faith completly Justified. Justification which righteousness is a complete Legal fiction. According to you on paper before God you are righteous but not in reality because you still sin. Thus its only a fiction. Its play pretend righteousness. And finally to prove my accusation isn't false look at what you say here All one has to do is believe and be passive and voila any obedience is optional because you exclude obedience (Active participation or contribution). You yourself have said it. Salvation therefore accordingly is only an intellectual assent which your emotions have consented to believe in a heartfelt way that Jesus is capable of freeing you from your sins. Whether in fact he does in reality is optional because justification isn't so in fact but in legality (legal fiction) until you die. That is your stance.



Note regeneration in your view is soley passive. Transformation into the likeness of Christ to you is only passive. And since you abhore following in obedience and Jointly Sharing in Christ sufferings as Paul speaks of it and not be held to be the Royalty he made you to be with its activities and responsibilities. You hold that all you have to do is devoid yourself of discipline and recieve transformation into the likeness of Christ. Passive.


Just like love is not only a belief, a faith, an emotion, a desire for the well being of another but it is also a choice that in good times and bad times, in sickness and in health, that you will be faithful to that one other person. Neither is our faith just a belief, and emotion a desire. It is the choice that you daily lay down your life whether you feel like it or not. That is sanctification. You have seperated yourself for God to do his will whether its fun or not. And just like Married people who don't work on their marriage don't stay married for long so it is in our faith.



That is what I have been saying all along. I don't differentiate between faith and what a person does. You devoid faith from the actions of the person and anyone who believes that faith has the obligation of obedience to God is a "works based" salvation. When in fact that just isn't so.



And does not God restore man to his original state in which he can obey God and live for God? But then righteousness and Justification to you is just a legal fiction. According to you one isn't really in righteous but only declared so by some paper. True righteousness isn't accessed until death and can even be attempted to be attained despite what Paul said that this one thing he does is forget what is behind and presses forward towards the goal.

Sorry, But I don't think your view is scriptural.

So the death of jesus was NOT the propiation for your sins, you have to "assist God" in getting saved!

 

[DHK]

My sins are paid in full and to be forgiven all I have to do is ask for forgiveness. Now let me ask you a question which is more to the point. Do you believe the consequences of your sin are gone? Let me give you an example question. If I had illicit sex in my life before comming to Jesus Christ and contracted HIV. Just because God forgave me my sin has he gotten rid of my disease? (Not saying he couldn't) No. In fact all those people I passed the disease on to will also have it No matter what standing I have before God. Now that I'm made right with God do I have an obligation not to pass that disease on to anyone else? And if I ignore God and continue to spread that disease around am I really righteous?

How about this. Just because my sins are paid in full does that alleviate my responsibility to be a disciplined christian? I would say no. You would say yes.

Have you considered Lot?
God declared him just and righteous even though he offered his two virgin daughters to be molested all night long by a mob of homosexuals. How could a saved individual even think of doing such a thing, even in an OT dispensation? It is a horrid thought! But that is how corrupted he was with the thinking of Sodom and its mores.

When a person is declared righteous before God he is also declared justified--just as if he never sinned. But that doesn't mean he is sinless. He never will be until he gets to heaven. We sin every day. Your depraved nature continues to work in you, even after you are saved.

Is it possible for a saved individual to keep sinning for a time after he is saved? Yes it is. Everyone is different. Sanctification is a process. He starts with milk and grows to the place where he is able to eat meat. He will shortly after salvation give up that sin, but perhaps not right away. Every one is different. Most, I would hope, would give up that wickedness right away. Some may be like Lot, and continue in their sin for sometime before they come to that place where they give it up completely.

Consider the example of smoking. Do all people, once they come to Christ, give up smoking immediately. I hope they give it up eventually, but not all Christians give it up immediately. For heavy smokers it is a difficult thing to do, as are other addictions. Almost anything can be an addiction. Trusting Christ does not mean becoming sinless automatically. Repentance is a change of attitude toward God. Once a person was rebellious toward God and now he is attitude toward God is one of submission. But complete submission doesn't come all at once.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Did you receive the holy spirit by hearing with faith, or by works of the law?

Well since I believed God when he said that he layed down his life for me and I followed him into baptism and I wasn't required to be circumcized by Jewish law I would go with the former.

IF you have him, do you continue to grow and mature by works of the law, or by faith?

First of all faith isn't devoid of the actions of faith as James says. Secondly, I continue to grow and mature by obeying Jesus in my words and deeds because I have faith. Next ask yourself this question. Does Jesus exempt you from following the 10 commandments? Can you willing break them not repent of breaking them and be saved? In short now that you have faith are you now free to murder? Are you now free to covet? Are you now free to commit adultry? All of it with no consequence in your relationship to God? Because in essense that is what you are saying.

 

[Yeshua1]

Have you considered Lot?
God declared him just and righteous even though he offered his two virgin daughters to be molested all night long by a mob of homosexuals. How could a saved individual even think of doing such a thing, even in an OT dispensation? It is a horrid thought! But that is how corrupted he was with the thinking of Sodom and its mores.

When a person is declared righteous before God he is also declared justified--just as if he never sinned. But that doesn't mean he is sinless. He never will be until he gets to heaven. We sin every day. Your depraved nature continues to work in you, even after you are saved.

Is it possible for a saved individual to keep sinning for a time after he is saved? Yes it is. Everyone is different. Sanctification is a process. He starts with milk and grows to the place where he is able to eat meat. He will shortly after salvation give up that sin, but perhaps not right away. Every one is different. Most, I would hope, would give up that wickedness right away. Some may be like Lot, and continue in their sin for sometime before they come to that place where they give it up completely.

Consider the example of smoking. Do all people, once they come to Christ, give up smoking immediately. I hope they give it up eventually, but not all Christians give it up immediately. For heavy smokers it is a difficult thing to do, as are other addictions. Almost anything can be an addiction. Trusting Christ does not mean becoming sinless automatically. Repentance is a change of attitude toward God. Once a person was rebellious toward God and now he is attitude toward God is one of submission. But complete submission doesn't come all at once.

take "Lordship salvation" question...

Have you/me ANY of us here on the Board in reality made jesus Lord over ALL areas of our lives? Become sinless perfection state?

As many here seem to be advocating that to prove really saved!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Have you considered Lot?

Yes.

God declared him just and righteous even though he offered his two virgin daughters to be molested all night long by a mob of homosexuals.

Pay attention to scripture please. This is what Peter says

and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men

He was righteous because he was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men. That was a righteous aspect of Lot. Which Peter clarifies in the rest of that verse

and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);

Was he being righteous when he offered his daughters? Or when he chose to leave Abraham and attempt to take the best land for himself? No. Also note Peter calls him righteous before his rescue. God still needed to rescue him. So there was an aspect of righteousness to Lot and maybe Lot was even saved in the end. Yet look at the consequences of his sin. His daughter raped him, he lost everything including his wife. But also note unless peter was insane he didn't contradict himself peter also said

So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander. 2 Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation

Look at that! We must will to live rightly and grow into salvation. So much for a total passive salvation. We actively enjoy our salvation by daily laying down our lives, sharing in the sufferings of Christ. By being saved! You are stuck at belief and forgiveness. Your soteriology fails to take you to the next step. Living out your faith in righteousness being transformed into the very image of Jesus Christ. Which you do. In the Power Jesus gives you through the Holy Spirit! You discipline yourself and remain in Christ as it is the Holy Spirit that leads you into that righteousness to make you just in deed not in legal fiction.

 

[DHK]

Yes.
Pay attention to scripture please. This is what Peter says
He was righteous because he was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men. That was a righteous aspect of Lot. Which Peter clarifies in the rest of that verse Was he being righteous when he offered his daughters? Or when he chose to leave Abraham and attempt to take the best land for himself? No. Also note Peter calls him righteous before his rescue. God still needed to rescue him. So there was an aspect of righteousness to Lot and maybe Lot was even saved in the end. Yet look at the consequences of his sin. His daughter raped him, he lost everything including his wife. But also note unless peter was insane he didn't contradict himself peter also said Look at that! We must will to live rightly and grow into salvation. So much for a total passive salvation.

Read your answers again; this time more thoughtfully.
Consider again.
1. He was a righteous man that sinned.
2. Even after escaping out of Sodom he sinned. He was not completely innocent in that immoral act.
3. Peter's application was to Christians. He was not writing to either the unsaved or even to backslidden Christians. He was writing to mature Christians who were suffering the wrath of the Roman government and undergoing intense persecution. His words have nothing to do with salvation; sanctification, yes; salvation, no. They were Christians already.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Read your answers again; this time more thoughtfully.
Consider again.

Ok.

1. He was a righteous man that sinned.
2. Even after escaping out of Sodom he sinned. He was not completely innocent in that immoral act.
3. Peter's application was to Christians. He was not writing to either the unsaved or even to backslidden Christians. He was writing to mature Christians who were suffering the wrath of the Roman government and undergoing intense persecution. His words have nothing to do with salvation; sanctification, yes; salvation, no. They were Christians already.

Lets look at the context of 2nd Peter because to get a real sense of what he's talking about with regard to Lot we must look at the Context.
1) Peter is address Christians as you have said. Then he tells them to make an effort to follow up their faith by their actions. This is living out your salvation by being righteous indeed not just as a legal fiction.

For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue,[e] and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness,

Then look at what he says

Therefore, brothers,[g] be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11

Note the option of falling if you don't practice these qualities. The He Warns them about false teachers

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.

Maybe support contraceptives and abortion?

3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words.

Very stern warning against teachers who teach false things and practice immorality.

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell[a] and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;...and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); ...then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials,[d] and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who indulge[e] in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority.

The argument here isn't about Lots salvation but its an if then statment that even when immorality was all around lot; lot being righteous in that he was distressed by evil men and their actions was rescued by God; God therefore knows how to punish unrighteous and deliver the righteous. This then is differed to the Christians who were beset by false teachers allowing for immorality and disobedience to God in their faith. Even disobedient to authority. Baptist Churches have no authoritative structure because the Pastor is elected if the congregation doesn't like the Pastor they vote him out. There is no following authority. There is only following majority rule. Which brings me back to the passive justification/righteousness again. Faith isn't passive its active. And Sanctification is a must not an option.
Lets follow up with the rest of what Peter says

They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves[g] of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them

I think its pretty clear here that God doesn't want a legal fiction but to make us indeed righteous and actually be justified as he daily transforms us into his image.

 

[The Biblicist]

Probably a more accurate review of what you believe is to replace the word

No, that fits your theory of justification not mine. Justification is not a process but a completed point action and this is noted by Paul's use of the Aorist and Perfect tenses as well as clearly stating it occurred prior to circucmision rather than concurrent with circumcision. Second, Justifying faith is not a process as with faithfulness but a completed action at the point of justification or do you remember my sentence example? "I beleived in Christ and therefore I am faithful to Christ."

Justification which righteousness is a complete Legal fiction.

No fiction whatsoever. Christ as the second Adam acted as our legal representative and his righeousness is not fictious nor his sin penalty but is very real and the legal imputation is very real. Your problem is that you cannot distinguish between REAL LEGAL REPRESENTATION (justification) and REAL PRACTICAL APPLICATION (sanctification) but confuse the two.

According to you on paper before God you are righteous but not in reality because you still sin.

You deny that Christ "FINISHED" or PAID IN FULL the legal obligations of those he represented on the cross. You deny the whole idea of a SACRIFICIAL LAMB OF GOD repeatedly taught throughout the book of Leviticus as a SUBSTITUTIONARY SATISFACTION in behalf of the people of God. You reject and replace it by YOUR OWN WORKS.

Its play pretend righteousness.

It is Christ's righteousness that actually satisfied God's Law and Christ's death that actually satisfied the penalty of sin for those who RECEIVE it by faith. No pretension about it. What you don't understand and thus deny, is the fact that the only reason God can accept our incompleted righeosness is because the righteousness of Christ COMPLETELY SATISFIED all legal demands of the Law against us and that is why we are DEAD TO THE LAW.

All one has to do is believe and be passive and voila any obedience is optional because you exclude obedience (Active participation or contribution). You yourself have said it.

Justification by faith is passive but not sanctification!! Sanctification is active obedience. I will say it again! There is no such thing as a justified man who is not also regenerated and there is no such thing as a regenreated man who is not being progressively sanctified to SOME DEGREE and who will not be wholly sanctified BEFORE He meets Christ in his resurrected body.

Salvation therefore accordingly is only an intellectual assent which your emotions have consented to believe in a heartfelt way that Jesus is capable of freeing you from your sins. Whether in fact he does in reality is optional because justification isn't so in fact but in legality (legal fiction) until you die. That is your stance.

This is what you WISH was my stance but in fact it is not! This is what you want to twist and turn to make my stance but it is not!

I don't believe that a justified man is an unregenerated man and I do not believe a regenerated man is without some degree of progressive sanctification. Although justification by faith is WITHOUT OUR WORKS (it is not without Christ's finished works) regeneration or being created in Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:10a) is not without good works being made manifested (Eph. 2:10b).

Note regeneration in your view is soley passive.

That is precisely what John says in John 1:13 - our will is passive in the creative act of new birth. However, our will is not passive in progressive sanctification which is the NECESSARY consequence of New birth.

Transformation into the likeness of Christ to you is only passive.

Again, in regeneration we are passive as that is the work of God by the will of God which is a creative act of God (Jn. 1:13; Eph. 2:10a). However, regeneration provides an inward NEW man created in the image of God in true holiness and righteousness (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10) which we ACTIVELY "put on" by faith just as we initially were justified by faith (Col. 2:6). Putting on the new man produces faithfulness to Christ in a progressive incompleted degree of righteousness which is called our "walk"!

And since you abhore following in obedience

Since when are you the authority for what I believe or do not believe? You don't even acknowledge my own explanations but insert your explanations that repudiate my own beliefs!!! The justified man iis a regenerated man and therefore by nature desires to please God and obey him. This desire is not always realized because of many different kinds of obstacles to that obedience being manfested in our lives. Indwelling sin is one obstacle that prevents that desire from becoming reality by our words and actions (Rom. 7:14-25). That obstacle is partially and progressively overcome by faith in the power of the indwelling Spirit rather than in our own will power and ability (Rom. 8:9-13). I say "partially and progressively" because I no time in this flesh do we ever live wholly without sin (1 Jn. 1:8-10). Hence, it is always an incompleted and imperfect obedience at best. Besides an internal obstacle of indwelling sin there are external obstacles (the world, circumstances, Satan, demons) that prevent the child of God from fulfilling the righteous and holy desire to please God as they would. However, none of these obstacles change the desire of the new inward man to please God (Rom. 7:14-25) only hinder the implementation of that desire at times.

and Jointly Sharing in Christ sufferings as Paul speaks of it

Paul is not speaking of completing Christ's sufferings on the cross as that was "finished" by Christ "once and for all." Instead he wants to experience greater fellowship with Christ that comes by publically identifying with the doctrine and practices of Christ which bring sufferings. It is through those sufferings that greater grace, greater growth and greater temporal blessings now are experienced and greater rewards in heaven.

and not be held to be the Royalty he made you to be with its activities and responsibilities. You hold that all you have to do is devoid yourself of discipline and recieve transformation into the likeness of Christ. Passive.

You "imagine" that because I believe our faith is a passive receptor of God's promises fulfilled by Christ in our behalf, and because I believe we are passive in the work of regeneration which is a creative work of God that I also believe we are passive in sanctification by the Holy Spirit of God! You might wish that to be true but that is a vain and empty wish based upon your "imagination" rather than fact.

However, I will admit that we must first be PASSIVE in sanctification before we can do anything for the glory of God. We must first die to ourselves, confessing we can do nothing by ourselves for the glory of God. We must first submit to the indwelling Person and power of the Holy Spirit so that it is God Who works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure and not we ourselves.

Try again!

 

[The Biblicist]

Yes.


Pay attention to scripture please. This is what Peter says
He was righteous because .

Here is the fundemental error in your thinking. A man can be righteous by his legal position before God based upon what Christ actually provided as his legal representative in his behalf just as we positionally now are seated in heaven in Christ (Eph. 2:7).

A man can be righteous by regenerative nature. Even when Paul was not performing righteousness, becuase he was attempting to serve God after the power of His own will (Rom. 7:18) he still had a righteous inward man that delighted in the law of God. Even when John was writing the first epistle of John by inspiration he could use the present tense and still say he was not without sin and yet he was not without righteousness either - 1 Jn. 1:8-10.

Only a regenerated man can be progressively but incompletely "righteous" by his motives, words and actions because the lost man and his motivde, words and actions cannot possbly be regarded by God as righteous AT ALL!

Lot was in Sodon and that was sin because he did not separate himself from the ungodly but became their representative sitting in the gate. Lot's testimony was so bad his own children would not heed his warning and flee. Lot was willing to give his daughters to be molested even in the presence of angels. Lot had to be taken by the hand and pulled out of Sodom.

Lot's heart was righteous becuase it was a "new" heart given to him by God. That heart was vexed by the wickedness he saw but his own disobedience robbed him of the power to even flee Sodom and its sins because he had to be forcibly led by the hand and pulled out of it. The only difference between Paul and Lot is the measure of grace and faith given to each by God.

All your confessions, pennance, sacraments will not make you sinless and so the only difference between you and Lot is Christ as your salvation and the degree of sin, but not sin. You are still a sinner no matter how many times they sprinkle a little water on your head or how many times you partake of a little peice of bread or how many times you confess to your preist or how many times you receive last rites. You in your own person NEVER will satisfy God's standard of righteousness to miss hell or enter heaven.

 

[DHK]

Ok.
Lets look at the context of 2nd Peter because to get a real sense of what he's talking about with regard to Lot we must look at the Context.
1) Peter is address Christians as you have said. Then he tells them to make an effort to follow up their faith by their actions. This is living out your salvation by being righteous indeed not just as a legal fiction.

No you have this wrong. This is a list of the fruit of the Spirit. You can compare the list to the list given in Galatians 5:22,23:

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

However there are a few more that are mentioned here.
Faith is mentioned as a fruit of the Spirit. It is given only to Christians and has nothing to do with salvation.

Furthermore these traits in 2Peter are not accumulative. The word "add," means more like "follow" or they lead one to another. Faith happens to be first because it is foundational.

Then look at what he says Note the option of falling if you don't practice these qualities. The He Warns them about false teachers

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
There is no option of falling given. These are the traits of a Christian. They are given to a Christian for encouragement. I encourage my children in the same way. Follow this advice and you will not fail. (But they will always be my children) In the Christian life, we may stumble and fall as Peter himself did, but we cannot lose our salvation. Salvation is not being discussed here; the Christian life is.

Maybe support contraceptives and abortion?

Whether I do or whether I don't is a non-issue. It has nothing to do with this passage.
Besides that you have just skipped over 12 verses and into another chapter to another subject to get to this point. Nothing like a change in context without telling the reader what your doing.

Very stern warning against teachers who teach false things and practice immorality.

And so it is. Keep in mind we are now in chapter two. It has nothing to do with chapter one.

The argument here isn't about Lots salvation but its an if then statment that even when immorality was all around lot; lot being righteous in that he was distressed by evil men and their actions was rescued by God; God therefore knows how to punish unrighteous and deliver the righteous. This then is differed to the Christians who were beset by false teachers allowing for immorality and disobedience to God in their faith. Even disobedient to authority. Baptist Churches have no authoritative structure because the Pastor is elected if the congregation doesn't like the Pastor they vote him out. There is no following authority. There is only following majority rule. Which brings me back to the passive justification/righteousness again. Faith isn't passive its active. And Sanctification is a must not an option.

Now you have just quoted a passage that contains examples of three different judgements from verses 3-10.
1. The judgment that will come on the rebellion of the angels that fell from heaven.
2. The judgment that will come on Sodom and Gomorrah.
3. The judgment that will come on those that perished in the Flood.
These will all stand again before the Lord in the Great White Throne Judgment.

The key verse in the passage is vs. 9:

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

This has nothing to do with Baptist Churches, church structure, church polity, church authority, etc. Your application here is totally off base. If you were wise you would take your own counsel to heart:

In his last interview, an Italian cardinal condemned the Roman Catholic Church as "200 years behind" and needing radical transformation.
Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini, 85, died Friday and his interview with the Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera was published the next day.
He lambasted the church for being “tired” and said that its “prayer rooms are empty.”
In the interview, he also took a progressive stance on marriages after divorce and said the church should be more open to blended families or risk losing future generations as members.
"A woman is abandoned by her husband and finds a new companion to look after her and her children. A second love succeeds. If this family is discriminated against, not just the mother will be cut off but also her children," he said.
Martini was also famous for comments about the use of contraception, that in some cases it should be viewed as acceptable.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/cardinal-says-catholic-church-200-years-behind-155920067.html

Lets follow up with the rest of what Peter says I think its pretty clear here that God doesn't want a legal fiction but to make us indeed righteous and actually be justified as he daily transforms us into his image.

Its pretty clear that you have no idea what the chapter is talking about. Go and read the book of Jude. You will find many parallels. This chapter is speaking about false teachers, their characteristics, and the judgments that will follow them. Peter warns about false teachers. This has nothing to do about salvation, sanctification, or any of the topics that you started with. You are way off topic here. You have jumped to the last few verses now of chapter two, far from near the beginning of chapter one where you started. How can one expect to trust this kind of exposition when you are trying to make a point of salvation relating to sanctification. You are all over the place.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

What do you get when you cross a Jehovah's Witness with a Unitarian-Universalist?

A person who is hanging out on your front doorstep for no particular reason.
:smilewinkgrin:

Now that is funny! :laugh:

 

[Michael Wrenn]

One reason I haven't commented on the exchange going on here is because I don't hold to either of the positions.

 

[Alive in Christ]

One reason I haven't commented on the exchange going on here is because I don't hold to either of the positions.

Michael Wrenn...

I would be interested in in your view, if you dont mind.

 

[Yeshua1]

Well since I believed God when he said that he layed down his life for me and I followed him into baptism and I wasn't required to be circumcized by Jewish law I would go with the former.


First of all faith isn't devoid of the actions of faith as James says. Secondly, I continue to grow and mature by obeying Jesus in my words and deeds because I have faith. Next ask yourself this question. Does Jesus exempt you from following the 10 commandments? Can you willing break them not repent of breaking them and be saved? In short now that you have faith are you now free to murder? Are you now free to covet? Are you now free to commit adultry? All of it with no consequence in your relationship to God? Because in essense that is what you are saying.

You are sounding JUST like the critics of p[aul and the Gospel of "free Grace!"

Christians , of course, are NOT freed to keep on sinning, as we are now found with a new nature and indwelt by the Spirit, BOTH of them wanting to please God!

Forever saved at the moment jesus is received by faith, BUT also for the rest of our lives becoming conformed into the image of christ, its that "Romans thing!"

 

[Yeshua1]

No, that fits your theory of justification not mine. Justification is not a process but a completed point action and this is noted by Paul's use of the Aorist and Perfect tenses as well as clearly stating it occurred prior to circucmision rather than concurrent with circumcision. Second, Justifying faith is not a process as with faithfulness but a completed action at the point of justification or do you remember my sentence example? "I beleived in Christ and therefore I am faithful to Christ."





No fiction whatsoever. Christ as the second Adam acted as our legal representative and his righeousness is not fictious nor his sin penalty but is very real and the legal imputation is very real. Your problem is that you cannot distinguish between REAL LEGAL REPRESENTATION (justification) and REAL PRACTICAL APPLICATION (sanctification) but confuse the two.




You deny that Christ "FINISHED" or PAID IN FULL the legal obligations of those he represented on the cross. You deny the whole idea of a SACRIFICIAL LAMB OF GOD repeatedly taught throughout the book of Leviticus as a SUBSTITUTIONARY SATISFACTION in behalf of the people of God. You reject and replace it by YOUR OWN WORKS.




It is Christ's righteousness that actually satisfied God's Law and Christ's death that actually satisfied the penalty of sin for those who RECEIVE it by faith. No pretension about it. What you don't understand and thus deny, is the fact that the only reason God can accept our incompleted righeosness is because the righteousness of Christ COMPLETELY SATISFIED all legal demands of the Law against us and that is why we are DEAD TO THE LAW.



Justification by faith is passive but not sanctification!! Sanctification is active obedience. I will say it again! There is no such thing as a justified man who is not also regenerated and there is no such thing as a regenreated man who is not being progressively sanctified to SOME DEGREE and who will not be wholly sanctified BEFORE He meets Christ in his resurrected body.



This is what you WISH was my stance but in fact it is not! This is what you want to twist and turn to make my stance but it is not!

I don't believe that a justified man is an unregenerated man and I do not believe a regenerated man is without some degree of progressive sanctification. Although justification by faith is WITHOUT OUR WORKS (it is not without Christ's finished works) regeneration or being created in Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:10a) is not without good works being made manifested (Eph. 2:10b).





That is precisely what John says in John 1:13 - our will is passive in the creative act of new birth. However, our will is not passive in progressive sanctification which is the NECESSARY consequence of New birth.



Again, in regeneration we are passive as that is the work of God by the will of God which is a creative act of God (Jn. 1:13; Eph. 2:10a). However, regeneration provides an inward NEW man created in the image of God in true holiness and righteousness (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10) which we ACTIVELY "put on" by faith just as we initially were justified by faith (Col. 2:6). Putting on the new man produces faithfulness to Christ in a progressive incompleted degree of righteousness which is called our "walk"!






Since when are you the authority for what I believe or do not believe? You don't even acknowledge my own explanations but insert your explanations that repudiate my own beliefs!!! The justified man iis a regenerated man and therefore by nature desires to please God and obey him. This desire is not always realized because of many different kinds of obstacles to that obedience being manfested in our lives. Indwelling sin is one obstacle that prevents that desire from becoming reality by our words and actions (Rom. 7:14-25). That obstacle is partially and progressively overcome by faith in the power of the indwelling Spirit rather than in our own will power and ability (Rom. 8:9-13). I say "partially and progressively" because I no time in this flesh do we ever live wholly without sin (1 Jn. 1:8-10). Hence, it is always an incompleted and imperfect obedience at best. Besides an internal obstacle of indwelling sin there are external obstacles (the world, circumstances, Satan, demons) that prevent the child of God from fulfilling the righteous and holy desire to please God as they would. However, none of these obstacles change the desire of the new inward man to please God (Rom. 7:14-25) only hinder the implementation of that desire at times.





Paul is not speaking of completing Christ's sufferings on the cross as that was "finished" by Christ "once and for all." Instead he wants to experience greater fellowship with Christ that comes by publically identifying with the doctrine and practices of Christ which bring sufferings. It is through those sufferings that greater grace, greater growth and greater temporal blessings now are experienced and greater rewards in heaven.




You "imagine" that because I believe our faith is a passive receptor of God's promises fulfilled by Christ in our behalf, and because I believe we are passive in the work of regeneration which is a creative work of God that I also believe we are passive in sanctification by the Holy Spirit of God! You might wish that to be true but that is a vain and empty wish based upon your "imagination" rather than fact.

However, I will admit that we must first be PASSIVE in sanctification before we can do anything for the glory of God. We must first die to ourselves, confessing we can do nothing by ourselves for the glory of God. We must first submit to the indwelling Person and power of the Holy Spirit so that it is God Who works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure and not we ourselves.

Try again!

Wouldn't the RCC be guilty of 'trampling underfoot the precious blood of the Son of god", and thus be facing severe judgement from God?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Michael Wrenn...

I would be interested in in your view, if you dont mind.

I have stated it in other places but really didn't want to get into it again for that reason, but also because it has been the catalyst for the most vile accusations being posted about me that I have ever encountered.

Briefly, I don't agree with the RC doctrines of sin, and I don't agree with Calvinistic penal substitution and forensic justification; the former leads to works-righteousness and superstition; the latter is legalistic, immoral, and unjust.

Now whatever insults and condemnations get posted this time, I will not respond in kind. I have already hashed and rehashed this, I know what the scriptures and the first millenium of Christendom taught, and I am not a follower of RC or Magisterial Protestantism on this issue; I follow the scriptures, the earliest churches, the early Greek fathers, the ancient Celtic church, and the Anabaptists.

Thank you for asking me about my view.

 

[Yeshua1]

I have stated it in other places but really didn't want to get into it again for that reason, but also because it has been the catalyst for the most vile accusations being posted about me that I have ever encountered.

Briefly, I don't agree with the RC doctrines of sin, and I don't agree with Calvinistic penal substitution and forensic justification; the former leads to works-righteousness and superstition; the latter is legalistic, immoral, and unjust.

Now whatever insults and condemnations get posted this time, I will not respond in kind. I have already hashed and rehashed this, I know what the scriptures and the first millenium of Christendom taught, and I am not a follower of RC or Magisterial Protestantism on this issue; I follow the scriptures, the earliest churches, the early Greek fathers, the ancient Celtic church, and the Anabaptists.

Thank you for asking me about my view.

Why not just accept the teachings on this by jesus and the Apostles though?