A little sampling of church history is in order

[evangelist-7]

I present this for those who have been silently following the threads on cessationism.
As such, none of you are expected to respond, which is A-OK.

Following are the comments of some well-known Christians from the history of the church:

Justin Martyr (a.d. 100-165) boasted to the Jewish Trypho "that the prophetic gifts remain with us"
(Dialogue with Trypho, 82).

Irenaeus (a.d. 120-200) also bears witness to the presence of the gifts of the Spirit. He writes:
• "We have heard of many of the brethren who have foreknowledge of the future, visions, and prophetic utterances; others, by laying-on of hands, heal the sick and restore them to health"
(Against Heresies, 2:32,4).
• "We hear of many members of the church who have prophetic gifts, and, by the Spirit speak with all kinds of tongues, and bring men's secret thoughts to light for their own good, and expound the mysteries of God"
(Against Heresies, 5:6,1).
• "It is impossible to enumerate the charisms which throughout the world the church has received from God"
(Against Heresies, 2:32,4).

Eusebius himself concludes that the charismata were all still in operation down to the time in which Irenaeus lived (Ecclesiastical History, 5:7,6).

Apollinarius is quoted by Eusebius as saying that "the prophetic gifts must continue in the church until the final coming, as the apostle insists" (EH, 5:16,7).

Epiphanius, perhaps the most vocal opponent of the Montanists, did not attack them because they practiced the gifts of the Spirit. Indeed, he declared that "the charism [of prophecy] is not inoperative in the church. Quite the opposite. . . . The holy church of God welcomes the same [charisms] as the Montanists, but ours are real charisms, authenticated for the church by the Holy Spirit" (Panarion, 48).

Augustine (354-430), early on espoused cessationism. However, in his later writings he retracted his denial of the ongoing reality of the miraculous and carefully documented no fewer than 70 instances of divine healing in his own diocese during a two-year span (see his City of God, Book XXII, chps. 8-10).
See especially the articles by Richard Riss,
"Tongues and Other Miraculous Gifts in the Second Through Nineteenth Centuries," Basileia, 1985.

Charles Spurgeon is a case in point. Read carefully the following account taken from his autobiography:
“A city missionary, when going his rounds, met with a certain man, and seeing that he was reading one of my sermons, he asked the question, ‘Do you know Mr. Spurgeon?’ ‘Yes,’ replied the man, ‘I have every reason to know him, I have been to hear him; and, under his preaching, by God’s grace I have become a new creature in Christ Jesus. Shall I tell you how it happened? I went to the Music Hall, and took my seat in the middle of the place; Mr. Spurgeon looked at me as if he knew me, and in his sermon he pointed to me, and told the congregation that I was a shoemaker, and that I kept my shop open on Sundays; and I did, sir. I should not have minded that; but he also said that I took ninepence the Sunday before, and that there was fourpence profit out of it. I did take ninepence that day, and fourpence was just the profit; but how he should know that, I could not tell. Then it struck me that it was God who had spoken to my soul though him, so I shut up my shop the next Sunday. At first, I was afraid to go again to hear him, lest he should tell the people more about me; but afterwards I went, and the Lord met with me, and saved my soul.’” Spurgeon then adds this comment:
“I could tell as many as a dozen similar cases in which I pointed at somebody in the hall without having the slightest knowledge of the person, or any idea that what I said was right, except that I believed I was moved by the Spirit to say it; and so striking has been my description, that the persons have gone away, and said to their friends, ‘Come, see a man that told me all things that ever I did; beyond a doubt, he must have been sent of God to my soul, or else he could not have described me so exactly.’ And not only so, but I have known many instances in which the thoughts of men have been revealed from the pulpit. I have sometimes seen persons nudge their neighbours with their elbow, because they had got a smart hit, and they have been heard to say, when they were going out, ‘The preacher told us just what we said to one another when we went in at the door’”
(The Autobiography of Charles H. Spurgeon, [Curts & Jennings, 1899], Vol. II, pp. 226-227).

Taken from ... http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/gifts-in-church-history/
.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Interesting you don't mention Tertullian or Montanus.

 

[mont974x4]

I am one of those who checks those threads occasionally and rarely posts in them. I am glad to see that there is evidence in church history of people holding to the ongoing work of the Spirit in the lives of God's people. This only serves to support the evidence from the Bible itself.

That said, if people are rejecting what Scripture tells us about the gifts why would we expect them to believe what other men say about them?

I acknowledge that those who misunderstand the Scriptures or have not been taught them can, and do, benefit from the teaching.

 

[Revmitchell]

I myself am not a cessationist. I do not find anywhere in scripture declaring the gifts have currently ended. That said, the abomination of Pseudo-gifts that goes on in churches today is disgusting. My issue is not whether the gifts are still in operation today but the nature of them and how they have been absolutely twisted by the Charismatic movement.

 

[Yeshua1]

I present this for those who have been silently following the threads on cessationism.
As such, none of you are expected to respond, which is A-OK.

Following are the comments of some well-known Christians from the history of the church:

Justin Martyr (a.d. 100-165) boasted to the Jewish Trypho "that the prophetic gifts remain with us"
(Dialogue with Trypho, 82).

Irenaeus (a.d. 120-200) also bears witness to the presence of the gifts of the Spirit. He writes:
• "We have heard of many of the brethren who have foreknowledge of the future, visions, and prophetic utterances; others, by laying-on of hands, heal the sick and restore them to health"
(Against Heresies, 2:32,4).
• "We hear of many members of the church who have prophetic gifts, and, by the Spirit speak with all kinds of tongues, and bring men's secret thoughts to light for their own good, and expound the mysteries of God"
(Against Heresies, 5:6,1).
• "It is impossible to enumerate the charisms which throughout the world the church has received from God"
(Against Heresies, 2:32,4).

Eusebius himself concludes that the charismata were all still in operation down to the time in which Irenaeus lived (Ecclesiastical History, 5:7,6).

Apollinarius is quoted by Eusebius as saying that "the prophetic gifts must continue in the church until the final coming, as the apostle insists" (EH, 5:16,7).

Epiphanius, perhaps the most vocal opponent of the Montanists, did not attack them because they practiced the gifts of the Spirit. Indeed, he declared that "the charism [of prophecy] is not inoperative in the church. Quite the opposite. . . . The holy church of God welcomes the same [charisms] as the Montanists, but ours are real charisms, authenticated for the church by the Holy Spirit" (Panarion, 48).

Augustine (354-430), early on espoused cessationism. However, in his later writings he retracted his denial of the ongoing reality of the miraculous and carefully documented no fewer than 70 instances of divine healing in his own diocese during a two-year span (see his City of God, Book XXII, chps. 8-10).
See especially the articles by Richard Riss,
"Tongues and Other Miraculous Gifts in the Second Through Nineteenth Centuries," Basileia, 1985.

Charles Spurgeon is a case in point. Read carefully the following account taken from his autobiography:
“A city missionary, when going his rounds, met with a certain man, and seeing that he was reading one of my sermons, he asked the question, ‘Do you know Mr. Spurgeon?’ ‘Yes,’ replied the man, ‘I have every reason to know him, I have been to hear him; and, under his preaching, by God’s grace I have become a new creature in Christ Jesus. Shall I tell you how it happened? I went to the Music Hall, and took my seat in the middle of the place; Mr. Spurgeon looked at me as if he knew me, and in his sermon he pointed to me, and told the congregation that I was a shoemaker, and that I kept my shop open on Sundays; and I did, sir. I should not have minded that; but he also said that I took ninepence the Sunday before, and that there was fourpence profit out of it. I did take ninepence that day, and fourpence was just the profit; but how he should know that, I could not tell. Then it struck me that it was God who had spoken to my soul though him, so I shut up my shop the next Sunday. At first, I was afraid to go again to hear him, lest he should tell the people more about me; but afterwards I went, and the Lord met with me, and saved my soul.’” Spurgeon then adds this comment:
“I could tell as many as a dozen similar cases in which I pointed at somebody in the hall without having the slightest knowledge of the person, or any idea that what I said was right, except that I believed I was moved by the Spirit to say it; and so striking has been my description, that the persons have gone away, and said to their friends, ‘Come, see a man that told me all things that ever I did; beyond a doubt, he must have been sent of God to my soul, or else he could not have described me so exactly.’ And not only so, but I have known many instances in which the thoughts of men have been revealed from the pulpit. I have sometimes seen persons nudge their neighbours with their elbow, because they had got a smart hit, and they have been heard to say, when they were going out, ‘The preacher told us just what we said to one another when we went in at the door’”
(The Autobiography of Charles H. Spurgeon, [Curts & Jennings, 1899], Vol. II, pp. 226-227).

Taken from ... http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/gifts-in-church-history/
.

All that tells us is that satan and His damnable heresies were well under way among the early church, as paul predicted, and that it culmnated in the RCC being formed later on!

Still have to address the issue that MOST of the modern day Chasamatic Movement is teaching preaching doctrines NOT of and from god, but from doctrines of demons, as the Holy spirit expressly warned us against!

 

[OldRegular]

I am one of those who checks those threads occasionally and rarely posts in them. I am glad to see that there is evidence in church history of people holding to the ongoing work of the Spirit in the lives of God's people. This only serves to support the evidence from the Bible itself.

That said, if people are rejecting what Scripture tells us about the gifts why would we expect them to believe what other men say about them?

I acknowledge that those who misunderstand the Scriptures or have not been taught them can, and do, benefit from the teaching.

I don't doubt the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of people today. In fact He worked in my life to bring me to Salvation.

That being said I see no indication in Scripture that the gifts exercised by the Apostles would extend beyond the Apostolic age. Furthermore, I see no evidence in in the long history of the Church that such gifts were and are common.

I would not deny that there are cases of apparent miraculous healing but is there any evidence of anyone being raised from the dead. I know that people are brought out of cardiac arrest, I was one of those but I was not dead.

If the gifts have not ceased why are the snake handlers of Appalachia ridiculed so much. As I recall the Apostle Paul was bitten by a snake with no ill affect.

The following presents the Scripture the referenced site uses to support their doctrine:

8. We believe that signs and wonders, as well as all the gifts of the Spirit described in the New Testament, are operative today and are designed to testify to the presence of the kingdom and to empower and edify the church to fulfill its calling and mission. John 14:12; Acts 2:14-21; 4:29-30; Romans 12:3-8; 1 Corinthians 12:7-11; 12:28-31; 14:1-33; Galatians 3:1-5.

I have not studied these Scripture exhaustively but I can say that many do not apply at all in my opinion. Others might be construed to indicate certain gifts extend beyond the Apostolic Age but I doubt it. I do commend to all the closing words of Paul in 1 Corinthians 13 which to my mind put the issue at rest!

13. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't doubt the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of people today. In fact He worked in my life to bring me to Salvation.

That being said I see no indication in Scripture that the gifts exercised by the Apostles would extend beyond the Apostolic age. Furthermore, I see no evidence in in the long history of the Church that such gifts were and are common.

I would not deny that there are cases of apparent miraculous healing but is there any evidence of anyone being raised from the dead. I know that people are brought out of cardiac arrest, I was one of those but I was not dead.

If the gifts have not ceased why are the snake handlers of Appalachia ridiculed so much. As I recall the Apostle Paul was bitten by a snake with no ill affect.

The following presents the Scripture the referenced site uses to support their doctrine:



I have not studied these Scripture exhaustively but I can say that many do not apply at all in my opinion. Others might be construed to indicate certain gifts extend beyond the Apostolic Age but I doubt it. I do commend to all the closing words of Paul in 1 Corinthians 13 which to my mind put the issue at rest!

13. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Check the theology of the most 'reputable/reknown" persons in the Modern movement, the Hagin/Copeland/Hinn/Price etc and ALL of them claim divine revelation, but ther theologies deny the nature of God, man.Sin, salvation etc!

They have heeded delusion of demonic forces!

 

[evangelist-7]

The NT apostles had a grand old time preaching the gospel ...
with God confirming what they were saying with His signs and wonders!

Not to mention that multitudes were healed, demons cast out of them, etc.

How can God really demonstrate His love and compassion TODAY without demonstrating His power?

But, men have tied His hands with their UNBELIEF.
As you know, the Lord is disgusted with UNBELIEF, and usually runs from it.

Men preferred to ignore this spiritual power because they didn't have any.
They preferred to keep their positional power in the church.

The cessationist doctrine is right from the very pits of Hell!

Because it has tied God's hands due to man's UNBELIEF.

No more healings, no more demons cast out, etc. and Satan's curses upon man are able to remain in full effect.
But, some people who don't have God's anointing (spiritual power) couldn't care less.
What's important to them is their doctrines, their reputation, their being right.

God has allowed that ... "Satan is the god/ruler of this world!" <<<<< Scripture verses gladly provided upon request.
.

 

[mont974x4]

I did study the passages of Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 4 and 1 Peter 4. I found no reason to say that these gifts and offices are no longer working in the Church.

Please note that I do not, in any way, support the false teachings of the charismatics. God is not the god of chaos. I came out of a charismatic church that taught the damnable things of the Word of Faith et al. health and wealth name it and claim it garbage. There is no Scripture to support that, holy barking, holy laughter, or physically beating people. What those things have done to people in the hours of their deepest need angers me greatly.


Please do not confuse the trash taught by the Hinn's of this world with the active working of the Spirit in and through people of faith according to what is written in Scripture.

Let's be careful to not throw the baby out with the bathwater.


Here is the text of a sermon by John Piper concerning the Gifts of the Spirit.

http://www.soundofgrace.com/piper81/031581m.htm

 

[OldRegular]

The cessationist doctrine is right from the very pits of Hell!

I suspect that most of the current Charismatic doctrine, better named "name it and claim it" or "Word of Faith" is straight from the pits of hell!

 

[Yeshua1]

I did study the passages of Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 4 and 1 Peter 4. I found no reason to say that these gifts and offices are no longer working in the Church.

Please note that I do not, in any way, support the false teachings of the charismatics. God is not the god of chaos. I came out of a charismatic church that taught the damnable things of the Word of Faith et al. health and wealth name it and claim it garbage. There is no Scripture to support that, holy barking, holy laughter, or physically beating people. What those things have done to people in the hours of their deepest need angers me greatly.


Please do not confuse the trash taught by the Hinn's of this world with the active working of the Spirit in and through people of faith according to what is written in Scripture.

Let's be careful to not throw the baby out with the bathwater.


Here is the text of a sermon by John Piper concerning the Gifts of the Spirit.

http://www.soundofgrace.com/piper81/031581m.htm

there though would be NO MORE revelatory gifts among the Church, asuch as wa sin beg churches, as we have the Bible!

No one would have the gifts personally such as faith healing/signs and wondersa s the Apostles did!

 

[OldRegular]

God has allowed that ... "Satan is the god/ruler of this world!" <<<<< Scripture verses gladly provided upon request.[/COLOR][/B]
.

That statement is contrary to Scripture. God has not abdicated His Throne regardless of what Charismatics might say!

1 Peter 2:22. Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

 

[Yeshua1]

That statement is contrary to Scripture. God has not abdicated His Throne regardless of what Charismatics might say!

1 Peter 2:22. Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

So the Bible was wrong when it said all the cattle of the earth was His, as was also all gold and silver?

And paul was wrong when he said that God bestowed upon Jesus name of "LORD", and that Jesus was King of Kings and Lord of Lords?

 

[OldRegular]

The NT apostles had a grand old time preaching the gospel ...
with God confirming what they were saying with His signs and wonders!

Not to mention that multitudes were healed, demons cast out of them, etc.

That was then, this is now!

How can God really demonstrate His love and compassion TODAY without demonstrating His power?

God demonstrates His love and compassion today by saving people. You folks want to make God a super "fetch it man" to respond to your every whim!

But, men have tied His hands with their UNBELIEF.

God the Holy Spirit overcomes unbelief in all that he brings to Salvation!

As you know, the Lord is disgusted with UNBELIEF, and usually runs from it.

Scripture shows that God is very patient with unbelief. He sometimes chastens those who sin against Him but He always forgives those who belong to Him!

Men preferred to ignore this spiritual power because they didn't have any.
They preferred to keep their positional power in the church.

When I see one of you Charismatics empty a local hospital I will repent in sack cloth and ashes!

No more healings, no more demons cast out, etc. and Satan's curses upon man are able to remain in full effect.
But, some people who don't have God's anointing (spiritual power) couldn't care less.
What's important to them is their doctrines, their reputation, their being right.

Satan has no power over the child of God!

 

[OldRegular]

God has allowed that ... "Satan is the god/ruler of this world!" <<<<< Scripture verses gladly provided upon request.[/COLOR][/B]
.

Response to evangelist-7 by OldRegular
That statement is contrary to Scripture. God has not abdicated His Throne regardless of what Charismatics might say!

1 Peter 2:22. Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

So the Bible was wrong when it said all the cattle of the earth was His, as was also all gold and silver?

And paul was wrong when he said that God bestowed upon Jesus name of "LORD", and that Jesus was King of Kings and Lord of Lords?

Your response doesn't make sense!

 

[mont974x4]

there though would be NO MORE revelatory gifts among the Church, asuch as wa sin beg churches, as we have the Bible!

No one would have the gifts personally such as faith healing/signs and wondersa s the Apostles did!

I am not arguing for extra-biblical revelation like some do. The Bible is complete, perfect, and sufficient for life and godliness. That is not what the gifts are about. They are about the Spirit working in and through His people for the edification of other people.

 

[billwald]

None of you True Believers have any need for man made health insurance of any kind, right? You all should form an Amish-Baptist Church and save all kinds of tax money.

 

[mont974x4]

What would lead you to make such a ridiculous post?

 

[The Biblicist]

I present this for those who have been silently following the threads on cessationism.
As such, none of you are expected to respond, which is A-OK.

Following are the comments of some well-known Christians from the history of the church:

Justin Martyr (a.d. 100-165) boasted to the Jewish Trypho "that the prophetic gifts remain with us"
(Dialogue with Trypho, 82).

Irenaeus (a.d. 120-200) also bears witness to the presence of the gifts of the Spirit. He writes:
• "We have heard of many of the brethren who have foreknowledge of the future, visions, and prophetic utterances; others, by laying-on of hands, heal the sick and restore them to health"
(Against Heresies, 2:32,4).
• "We hear of many members of the church who have prophetic gifts, and, by the Spirit speak with all kinds of tongues, and bring men's secret thoughts to light for their own good, and expound the mysteries of God"
(Against Heresies, 5:6,1).
• "It is impossible to enumerate the charisms which throughout the world the church has received from God"
(Against Heresies, 2:32,4).

Eusebius himself concludes that the charismata were all still in operation down to the time in which Irenaeus lived (Ecclesiastical History, 5:7,6).

Apollinarius is quoted by Eusebius as saying that "the prophetic gifts must continue in the church until the final coming, as the apostle insists" (EH, 5:16,7).

Epiphanius, perhaps the most vocal opponent of the Montanists, did not attack them because they practiced the gifts of the Spirit. Indeed, he declared that "the charism [of prophecy] is not inoperative in the church. Quite the opposite. . . . The holy church of God welcomes the same [charisms] as the Montanists, but ours are real charisms, authenticated for the church by the Holy Spirit" (Panarion, 48).

Augustine (354-430), early on espoused cessationism. However, in his later writings he retracted his denial of the ongoing reality of the miraculous and carefully documented no fewer than 70 instances of divine healing in his own diocese during a two-year span (see his City of God, Book XXII, chps. 8-10).
See especially the articles by Richard Riss,
"Tongues and Other Miraculous Gifts in the Second Through Nineteenth Centuries," Basileia, 1985.

Charles Spurgeon is a case in point. Read carefully the following account taken from his autobiography:
“A city missionary, when going his rounds, met with a certain man, and seeing that he was reading one of my sermons, he asked the question, ‘Do you know Mr. Spurgeon?’ ‘Yes,’ replied the man, ‘I have every reason to know him, I have been to hear him; and, under his preaching, by God’s grace I have become a new creature in Christ Jesus. Shall I tell you how it happened? I went to the Music Hall, and took my seat in the middle of the place; Mr. Spurgeon looked at me as if he knew me, and in his sermon he pointed to me, and told the congregation that I was a shoemaker, and that I kept my shop open on Sundays; and I did, sir. I should not have minded that; but he also said that I took ninepence the Sunday before, and that there was fourpence profit out of it. I did take ninepence that day, and fourpence was just the profit; but how he should know that, I could not tell. Then it struck me that it was God who had spoken to my soul though him, so I shut up my shop the next Sunday. At first, I was afraid to go again to hear him, lest he should tell the people more about me; but afterwards I went, and the Lord met with me, and saved my soul.’” Spurgeon then adds this comment:
“I could tell as many as a dozen similar cases in which I pointed at somebody in the hall without having the slightest knowledge of the person, or any idea that what I said was right, except that I believed I was moved by the Spirit to say it; and so striking has been my description, that the persons have gone away, and said to their friends, ‘Come, see a man that told me all things that ever I did; beyond a doubt, he must have been sent of God to my soul, or else he could not have described me so exactly.’ And not only so, but I have known many instances in which the thoughts of men have been revealed from the pulpit. I have sometimes seen persons nudge their neighbours with their elbow, because they had got a smart hit, and they have been heard to say, when they were going out, ‘The preacher told us just what we said to one another when we went in at the door’”
(The Autobiography of Charles H. Spurgeon, [Curts & Jennings, 1899], Vol. II, pp. 226-227).

Taken from ... http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/gifts-in-church-history/
.

Of course God can and does heal and moves mountains for his people both then and today.

However, we are not talking about answered prayer but about sign gifts. We are not talking about asking God to heal someone but about those who claim to have the gift of healing, etc.

The Ante-Nicene, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers are but the selected and preserved writings by harlot Rome that gives a record of her history of apostasy. Every form of confusion and false doctrine can be found in those records. If one accepts the Post-Nicene Fathers, then must accept the Nicene Fathers and if they accept the Nicene they must accept the Ante-Nicene because they are inseparably linked to each other and build one upon the other. If you are reasonable and rational to accept them is to accept the claims and doctrine of Rome.

In an earlier post I pointed out that the modern day Charistmatic/Pentecostal movemen is nothing more than an extension of Roman Catholicism and is embraced by Rome.

 

[Yeshua1]

I am not arguing for extra-biblical revelation like some do. The Bible is complete, perfect, and sufficient for life and godliness. That is not what the gifts are about. They are about the Spirit working in and through His people for the edification of other people.

Understand where you are coming from in this, but you have to realise that modern charasmatics go far beyond what we Baptists do in regards to the Gifts, as we still hold to God doing healings as he so pleases, and that he has still gifted some to be teachers/pastors, that we have gifts of helps/giving/administarting etc, but they also bring in sign gifts, modern day Apostles/prophets, and all sorts of heretical doctrines!