A Message for Pretribbers

[RightFromWrong]

Oldreagular wrote...
Unfortunately in the last 30+ years there has been more trash than truth written about the return of Jesus Christ beginning with The Late Great Planet Earth and continuing through the Left Behind series.

Well thats your opinion ! Very few Baptist hold to your veiw, than ones that hold to a Rapture veiw. Especially a rapture that takes place before the 7 year Tribulation

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by RightFromWrong:
Well thats your opinion ! Very few Baptist hold to your veiw, than ones that hold to a Rapture veiw. Especially a rapture that takes place before the 7 year Tribulation

It doesn't seem to be a matter of opinion. Rather, it appears to be a matter of observation. "The Late Great Planet Earth" is copious with "predictions" that turned out to be false. In fact, just about everything that came from the mouth of Hal Lindsay and similar lindsay-ites in the last 30 or so years has been inaccurate or just plain false. So OR is correct by observing that in the last 30+ years there has been more trash than truth written about the second coming.

I think most people are in agreement that the "Left Behind" series is poor doctrine (not a surprise, since it was written as a work of fiction, not as a work of scriptural commentary). Further, as sci-fi writing, it is adequatre at best. I'm really at a loss why so many got caught up in lahayemania.

 

[RightFromWrong]

Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Luke 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luke 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luke 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
...
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

1 Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

2 Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2 Pet 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

2 Pet 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[Johnv]

How do any of those verse refute the fact that in the last 30+ years there has been more trash than truth written about the second coming?

 

[RightFromWrong]

That was the person who said the Bible has nothing to say about the rapture.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RightFromWrong:
Well thats your opinion ! Very few Baptist hold to your veiw, than ones that hold to a Rapture veiw. Especially a rapture that takes place before the 7 year Tribulation

It doesn't seem to be a matter of opinion. Rather, it appears to be a matter of observation. "The Late Great Planet Earth" is copious with "predictions" that turned out to be false. In fact, just about everything that came from the mouth of Hal Lindsay and similar lindsay-ites in the last 30 or so years has been inaccurate or just plain false. So OR is correct by observing that in the last 30+ years there has been more trash than truth written about the second coming.

I think most people are in agreement that the "Left Behind" series is poor doctrine (not a surprise, since it was written as a work of fiction, not as a work of scriptural commentary). Further, as sci-fi writing, it is adequatre at best. I'm really at a loss why so many got caught up in lahayemania. </font>[/QUOTE]Actually the pretribbers should be most concerned about the trash being written by their fellow pretribbers. The Left Behind series is a perfact example.

I am certain there are dispensational commentaries on Revelation with which I would heartedly disagree but at least those are serious attempts to discuss the Book of Revelation and End Time events. I think there is something unseemly about a Christian commercializing something as serious as the Second Coming which LeHaye has done in the Left Behind series..

 

[Paul33]

You guys don't get it. LeHaye doesn't believe what he is writing is fiction. Yes, it is fiction, but he actually believes its going to happen along the lines of a pre-trib dispensational scheme.

Therefore, the pre-trib crowd thinks LeHaye is a hero for getting their viewpoint out in the public square.

I just wish it was a post-trib, historic premillenial scheme!

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Paul33:
You guys don't get it. LeHaye doesn't believe what he is writing is fiction. Yes, it is fiction, but he actually believes its going to happen along the lines of a pre-trib dispensational scheme.

Therefore, the pre-trib crowd thinks LeHaye is a hero for getting their viewpoint out in the public square.

I object. I haven't decided yet, but I am possibly pre-trib or mid-trib. I have not read LeHaye's books, will not ever read them, and I don't know where the evidence is that he's considered a "hero."

I know lots of people read the books and liked them (personally, I don't want someone's interpretation of the endtimes written out as a story). So what?

I don't think a lot of people will be criticizing him because we have better things to do. It's not wrong for him to write the books, is it?

I don't get why there is so much pre-trib bashing going on at the BB. It seems weird to me. Where the bashings of postrib and amil views?

 

[Ed Edwards]

A message for pretrib bashers from the
Living God via the Apostle Paul:

Rom 8:31-33 (KJV1611 Edition):

What shall wee then say to these things? If God
be for vs, who can bee against vs?
32 He that spared not his owne son,
but deliuered him vp for vs all: how shall
hee not with him also freely giue vs all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the
charge of Gods elect? It is God that iustifieth:

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Marcia:
I don't get why there is so much pre-trib bashing going on at the BB. It seems weird to me. Where the bashings of postrib and amil views?

Perhaps it is because the historic premillennial or amillennial viewpoints are more consistent with the teaching of Scripture than dispensationalism.

 

[Frogman]

Or perhaps this is the great falling away that shall come, signifying to us the time is upon us

Old Regular,
Would you start a thread on the Historic Pre-Mil position?

Do you know anything of the Gospel mil position?

Bro. Dallas

 

[Plain Old Bill]

I find the a-mill and post mill positions are more in line with Wesleyan thought and theology,that would be Methodists and Nazarenes.Another view these people seem to reject is OSAS which again goes back to Wesleyan theology.At least those are the things I learned from the McCkinnley Hill Free Mothodist church as a boy.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Or perhaps this is the great falling away that shall come, signifying to us the time is upon us

Old Regular,
Would you start a thread on the Historic Pre-Mil position?

Do you know anything of the Gospel mil position?

Bro. Dallas

I am not an adherent of the Historic Premillennial viewpoint so I suggest some one else, perhaps Paul33.

I always thought that the Amillennial viewpoint was the Biblical position, not sure what you mean by the "Gospel mil position".

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
I find the a-mill and post mill positions are more in line with Wesleyan thought and theology,that would be Methodists and Nazarenes.Another view these people seem to reject is OSAS which again goes back to Wesleyan theology.At least those are the things I learned from the McCkinnley Hill Free Mothodist church as a boy.

Actually if you read pre 20th History of the Baptists you will find that they were predominately Amillennial or Postmillennial.

When the original charter of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary was adopted in 1858, it contained the following statement which continues as a part of the “fundamental laws.” Every professor of the institution shall be a member of a regular Baptist church; and all persons accepting professorships in this seminary shall be considered, by such acceptance, as engaging to teach in accordance with, and not contrary to, the Abstract of Principles hereinafter laid down, a departure from which principles on his part shall be considered grounds for his resignation or removal by the Trustees, to wit:

[Articles 1-18 deleted]

XIX. The Resurrection
The bodies of men after death return to dust, but their spirits return immediately to God—the righteous to rest with Him; the wicked, to be reserved under darkness to the judgment. At the last day, the bodies of all the dead, both just and unjust, will be raised.

XX. The Judgment
God hath appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world by Jesus Christ, when every one shall receive according to his deeds; the wicked shall go into everlasting punishment; the righteous, into everlasting life.

The Abstract of principles is still in effect at Southern seminary.

The Second London Confession [1677]

Chapter XXXI. Of the State of Man after Death and of the Resurrection of the Dead [page 293, Baptist Confessions of Faith by Lumpkin]

“1. The Bodies of Men after Death return to dust and see corruption; but their souls [which neither die nor sleep] having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them; the Souls of the righteous then being made perfect in holiness, are received into Paradise where they are with Christ, and behold the face of God in light and glory; waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked, are cast into hell; where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day; besides these two places for Souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.

2. At the last day such of the Saints as are found alive shall not sleep but shall be changed; and all the dead shall be raised up with the self same bodies, and none other; although with different qualities, which shall be reunited with their Souls again forever.

3. The bodies of the unjust shall by the power of Christ be raised to dishonour; the bodies of the just by His Spirit unto honour, and be made conformable to His own glorious body.”

Chapter XXXII. Of the Last Judgment [page 294]

“1. God hath appointed a Day wherein He will judge the world in Righteousness, by Jesus Christ; to Whom all power and judgment is given of the Father; in which Day not only the Apostate Angels shall be judged; but likewise all persons that have lived upon the Earth, shall appear before the tribunal of Christ; to give an account of their thoughts, Words, and Deeds, and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.

2. The end of Gods appointing this Day is for the manifestation of the glory of His Mercy, in the Eternal Salvation of the Elect, and of His Justice in the Eternal damnation of the Reprobate who are wicked and disobedient; for then shall the Righteous go into everlasting life, and receive the fullness of Joy, and Glory, with everlasting reward in the presence of the Lord; but the wicked who know not God, and obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into Eternal torments, and punished with everlasting destruction, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.

3. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a Day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin and for greater consolation of the godly, in their adversity; so will he have that day unknown to Men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour, the Lord will come; and may ever be prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus, Come quickly, Amen.”


The New Hampshire Confession [1833]

Article XVIII. Of the World to Come

“We believe that the end of this world is approaching: that at the last day, Christ will descend from heaven, and raise the dead from the grave to final retribution; that a solemn separation will then take place; that the wicked will be adjudged to endless punishment and the righteous to endless joy; and that this judgment will fix forever the final state of men in heaven or hell, on principles of righteousness.”

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Hello everyone! Let you know, I am very busy this weekend. I might not make a post till Sunday night or Monday. Have a nice weekend!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[ituttut]

QUOTE]Originally posted by James_Newman:
The unconditional pre-trib rapture as it is commonly taught is incorrect. Many Christians, dare I say most, may indeed find themselves in the tribulation. But we do have scripture on which to base our hope of an escape.

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. [/QUOTE]

Hello James, one that is in the Body of Christ. This turned out to be much longer than intended, but this will pretty well layout for dissection, and probably some ridicule, which is to be expected.

Good to see one that is able to divide then pull together, removing contradictions. Fully agree with your assessment, but conclusions probably formed through different channels.

The following is what I currently cling to, for some of the other positions taken since the book was written come up short on this particular subject. I am claiming nothing new here, but have not seen it lain out as such. Our view/s in this matter cannot affect our salvation for Revelation is not for we in the Body of Christ. It is for our information, and believing His Word is truth, affirms He will keep His promise with those who made covenant with Him (for He wished it), as well as showing the demise of Satan and those that are his. He gives us information as we go into eternity. It is also a warning to the lost of what will happen, they having no excuse, and those that wind up in the Time of Jacobs Trouble to be saved. They also have no excuse.

God had secrets in His mysteries that He kept hidden from the beginning. The gospel given to Paul was never revealed until after Damascus Road, and John received new Revelation on the Isle of Patmos from God that had been kept hidden since from the beginning. The secret revealed to Paul is for all today. The secret revealed to John is for all, but is given and directed to His people, as the “catching up to Christ in the air”, ended the filling of the Body of Christ, His inheritance.

My understanding: In Revelation 1, verse 3 we see to whom this revelation is directed. John here is still preaching the “kingdom is at hand”. Tribulation must come before the Kingdom, and Rapture must come before the Tribulation. Revelation 1:19 clues us in on how to interpret this book (expect the intelligentsia, the translators ‘linguists’ to pounce on this). We are to know what John had seen, and experienced in prophecy. Then what is current, and on to what was prophesied in the Old Testament, and new prophecies as prophecy is of His people (Daniel 9:24). We today, Gentile or those from the seed of Jacob, cannot qualify, and are in danger if we say we are connected to God’s people then, or in the future. We are in Christ Jesus and His kingdom, which is in the kingdom to come.

We know when we see ”He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches”; this is directed to His nation. Isaiah 51:4; Hosea 5:1; Joel 1:2; Matthew 10: 5, and 27. All these words are spoken and intended only for His nation, those of the seed of the 12 tribes produced by Jacob. And when we finally come to this knowledge, and the understanding that Jesus did not come for anyone other than “His own people”, we can then proceed to apply this knowledge to all parts of the Bible, including Revelation.

Today God is not on speaking terms with His own people, other than through the bible, along with we heathen. I believe the part we must concentrate on is what Christ Jesus from heaven reveals to us. The only place we can get information on salvation today is from Paul, as Christ revealed Paul’s gospel to him, as Peter affirms.

We will not find the Christian in the Body of Christ referenced in the seven churches, other than many Christians attend those churches during the years beginning with the third church. But many Christians did not attend the Papal churches. So why do these churches then not pertain to us if we are in them? Because we will not be here, and those left are all the seven churches as they enter into the tribulation period. We are long gone when this happens.

What we must notice is that some that go into tribulation in these churches, or join afterwards, will be saved, but they must do as all did before them (except the Christians), and that is they must have works – every last one of them for each church is shown to require works, even those two that do not have to repent.

The church of Ephesus is referenced in Hosea 2:7; 9:10. These are those that hold to the gospel while Jesus was on earth.

The second church Smyrna is those that hold to faith of the Pentecostal church. We see this is right after the resurrection, in verse 8.

The Pergamos church is the beginning of the Papal church.

The Thyatira church is the Roman Catholic church.

The fifth church Sardis is the Greek church, dividing the Catholic church.

The church in Philadelphia is the Protestant churches breaking away from the Catholic church.

The last church of the Laodiceans are all of the above as they come together in iniquity probably right before the rapture. Those Christians that were within, and raptured may not be as many as we think as iniquity is now running rapidly. We can see this happening before our very eyes. And we have men of all churches desperately looking for one man to unify all churches, not just Christian churches, to bring peace to this world.

Any that take the Baptist Standard (Baptist General Convention of Texas), can see ex-President of the USofA Jimmy Carter proposing such a thing. It can be found on page 10 of the August 8, 1005 issue as reported by Greg Warner, Associated Baptist Press on happenings at the Baptist Centenary Congress held in Birmingham, England. He does not say One Man, but One Voice of all. In two paragraphs he incorporates that One Voice that includes all religions?? I don’t know if he realizes what he is advocating or not, and the sad part, I don’t know if any Baptist see’s a problem developing within our denomination, on this particular issue.

No man will ever bring peace to this world. We will have peace when Christ Jesus comes to this earth, but the churches, and the world will accept one man whom they believe will bring peace and order.

Our Bodily resurrection draws nearer, as so many within and without Christian churches advocate, and are beating drums for ecumenical worship to find that one man, whom they will then believe is God. Christian faith, ituttut.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

itutitti,

Excuse me,

Please can you prove to us, how can you be sure what year of the seven churches as it is so called, 'Church Age'. How can you prove to us that the seventh church is the last one? That teaching is come from C.I. Scofield. I disagree with his teaching. Even, Late Dr. John R. Rice disagreed with Scofield's teaching of 'Seven Church Age'.

When you read Revelation chapter 2 to chapter 3. You will easy find them mentioned, that Churches did face trials, tribulations, and persecutions. There is none verse with the promise that the seven churches will be escape from the coming tribulation.

All of the seven churches were existed during John's time. Christ already know their characters, works, spiritual. These are speak of the local churches. But these are apply to us of all churches throughout all ages till the end of the age at Christ's coming.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Plain Old Bill]

It is also my understanding that the church was pre-trip pre-mil until the third or beginning of the fourth century.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
It is also my understanding that the church was pre-trip pre-mil until the third or beginning of the fourth century.

The earty Church was apparently predominately premillennial. There is no evidence it was pretribulational or God would not have given John the Revelation for the comfort of the early Church and for the Church of all time.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
It is also my understanding that the church was pre-trip pre-mil until the third or beginning of the fourth century.

The earty Church was apparently predominately premillennial. There is no evidence it was pretribulational or God would not have given John the Revelation for the comfort of the early Church and for the Church of all time. </font>[/QUOTE]Old Regular, what is your interpretation of the "he" in 2 Thess 2.7?

For the hidden power of lawlessness is already at work. However, the one who holds him back will do so until he is taken out of the way,