A little sampling of church history is in order

[Yeshua1]

It absolutely does. Tell me what you think Paul meant.


Not just the Sacraments by the way. Sacraments are only one way obtaining Grace. Let me ask you when you read the bible does God give you Grace? When you pray does God give you Grace? When you obey God does God give you Grace? And to do any of theses things Does God give you Grace? I would say yes in all cases as does the Catholic Church. Catholics even believe that God gives Grace to protestants when they do these things. Catholics even believe that God gives his Grace when a protestant baptizes someone eventhough the protestant doesn't think of baptism as a sacrament.

We hold that doing praying/bible studying/good works etc are important in maturing us more into the image of Christ, but that is sauntification, NOTHING to do with us being justified/saved by God! You hold to the grace of God in the sacraments as the measn by which God gets us to the point of he can freely forgive/justify us, while we see the grace FULLY in the Cross of Christ, and that we are freely justifed/saved by Jesus, NO extra Grace from sacraments necessary!

Let me ask you a question. Are you cooperating with God by believing in his Son when Jesus says to believe in him? Are you cooperating when you come to faith and become baptized as a witness to others? I believe the answer to both these questions is yes. What happens if Jesus says to believe in him and you refuse to cooperate with him and decide not to believe? What then? What about if later on after believing in him you say I refuse to abide in you Jesus I will go living as I did before coming to know you and will never, ever come back because this is just rubbish? And then go about sinning as much as you can. What then?

I am a calvinist christian, so my salvation is the work of god on my behalf, so the ONLY thing required by God to justify me and freely save me is that I must receive Christ by faith, and God provided the means to me by His Grace to be able to do such!

Once justiifed, still can chose to disobey God, to not act as becoming my standing in Christ, but that will bring Chaistisment from god, and interfere with my fellowship and maturation process, but NOT my relationship as saved by jesus death upon the cross!

But let me say this. I am personally assured that if I die this very minute I will go to be with God because I have remained in faith. I will not speak to tomorrow because it is not yet. But to say that if I continue to remain in faith with God I will go to heaven.

i am persuaded by the scriptures that the father AND Jesus hold me, and am sealed by the Sprit, and the triune God will NEVER let me go!

 

[evangelist-7]

Hey, almost forgot, I guess this can also be considered as part of church history ... we're still in the church age, right?

Taken from my spiritual testimony, which some of you have read ...

Months before first going to Bulgaria: I woke up with a major “muscle pull” in my back (it must have been the way I slept). During many years of playing basketball and tennis, I had several of these types of injuries, and I knew this one would
take about 10 days to heal. At 9 am, an elderly lady from our church phoned and asked me how I was doing. I told her that
I was in pain and why. She said, “No problem!”, and told me to put my right hand where the pain was and we would pray
in agreement about it, and the Lord would take care of it. So, we prayed in faith “in the name of Jesus”, and instantly
the pain was gone! For the next several months, I had a very slight pain in that area of my back. I kept saying to people:
“Isn’t it obvious that God wants me to remember His great healing power, and also when and how He healed me!”
.

 

[evangelist-7]

No one's disputing what's obvious ... there have been many frauds on TV, and off.
And many people love to use this as an excuse to flaunt their cessationism.

But, then there are the legitimate anointed ones who quietly do God's work.
These have "the baptism with the Holy Spirit" anointing of strong faith, healing, miracles, etc.
These are among the ones who quietly prove that man's spiritual gifts have not ceased.
I.E. I'm not talking about God performing miracles on His own (without man's involvement).

As always, spiritual truth must come through spiritual revelation from the Lord.
Examples: belief in Jesus for salvation, belief in the Trinity, belief that cessationism is error, etc.

Remember, God stays way from UNBELIEF ... but God loves to respond to STRONG BELIEF.

As stated above, this STRONG BELIEF comes via spiritual revelation.
So, we can't be too critical of those who don't have it.
.

 

[Jope]

Where does it ever say in scriptures that the Gentiles require a sign to believe?

It says that the Jews do (1Cor 1:22). What about the Gentiles though?

"...the Jews require a sign..." (1Cor 1:22).​

 

[evangelist-7]

Where does it ever say in scriptures that the Gentiles require a sign to believe?
It says that the Jews do (1Cor 1:22). What about the Gentiles though?

"...the Jews require a sign...​

" (1Cor 1:22).​

I don't know, but does it really matter?
Peter, Paul, Stephen, etc. all were used to perform S/W/M.
And, guess what, they were all led by the Holy Spirit.
.

 

[ktn4eg]

Forgive me for butting in, but way back, some couple dozen threads previous to this one (or at least it SEEMS that far back to me anyway!), someone (don't recall who is was by now) raised the point that, if a person truly possessed the "sign gift" of so-called DIVINE healing, why then does that individual not just go into, say, the nearest burn clinic and, presto!!, completely heal all of the patients therein, led me to ponder over this:

Remember good, ole, Oral Roberts?

Did he NOT claim to possess the so-called "Gift" of DIVINE healing? (Everybody nod their heads up-and-down a couple of times!!)

IF..... IF.....he TRULY DID possess that so-called "Gift" of DIVINE healing.....Why, O why did O. R. subsequently go public and tell us gullible, naieve, take-everything-O. R.-says-as-"Gospel-Truth," simpletons-that-obviously-we-are, that God---all of the sudden, and, obviously, without any prior warning at all, COMMAND Oral to beg for money from "his loyal followers" to erect what is now standing in Tulsa, OK, the "Oral Roberts Memorial Medical Center"??!!??

"Book, Chapter, and Verse" for that, please!!!! :thumbs: :tear: :tear: :tonofbricks:

 

[Jope]

I don't know, but does it really matter?
Peter, Paul, Stephen, etc. all were used to perform S/W/M.
And, guess what, they were all led by the Holy Spirit.
.

We are in a time where Israel is blinded (Rom. 11:7).

There is coming a day when they won't be blinded anymore (Rom. 11:25) and the Church, Christ's Body (predominantly Gentile) will be raptured (Rev. 3:10, 1Cor. 15:52).

This is when the sign gifts will be up and going again (Micah 7:15, Rev. 11:1-14).

 

[Thinkingstuff]

i am persuaded by the scriptures that the father AND Jesus hold me, and am sealed by the Sprit, and the triune God will NEVER let me go!

And I am persuaded that if I remain in him he will remain in me and the Trinity will never let me go!

 

[The Biblicist]

I don't know, but does it really matter?
Peter, Paul, Stephen, etc. all were used to perform S/W/M.
And, guess what, they were all led by the Holy Spirit.
.

This is your typical response to all scriptures that do not harmonize with your interpretations and practices. Why not use a knife and cut out all those pesky scriptures that cause you problems?

 

[Yeshua1]

And I am persuaded that if I remain in him he will remain in me and the Trinity will never let me go!

So were you in the final sense saved by Will of God, or by your own will and efforts?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

So were you in the final sense saved by Will of God, or by your own will and efforts?

As long as I remain in him. What does Jesus say in John 15 and 16?

I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned

and the fire in this context is in the context of how hell is spoken of in the scriptures. Follow up this when Jesus concludes this discourse on being hated in the world in chapter 16 saying

“I have said all these things to you to keep you from falling away. "

 

[The Biblicist]

As long as I remain in him. What does Jesus say in John 15 and 16? and the fire in this context is in the context of how hell is spoken of in the scriptures. Follow up this when Jesus concludes this discourse on being hated in the world in chapter 16 saying

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

This is said in the context of "fruit" first introduced at the beginning of the chapter. He said that their fruit would "remain" because he ordained it?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

This is said in the context of "fruit" first introduced at the beginning of the chapter. He said that their fruit would "remain" because he ordained it?

two different subjects 1) being elected (ie I have chosen you) and 2) remaining in him. The passage speaks for itself. Go back to the 1st verse and see the context of the discourse an apeal to remain in him and the latter verse in 16 say that they would not fall away.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Hey, almost forgot, I guess this can also be considered as part of church history ... we're still in the church age, right?

Taken from my spiritual testimony, which some of you have read ...

Months before first going to Bulgaria: I woke up with a major “muscle pull” in my back (it must have been the way I slept). During many years of playing basketball and tennis, I had several of these types of injuries, and I knew this one would
take about 10 days to heal. At 9 am, an elderly lady from our church phoned and asked me how I was doing. I told her that
I was in pain and why. She said, “No problem!”, and told me to put my right hand where the pain was and we would pray
in agreement about it, and the Lord would take care of it. So, we prayed in faith “in the name of Jesus”, and instantly
the pain was gone! For the next several months, I had a very slight pain in that area of my back. I kept saying to people:
“Isn’t it obvious that God wants me to remember His great healing power, and also when and how He healed me!”
.

Better than Doans Pills Id imagine...:laugh:

 

[evangelist-7]

Where does it ever say in scriptures that the Gentiles require a sign to believe?
It says that the Jews do (1Cor 1:22). What about the Gentiles though

Greetings, Jope

You seem to be a more gentle fellow than what I'm used to here.
Paul used to ask, "Why do you hate me when I tell you the truth?"

IMO, this passage indicates that signs are to help everyone to believe, which should be more than obvious.

John 20:
30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples,
which are not written in this book;
31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ,
the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
.

 

[The Biblicist]

two different subjects 1) being elected (ie I have chosen you) and 2) remaining in him. The passage speaks for itself. Go back to the 1st verse and see the context of the discourse an apeal to remain in him and the latter verse in 16 say that they would not fall away.

You simply ignored what the text said. The "fruit" is not election as this fruit they "bring forth" and it is fruit brought forth that Christ has ordained to "remain." The point is simple. True believers are chosen by Christ (election) and true believers bring forth fruit and that fruit remains. Thus true believers are not broken off due to lack of fruit because the fruit of true believers always remains because God is the one producing it through them as God ordained it to "remain." Hence, true believer "abide" as their fruit "remains."

 

[evangelist-7]

A testimony from another website follows.
AWESOME! ... but then our God is an AWESOME God!

I had been receiving a gospel witness for a while, I BELIEVED it, I LOVED it, but I did not believe in the miracles that accompanied the witness.

Many times I read the scripture "Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday and today and forever" oh I used to stare at that scripture, I tried so hard to understand what it could mean.

After attending a "revival" meeting I read that gospel magazine witness and read the wonderful story of a man in Poncé Puerto Rica he was a hopeless cripple, paralysed from the waist down, hadn't stood or walked for 16 years.

He was reduced to begging. He began to hear stories of miracles happening at a gospel campaign in his city, after much begging his family they brought him and sat him on the grounds propped up back to back with a blind woman.

The message that night was the healing of the paralysed man in the bible who had been brought to Jesus.

After the message prayer was offered for people to be saved, he did pray and was saved. Then prayer was offered for the healing of the sick just as in bible days. Now the woman who he was propped up against received her sight and let out a shriek and leapt to her feet.

Poor Juan Santos flopped on his back.

There he struggled, crying out, he tried to lift himself to his elbows but kept falling back, struggling, crying, desperate.
A christian policeman who knew Juan saw him and had pity for him and reached down and grabbed him by his shoulders saying "the Lord heals you brother Juan, the Lord heals you now".
Juan Santos stood on his feet, his legs went straight and he received strength.
He said "I felt like I was 10ft tall swaying in the breeze."

There were so many healed that it was 3 days before Juan got to testify to his healing. He spent the rest of his life going from village to village telling his story and it was him telling this story in the magazine I was reading, he finished his story with the words Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Oh I understood it...this was Jesus in the bible, healing and saving people. Then it's true, it's ALL true. that is when God opened my understanding to the way to be saved.

I have personally witnessed many miracles since that day. And received miracles, and prayed for and seen miracles done in Jesu's name.

(The writer) rigidly believes the bible, there is so much going on which is not bible, but if it IS bible and it is done along bible lines then it is worthy to be believed.
.

 

[The Biblicist]

A testimony from another website follows.
AWESOME! ... but then our God is an AWESOME God!

I had been receiving a gospel witness for a while, I BELIEVED it, I LOVED it, but I did not believe in the miracles that accompanied the witness.

Let's suppose MSW are going on today. You admit that counterfit MSW are also going on today (Mt. 24:24; 2 Thes. 2:9). What would be your test that would distinguish between the two?

 

[Yeshua1]

A testimony from another website follows.
AWESOME! ... but then our God is an AWESOME God!

I had been receiving a gospel witness for a while, I BELIEVED it, I LOVED it, but I did not believe in the miracles that accompanied the witness.

Many times I read the scripture "Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday and today and forever" oh I used to stare at that scripture, I tried so hard to understand what it could mean.

After attending a "revival" meeting I read that gospel magazine witness and read the wonderful story of a man in Poncé Puerto Rica he was a hopeless cripple, paralysed from the waist down, hadn't stood or walked for 16 years.

He was reduced to begging. He began to hear stories of miracles happening at a gospel campaign in his city, after much begging his family they brought him and sat him on the grounds propped up back to back with a blind woman.

The message that night was the healing of the paralysed man in the bible who had been brought to Jesus.

After the message prayer was offered for people to be saved, he did pray and was saved. Then prayer was offered for the healing of the sick just as in bible days. Now the woman who he was propped up against received her sight and let out a shriek and leapt to her feet.

Poor Juan Santos flopped on his back.

There he struggled, crying out, he tried to lift himself to his elbows but kept falling back, struggling, crying, desperate.
A christian policeman who knew Juan saw him and had pity for him and reached down and grabbed him by his shoulders saying "the Lord heals you brother Juan, the Lord heals you now".
Juan Santos stood on his feet, his legs went straight and he received strength.
He said "I felt like I was 10ft tall swaying in the breeze."

There were so many healed that it was 3 days before Juan got to testify to his healing. He spent the rest of his life going from village to village telling his story and it was him telling this story in the magazine I was reading, he finished his story with the words Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Oh I understood it...this was Jesus in the bible, healing and saving people. Then it's true, it's ALL true. that is when God opened my understanding to the way to be saved.

I have personally witnessed many miracles since that day. And received miracles, and prayed for and seen miracles done in Jesu's name.

(The writer) rigidly believes the bible, there is so much going on which is not bible, but if it IS bible and it is done along bible lines then it is worthy to be believed.
.

How do you know what is and is not of God? Does the Spirit testify to you what is of Him?

Again, are those such as hagin/Copeland/Hinn etc from God or not?