A listing of verses that speak of the Total Depravity of man

[canadyjd]

While I agree with you generally I still have to ask myself some questions. Let me give an example. A friend of mine who was a missionary in Africa for about 25 years told me of a time when a friend of his felt led to go to a village to talk with people about Christ. It was a village where Christ had not been named. The first person he met was a man who had a dream about Jesus and did not know who the Jesus was the he dreamed about. So for the first time the man came to know the same Jesus he dreamed about and received Christ that day.

What a beautiful story of God's grace in bringing someone to witness the gospel to one of God's elect, who then responded, under conviction of Holy Spirit, with faith in Jesus Christ unto salvation.

I didn't see your question, BTW.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

General Revelation is a term used by calvinists to reject the very plain meaning of Scripture. John 3:18 states what this rejection entails, believing not in The Truth, not in God's creation.

Romans 1 does not speak of the special revelation of Christ, as is spoken of in John 3:18. BTW, John 3:18 says they have been condemned "already". They were condemned prior to hearing about Jesus. They simply compound their error in dismissing their only hope for salvation. It is not as if Jesus came into a neutral world where some will be saved if they believe in Him and some will be lost if they don't...and everyone else (who neither rejects or accepts because they never heard) gets a free pass. The condemnation has already occurred. The world has already rejected Christ because they have rejected God.

Romans 1 refers to the revelation found in creation. It refers to a revelation made know to everyone. That is a "general" revelation, in that it goes to everyone. It says everyone rejected that revelation. It says no one seeks for God. Not even one. They have all gone asray. They are "without excuse" because they have rejected the revelation of God found in creation.

I for one, am not comfortable stating everyone hasn't heard. Fact is, I'm not God. Only those who are in hell and God know the answer to this. I do know it sounds like they have from Romans 10:18. We are God's messengers, but not the only messengers. Angels and Christ Himself (Saul's conversion) have also presented the Gospel. I will not limit God with my finite reasoning.

There is simply no historical evidence to support the theory that angels appeared and preached Christ in North/South America (unless you believe the Mormon myth) or Asia or Africa or Austrialia or any other place. The historical spread of the Gospel of Jesus Christ can be traced to Jerusalem, Judea and Sameria, and then throughout the Roman Empire of the time and so on. Just like Jesus said it would in Matt. 28.

I do not limit what God can do in any way. I can also look at modern historical records and determine if what I believe is supported by known facts.

If you have any evidence that Christ was preached by angels in any of those areas, please show me.

peace to youraying:

 

[webdog]

Romans 1 does not speak of the special revelation of Christ, as is spoken of in John 3:18. BTW, John 3:18 says they have been condemned "already". They were condemned prior to hearing about Jesus. They simply compound their error in dismissing their only hope for salvation. It is not as if Jesus came into a neutral world where some will be saved if they believe in Him and some will be lost if they don't...and everyone else (who neither rejects or accepts because they never heard) gets a free pass. The condemnation has already occurred. The world has already rejected Christ because they have rejected God.

You are missing the point of Romans 1, then. You lost me with the "neutral world" stuff

Romans 1 refers to the revelation found in creation.

It does refer to God's attributes found in nature, but that is not what is defining "Truth". You are allowing verse 19 to interpret verse 25 and the rest of Romans 1 while ignoring what's in between and surrounding.

It refers to a revelation made know to everyone. That is a "general" revelation, in that it goes to everyone. It says everyone rejected that revelation. It says no one seeks for God. Not even one. They have all gone asray. They are "without excuse" because they have rejected the revelation of God found in creation.

You have snipped and combined bits of truth to create that which is not true. People are condemned for not beliving in Christ, pure and simple, not for believing God is behind the Big Bang. When we stand before God the question will be have you believed in Christ, or rejected Christ.

There is simply no historical evidence to support the theory that angels appeared and preached Christ in North/South America (unless you believe the Mormon myth) or Asia or Africa or Austrialia or any other place.

While I have never claimed any of this, I will alude to the fact there are testimonies of similar experiences. I based my statement off of Revelation 14:6 ...Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people.
I would also like to point you to the ministry Voice of the Maryr's. If you don't get the newsletter, you should sign up. You will be amazed by the testimonies of converted muslims and other false religion converts around the world.

The historical spread of the Gospel of Jesus Christ can be traced to Jerusalem, Judea and Sameria, and then throughout the Roman Empire of the time and so on. Just like Jesus said it would in Matt. 28.

Agreed.

I do not limit what God can do in any way. I can also look at modern historical records and determine if what I believe is supported by known facts.

If your determination is based on historical records, you have indeed limited God.

If you have any evidence that Christ was preached by angels in any of those areas, please show me.

Besides Rev. 14, I can only follow the pattern given throughout the OT and in the NT where God used angels as his messengers. I can't find the Scripture where it is stated He ceased doing this, in fact we are told in the NT that we may be hosting angels unaware. Who was responsible for sharing the Gospel with Paul?

 

[canadyjd]

You are missing the point of Romans 1, then. You lost me with the "neutral world" stuff

Well, I am not so arrogant to think I know everything. However, saying I am missing the point of Romans 1, and then not telling me exactly how I have missed the point of Romans 1 by engaging the text, in context, does not convince me that I have missed the point of Romans 1.

About the "neutral world" stuff. If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that a person is condemned only for rejecting Christ as Savior. Is that your position?

What I am saying is that Christ came into a world already condemned. Christ came into a world that had already rejected God. That is clear from Romans 1, John 1, and 3, and many other passages of scripture.

Christ did not come into a world that was "neutral", that is...a world that was neither condemned nor saved, but simply waiting for God to give the opportunity or choice for either salvation or condemnation.

It does refer to God's attributes found in Scripture, but that is not what is defining "Truth".

The "truth" of Romans 1:18 is clearly identified as the attributes of God evident in His creation that reveal God to mankind. Mankind has rejected that revelation, also clear in v.21 to the end of chp. 1.

You have snipped and combined bits of truth to create that which is not true.

Again, saying it but not proving it by engaging scripture in context does not persuade me that I have erred.

People are condemned for not beliving in Christ, pure and simple, not for believing God is behind the Big Bang.

Again, that doesn't answer the question of what happens to those who have never heard of Christ? do they stand condemned? If the best you can do is to say, "well, maybe angels preached Christ to them before they died", then I would say you have gone way beyond scripture in your beliefs.

I based my statement off of Revelation 14:6 ...Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people.

The "gospel" he proclaimed was "Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters."

Context #1: This is during the great tribuation, just before Christ comes to judge.

Context #2: The "gospel" that is proclaimed is the same from Romans 1...it is an appeal to general revelation. They should give God glory based on the fact He is the creator of all things.

I would also like to point you to the ministry Voice of the Maryr's. If you don't get the newsletter, you should sign up. You will be amazed by the testimonies of converted muslims and other false religion converts around the world.

I have seen some of their testimonies. It seemed to me that they always found people to witness the gospel of Christ to, and those folks were saved. God sent them a human being, a Christian, to witness to them the truth of the gospel.

I haven't seen any that were saved by hearing angels proclaim the gospel, but I would read it if you could show me one.

Even if one person had such a testimony, that does not mean angels appeared to every single person on the planet to proclaim Christ. There is simply no evidence of that.

peace to youraying:

 

[Amy.G]

What I am saying is that Christ came into a world already condemned. Christ came into a world that had already rejected God. That is clear from Romans 1, John 1, and 3, and many other passages of scripture.

Was Abraham condemned? Noah? Moses? David? Mary? Simeon?

Only those who reject God are condemned. But some did believe, even before Christ came.

 

[canadyjd]

Was Abraham condemned? Noah? Moses? David? Mary? Simeon?

Only those who reject God are condemned. But some did believe, even before Christ came.

I have never said people were not saved prior to Christ. They were all saved by grace and belief in the promises of God, specifically pointing to Christ as the fulfillment of those promises.

Every person you mentioned believed because of special revelation, not general revelation.

God intervened in their lives.

That does not change the truth of Romans 1 that the world, every single person on it, had rejected the revelation of God found in creation.

peace to youraying: