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I think the point your side is missing, both here and other places, is that Adam had no real choice because God knew what choice he was going to freely make. There was no chance that Adam was not going to sin, unless you are an open theist.
I agree with you all the way through until this point, npetreley. Scripture, on several occasions, gives scenarios in which things which did not occur are said to have been possible occurences. In those instances, God is sovereign not because he controls all decisions of others, but because he remains in control no matter the decisions of others. Therefore I conclude that when God sets forth a scenario in which a decision is demanded, a real decision is possible and free will can be exercised. I think that is the difference between us. I think I can defend my position so I'm stickin' to it!
See my explanation above, Yelsew. I have not impugned the sovereignty of the Creator. You have not answered the question.
...which is the difference between our positions. If Adam would have chosen to say "no," then God would have foreknown something differently. If the outcome was foreordained, it could not have been a free choice. Your position leaves you with the idea that God ordained Adam to sin. My position leaves me with the idea that God allowed Adam to choose whether to sin or not.
Had this happened, and God not allowed Adam to make a choice to choose or reject, we still end up with robots. Your scenario is equivalent with Lewis' robot analogy, so you will have to find another to back up your position that there could be another choice.
Talk to the majority of believers who would say that they believe that they love God out of their own free will. Saul chose to disobey God after being chosen, and was lost because of it. Solomon was given an amazing gift by God, and threw it all away because of his choices to the contrary. The Arminian position of free will that is spoken so eloquently by Arminius, Wesley, et. al. should provide you with enough Scripture to confirm my position.
The Jews were given a choice several times by God in the Old Testament. Jeremiah talks about a real choice in his pottery alleghory. Jesus Christ talks about choice in his parables, from the idea of the prodigal son to the parable of the wedding feast, where all were called, and only a few came. I have Biblical evidence to back up my position, so stop pretending that Arminians do not have such backing.
I was answering your previous post. Perhaps you don't like me jumping ahead of what you are trying to do (which I can already figure outwhere you are going with this...)
From a strict Biblical stance, there is no reference that shows why God allowed Satan to disobey, either when he fell from heaven or during Eve's temptation. We are having to infer these answers based upon our best possible understanding of the total of Scriptures. We also have to infer what God's intentions were for doing so, since there is no Biblical Scripture that addresses this instance.
Why would this be? I would imagine that Adam did love God in his own free will. Billions have loved God using their free will. So, you are taking a premise and using one example of failure on man's part and ascribing it to God.
So in your position God is the source of evil. Okay.
I agree with you all the way through until this point, npetreley.</font>[/QUOTE]Then you are contradicting yourself. You already admitted that God knew beforehand that Adam would sin. Therefore God -- by definition -- foreordained that it would happen exactly the way He knew it would happen. He had other choices. He could have created things differently, managed things differently, or not created anything at all (to name but a few alternatives).
Scripture includes many concepts that are anthropomorphized for the benefit of our understanding. That doesn't mean that things were contingent from God's perspective. In fact, God clearly states in several places that nothing is contingent for Him. For example, Isaiah 46:
Yes, in a sense this is true, and it echoes what I said about Adam having free will from his own perspective. But the fact that God foreknows every decision and permits only those decisions according to His will means -- from His perspective -- that those decisions could not turn out any other way. So you may have the illusion of free will because you see things only from your own perspective. But what you do and what you decide is foreordained (known ahead of time, permitted ahead of time, and therefore set in stone) from the beginning.
But you already admitted that God knew in advance that Adam would choose to sin, and deliberately permitted it with this knowledge. It is purely a mind game to say that Adam might have done something else, since God already knew exactly what Adam would do.
No, your position is that God foreordained that Adam would sin. Your answers to my questions say that very thing, since you agree that God knew in advance it would happen, knew in advance the consequences of allowing satan into the garden, had the power to stop satan from going into the garden, yet permitted all these things knowing exactly how it would all turn out if He did so.
You're so close to the answer to my question, I'll bet you can taste it.
If you could only get past your humanistic view of things, you'd be there already.How can God be sovereign if Adam had free will?
That's an interesting statement from you Pastor Larry. You argue frequently that man has a free will today and exercises it. It's just that, because he is dead in sins he can choose only to do the wrong. Now you are saying that Adam had no free at all before he sinned. Did he act according to his nature as well? Did he have a sin nature prior to sinning or did he not have a sin nature and sin as an exercise of free will? Are you saying that Adam had no free will prior to the fall but gained it afterward?
I know of no evidence that allows me to lay odds of the probability of his sinning. I don't know the answer to that. What I do know is that he was given a choice and he chose freely to sin. That is why Paul says that sin entered the world because of Adam.
Why is it a mind game? Do you not agree that this is true?
Because your end result would still be a "robot." It is like protecting a creature from making a free choice - similar to putting a child in a playpen so they don't get into trouble. Placing a 40-year-old in a playpen is ridiculous - so the same is "rolling the dice" so man chooses not to sin.
IN that exact situation, Adam could have chosen not sin. That's the point, which you are unable to accept.
Funny. I tell you the exact opposite and you say this. Kinda like what Calvinists say over and over again about Arminians. Why am I not surprised?
If Adam had no choice to say "no" to Satan, then the fall would have been ordained, and thus, God's "fault." If Adam had a choice to say "no" to Satan, then the fall is not God's fault. It was Adam's. There is the difference.
It doesn't contradict for the reasons that I've posted earlier. You're not addressing them, so Ifeel no need to repeat myself, really. You're trying to get a specific answer out of me, and it is not going to happen. I just don't see things that way.
Funny. The ironic thing is that the Calvinists that I know are much, much more humanistic in their actions than the Arminians I know. Perhaps it is piety.You're so close to the answer to my question, I'll bet you can taste it.
SwaimJ said,
My question answered your question! There is simply no way for anything of creation to impugn the Sovereignty of the Creator!
