A listing of verses that speak of the Total Depravity of man

[annsni]

I thought this was a good listing of verses for this subject so I wanted to share. What do you think?

http://www.traviscarden.com/archive/2007/01/08/total-depravity-verse-list

 

[gb93433]

I thought this was a good listing of verses for this subject so I wanted to share. What do you think?

How would you tie that in with what scripture teaches in Romans 1 where it says people are without excuse?

 

[annsni]

??

People are without excuse because they know who God is through His revelation of Himself.

Read the Scriptures yourself to see how it fits.

 

[just-want-peace]

How would you tie that in with what scripture teaches in Romans 1 where it says people are without excuse?

I personally see no conflict here.

IOW, if you break your leg, it's your choice whether you go to an orthopedic specialists, a gen. practitioner, or try to damage the repair yourself.

Man is born into sin (broken leg), so the choice is the specialists (Jesus Christ), gen practitioner (one of another multiple religions) or self repair (total atheism).

Before the broken leg (before one has any knowledge of sin), one has no reason to seek a remedy. After the broken leg (one becoming aware of sin), while it may take a while for the solution to come, one then decides how to remedy the problem, as it is known of the various options ( IE --people are without excuse).

A crude analogy I'll admit, but I do think it makes the point.

 

[gb93433]

??

People are without excuse because they know who God is through His revelation of Himself.

While you gave a trite answer you failed to answer my question.

Did you actually read the first sentence on that website? "The doctrine of total depravity (or total inability) says that all men, as a consequence of the Fall, are born morally corrupt, enslaved to sin, at enmity with God, and unable to please Him or even of themselves to turn to Christ for salvation."

That website was loaded with prooftexting.

My Bible says, "You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart."

I see both man and God working together. God as the initiator and man as the responder. Look at what Abraham came out of and where he went--polytheism to godliness. Where was a Bible then?

People are without excuse because God has made himself evident and people can make decisions to walk with or deny God.

 

[gb93433]

I personally see no conflict here.

IOW, if you break your leg, it's your choice whether you go to an orthopedic specialists, a gen. practitioner, or try to damage the repair yourself.

Man is born into sin (broken leg), so the choice is the specialists (Jesus Christ), gen practitioner (one of another multiple religions) or self repair (total atheism).

Before the broken leg (before one has any knowledge of sin), one has no reason to seek a remedy. After the broken leg (one becoming aware of sin), while it may take a while for the solution to come, one then decides how to remedy the problem, as it is known of the various options ( IE --people are without excuse).

A crude analogy I'll admit, but I do think it makes the point.

I like your analogy. I have also liked the idea of cattle in a pasture. The cattle can eat within the confines of where the farmer places them. There is both the choice of the farmer and the cattle. The farmer does not force the cattle to eat or not eat. He wants the cattle to eat to remain healthy.

 

[donnA]

My Bible says,

isn't that the same bible we all have.

The op is about the total depravity of man, if your disagreeing then aren't you disagreeing that man is not totally depraved. as we see, in THE bible, we can depend on the fact man is totally depraved. or at least God thinks so anyway.

 

[canadyjd]

(quoting the link) "The doctrine of total depravity (or total inability) says that all men, as a consequence of the Fall, are born morally corrupt, enslaved to sin, at enmity with God, and unable to please Him or even of themselves to turn to Christ for salvation."

and

I see both man and God working together. God as the initiator and man as the responder.

Exactly how is that different from what was stated? If man cannot, of himself, come to God...and you say that God initiates the contact with man and he responds....what is the difference?

People are without excuse because God has made himself evident and people can make decisions to walk with or deny God.

I think Romans 1 says that everyone chose to deny God.

BTW, what's wrong with "prooftext" as long as they are in context?

peace to youraying:

 

[webdog]

Exactly how is that different from what was stated? If man cannot, of himself, come to God...and you say that God initiates the contact with man and he responds....what is the difference?

The difference is those who don't respond. Calvinsim teaches the reprobate man cannot respond because God has not reached out, yet are held accountable for rejecting a God that never reached out to them, nor died for. It's baffling that one can believe that some are held responsible for rejecting Christ who didnt' come to earth to atone for their sin in the first place.

 

[webdog]

??

People are without excuse because they know who God is through His revelation of Himself.

Read the Scriptures yourself to see how it fits.

That's not what Romans 1 says entirely.
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

It is clear the Truth was presented to them, and THEY made the decision to reject it. THAT is why they are without excuse.

 

[Amy.G]

That's not what Romans 1 says entirely.
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

It is clear the Truth was presented to them, and THEY made the decision to reject it. THAT is why they are without excuse.

Not only that, but if we go on to verse 28:

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


Once one goes this far in their rejection of God it seems very hard, if not impossible for them to be saved. But they have had plenty of opportunities to turn to God beforehand. So they are without excuse. But the more one rejects God's calling, the harder their heart will become, until it's too late.

 

[canadyjd]

The difference is those who don't respond. Calvinsim teaches the reprobate man cannot respond because God has not reached out, yet are held accountable for rejecting a God that never reached out to them, nor died for.

Romans 1 is speaking of the general revelation of God found in creation. That revelation is enough to condemn everyone who rejects it, and that includes everyone.

It's baffling that one can believe that some are held responsible for rejecting Christ who didnt' come to earth to atone for their sin in the first place.

They are held responsible for rejected God, who has revealed Himself in creation.

Do you believe that everyone that has ever lived has heard the gospel of Jesus Christ? If they didn't hear of Christ, and therefore had no chance to accept or reject, were they condemned to hell?

peace to youraying:

 

[gb93433]

Do you believe that everyone that has ever lived has heard the gospel of Jesus Christ? If they didn't hear of Christ, and therefore had no chance to accept or reject, were they condemned to hell?

While I agree with you generally I still have to ask myself some questions. Let me give an example. A friend of mine who was a missionary in Africa for about 25 years told me of a time when a friend of his felt led to go to a village to talk with people about Christ. It was a village where Christ had not been named. The first person he met was a man who had a dream about Jesus and did not know who the Jesus was the he dreamed about. So for the first time the man came to know the same Jesus he dreamed about and received Christ that day.

 

[webdog]

Romans 1 is speaking of the general revelation of God found in creation. That revelation is enough to condemn everyone who rejects it, and that includes everyone.

General Revelation is a term used by calvinists to reject the very plain meaning of Scripture. John 3:18 states what this rejection entails, believing not in The Truth, not in God's creation.

Do you believe that everyone that has ever lived has heard the gospel of Jesus Christ? If they didn't hear of Christ, and therefore had no chance to accept or reject, were they condemned to hell?

I for one, am not comfortable stating everyone hasn't heard. Fact is, I'm not God. Only those who are in hell and God know the answer to this. I do know it sounds like they have from Romans 10:18. We are God's messengers, but not the only messengers. Angels and Christ Himself (Saul's conversion) have also presented the Gospel. I will not limit God with my finite reasoning.

 

[annsni]

General Revelation is a term used by calvinists to reject the very plain meaning of Scripture. John 3:18 states what this rejection entails, believing not in The Truth, not in God's creation.

Rejection is rejection. Every man has had God revealed to him. Those who don't believe in Him are condemned and those who do are not. What's the problem? General Revelation is a Biblical concept as per Romans 1. It's clearly there.

I for one, am not comfortable stating everyone hasn't heard. Fact is, I'm not God. Only those who are in hell and God know the answer to this. I do know it sounds like they have from Romans 10:18. We are God's messengers, but not the only messengers. Angels and Christ Himself (Saul's conversion) have also presented the Gospel. I will not limit God with my finite reasoning.

So true - So true. I am to just to my job and no less. My job is to tell those around me the Gospel.

 

[just-want-peace]

General Revelation is a term used by calvinists to reject the very plain meaning of Scripture. John 3:18 states what this rejection entails, believing not in The Truth, not in God's creation.
I for one, am not comfortable stating everyone hasn't heard. Fact is, I'm not God. Only those who are in hell and God know the answer to this. I do know it sounds like they have from Romans 10:18. We are God's messengers, but not the only messengers. Angels and Christ Himself (Saul's conversion) have also presented the Gospel. I will not limit God with my finite reasoning.

Emphasis mine


This is, without a doubt, the most sensible comment I've read on this board in quite a while!!!

Would that it were more universally accepted.:thumbs::thumbs:

Edited to add---- This one concept if practiced by all would virtually eliminate the, IMNSHO, idiotic controversies over KJVO, Calvinism, end-times interpretations & who knows how many others.

I believe as I do on each of the above (and other topics) because that is how 1) I've been taught & 2) how I've interpreted the Word since I began to study for myself, & not depend on others.

In all likelihood each of you can say the same thing; right? I've actually changed my mind on many things, & probably will more should I live long enough.

So have you (collective "YOU") I would hope.

That being the case, I refer you to the highlighted quote of this post and simply say AMEN!!

 

[gb93433]

Emphasis mine


This is, without a doubt, the most sensible comment I've read on this board in quite a while!!!

Would that it were more universally accepted.:thumbs::thumbs:

Edited to add---- This one concept if practiced by all would virtually eliminate the, IMNSHO, idiotic controversies over KJVO, Calvinism, end-times interpretations & who knows how many others.

I believe as I do on each of the above (and other topics) because that is how 1) I've been taught & 2) how I've interpreted the Word since I began to study for myself, & not depend on others.

In all likelihood each of you can say the same thing; right? I've actually changed my mind on many things, & probably will more should I live long enough.

So have you (collective "YOU") I would hope.

That being the case, I refer you to the highlighted quote of this post and simply say AMEN!!

God will not be limited to anyone's finite mind, their inability to comprehend and practice German Rationalism.

 

[Tom Butler]

General Revelation is a term used by calvinists to reject the very plain meaning of Scripture. John 3:18 states what this rejection entails, believing not in The Truth, not in God's creation.
I for one, am not comfortable stating everyone hasn't heard. Fact is, I'm not God. Only those who are in hell and God know the answer to this. I do know it sounds like they have from Romans 10:18. We are God's messengers, but not the only messengers. Angels and Christ Himself (Saul's conversion) have also presented the Gospel. I will not limit God with my finite reasoning.

We can use our finite reasoning to deduce some clear teachings from scripture.

For instance, Matthew 10. Jesus chose the 12, ordained them and sent them out (v.5) but told them not to go the Gentiles and not to go to the Samaritans. Although it was clear later that the gospel was for all people, between v.5 and later there were some Gentiles and Samaritans who were not given the gospel.

Acts 16:7 Paul, Silas and Timothy decided to go to Bythinia, "but the Spirit wouldn't let them."

Matthew 11;25, Jesus had just pronounced woes on Chroazin and Bethsaida, who had seen God's mighty works but did not repent. Jesus then thanked the Father that he had hidden the truth from the wise and revealed it to babes. The truth was hidden from some people, revealed to others; and Jesus then said it was good in the Father's sight.

Right after that Jesus said that nobody knows the Father but the Son and those to whom the Son reveals him.

Curiously, Jesus immediately issued a call to all to come to him for rest.

John 12:37-40 John writes that Jesus had done many miracles, but the people would not believe. John declared that this was because the COULD NOT believe, in fulfillment of isaiah 6. He quoted the passage where the Lord tells Isaiah that he has blinded their spiritual eyes and hardened their hearts so they couldn't be converted.

 

[webdog]

We can use our finite reasoning to deduce some clear teachings from scripture.

For instance, Matthew 10. Jesus chose the 12, ordained them and sent them out (v.5) but told them not to go the Gentiles and not to go to the Samaritans. Although it was clear later that the gospel was for all people, between v.5 and later there were some Gentiles and Samaritans who were not given the gospel.

Acts 16:7 Paul, Silas and Timothy decided to go to Bythinia, "but the Spirit wouldn't let them."

Matthew 11;25, Jesus had just pronounced woes on Chroazin and Bethsaida, who had seen God's mighty works but did not repent. Jesus then thanked the Father that he had hidden the truth from the wise and revealed it to babes. The truth was hidden from some people, revealed to others; and Jesus then said it was good in the Father's sight.

Right after that Jesus said that nobody knows the Father but the Son and those to whom the Son reveals him.

Curiously, Jesus immediately issued a call to all to come to him for rest.

John 12:37-40 John writes that Jesus had done many miracles, but the people would not believe. John declared that this was because the COULD NOT believe, in fulfillment of isaiah 6. He quoted the passage where the Lord tells Isaiah that he has blinded their spiritual eyes and hardened their hearts so they couldn't be converted.

I'm sorry, but what you have deemed "finite reasoning to deduce some clear teachings" to me looks like eisegesis. Too many presuppositions in your reasoning.

 

[webdog]

Rejection is rejection. Every man has had God revealed to him. Those who don't believe in Him are condemned and those who do are not. What's the problem? General Revelation is a Biblical concept as per Romans 1. It's clearly there.

In light of Romans 10 and many other passages of Scripture, general revelation is much more than just God being known through nature. I believe the Gospel has been passed on generation to generation through the stars. The constelations tell the story of God's plan for mankind, and is seen as early as Job, probably the earliest written book of the Bible.