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A-millennialism still reigns supreme -
- Thread starter trailblazer
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The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, The calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; Their young ones shall lie down together; And the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall put his hand in the vipers den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain. For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the seas.
Is. 11: 6-9
Is. 11: 6-9
Daniel David
New Member
The only time amillenialism reigned was during the dark ages. When the common man had the bible in their hands, premillenialism reigned, like it does now.
Daniel David
New Member
Watchman, don't waste your time. I have used that verse and countless others to get amills out of their unbelief, but alas, they would rather believe a lie.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Amen, Brother Daniel David - Preach it!
trailblazer
New Member
[ February 12, 2005, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: trailblazer ]
trailblazer
New Member
Using the words of Dr. Bob; “Building doctrinal support by appealing to a simile like a house built on sand” I thought it appropriate to show just how important it is to ensure that we handle God’s Word very, very carefully when interpreting the symbolism of certain books that are so often used by many on this board without due consideration of OT fulfillment in the NT or of NT future fulfillment in the Apocalyptic book of Revelation.
Christ used similarities for a reason and we are too – provided the context calls for it and it does not violate the meaning of the text nor the authors intent. So, ridicule and unscrupulous omissions of “On that day,” or “So will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed” are used by some, they merely bounce off when they are inexcusably not used and other words are used and distorted instead.
Below are classic examples of how the utmost care needs to be used where the prophets are speaking in highly symbolic language. No Christian with any degree of honesty should be taking a verse like Isaiah 2:19 and conclude that people will be literally going into the “holes of the rocks and into the caves (dens) of the earth!”
Are we really supposed to be taking Isaiah 2:19 and the following verses literally also? Surely not!
”Now it shall come to pass in the latter days That the mountain of the Lord's house Shall be established on the top of the mountains, And shall be exalted above the hills; And all nations shall flow to it. Many people shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He shall judge between the nations, and rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.
(Is.2:2-5)
”And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" (Rev. 6:15-17)
“Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place. In the wrath of the Lord of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger.” (Is. 13:13)
"The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain," Says the Lord. (Is. 65:25)
“The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young ones shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall put his hand in the viper’s den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain. For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the seas.” (Is. 11: 6-9)
“…you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Matthew 19:28)
No, it is clear that, for any reasonable and meaningful discussion there has to be more honesty and a sincere attempt to arrive at what God intended these verse to mean and to not use them as mere ping-pong balls, which dishonor the Word of God.
Therefore, I am posting a small portion of an article on how to go about interpreting scripture but primarily, prophetic and symbolic scripture. It does not go into a verse-by-verse and biased interpretation nor does it present a particular doctrinal view. It is from an unknown source and is not copyrighted.
It was highly instructional and seemed to so relevant to the subject of prophetic interpretation of books like Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, and Revelation that anyone holding any view of the end times would benefit greatly from reading it in its entirety which is too long to post here. The bold highlighted areas of special interest are mine.
The entire paper can be read at: http://www.angelfire.com/md/mdmorrison/PROPHECY.html
“Principles of Interpreting Prophecy”
“This paper presents a starting framework for a consistent approach to understanding and explaining the Bible's predictive messages. It does not attempt to discern all prophetic truths -- it focuses on questions we need to consider before we make prophetic conclusions” (the authors footnote stating the purpose of the paper)
(sections 1-6 edited out)
7. Take into account the type of literature that prophecy is.
· Prophecy is not always written in the same way as history, stories, instructions, etc. are, just as our magazine articles today are generally not written in the same way as textbooks, legal opinions or situation comedies.
Prophecy is often poetic, and ancient poetry, like modern poetry, often uses words in a metaphorical or symbolic sense more often than prose does (e.g., Psalm 23). Hosea 12:10 says some of the prophecies were given as parables. Some passages that described events of the Messiah's first coming were given in poetic language; these illustrate how poetic prophecies may use imaginative language.
· Apocalyptic literature (Daniel, Zechariah, Revelation, etc.) in particular is largely built on types and symbols. The symbols may allude to previous biblical events or prophecies, or may allude to non-biblical beliefs of that time. The identification of these symbols, especially non-biblical ones, may be difficult and speculative. It is best to stick to symbols that the Bible clearly interprets for us.
· Typology, symbolism and allegory are important in prophecy, but they can be especially problematic. The Qumran writers, for example, used innovative typology (the Pesher method) to find contemporary events in Scripture and to prove that the end was near.
Typology can be supportive of other scriptures, but it cannot be trusted to stand as primary proof of any point. Other scriptures must serve as a control on assigning meanings to symbols and types, and even then, some rationale must be given for the combination of verses being used. Clear scriptures can interpret obscure or ambiguous verses.
A symbol might allude not just to one, but also to several historical precedents, and the same word in a later book might allude to something completely different (just as ``leaven'' can infer sin in one place and be used in a parable about God's kingdom in another). Each word must be considered in its own context.
· Historical events may provide figurative language about future events. For example, Hosea 9:3 says that Ephraim will return to Egypt and eat unclean things in Assyria. It is possible that Hosea meant that the Israelites would be enslaved by two nations, or it is possible that he is alluding to more than one captivity? Or, he may be using ``Egypt'' to refer to a condition of slavery rather than a specific location. Other scriptures may clarify what he meant. Hosea 11:5, for example, may indicate that Israel would not go to Egypt, but to Assyria.
Hosea has many figurative references to Israel's history, including the Exodus and the wilderness experiences in the desert. Ezekiel 20:35 also seems to use ``desert'' as a figure of speech. We must be aware of similar possibilities for other terms in all the prophets. We must strive to understand the meaning and connotations in the culture of the prophet.
· Bible prophecies are often purposely ambiguous about chronology and other details. Even if the chronology is clear, the spiritual response (such as repentance and faithfulness) is more important than the dates and physical details.
Near- and distant-future predictions may be mixed with no delineation. The fulfillment of some sections (the short-term prophecies) would thus validate or give credibility to the accompanying long-term prophecies. (Possible examples: Babylon's destruction [Isaiah 13] and the Olivet Discourse.)
[ February 12, 2005, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: trailblazer ]
Christ used similarities for a reason and we are too – provided the context calls for it and it does not violate the meaning of the text nor the authors intent. So, ridicule and unscrupulous omissions of “On that day,” or “So will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed” are used by some, they merely bounce off when they are inexcusably not used and other words are used and distorted instead.
Below are classic examples of how the utmost care needs to be used where the prophets are speaking in highly symbolic language. No Christian with any degree of honesty should be taking a verse like Isaiah 2:19 and conclude that people will be literally going into the “holes of the rocks and into the caves (dens) of the earth!”
Are we really supposed to be taking Isaiah 2:19 and the following verses literally also? Surely not!
”Now it shall come to pass in the latter days That the mountain of the Lord's house Shall be established on the top of the mountains, And shall be exalted above the hills; And all nations shall flow to it. Many people shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He shall judge between the nations, and rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.
(Is.2:2-5)
”And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" (Rev. 6:15-17)
“Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place. In the wrath of the Lord of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger.” (Is. 13:13)
"The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain," Says the Lord. (Is. 65:25)
“The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young ones shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall put his hand in the viper’s den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain. For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the seas.” (Is. 11: 6-9)
“…you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Matthew 19:28)
No, it is clear that, for any reasonable and meaningful discussion there has to be more honesty and a sincere attempt to arrive at what God intended these verse to mean and to not use them as mere ping-pong balls, which dishonor the Word of God.
Therefore, I am posting a small portion of an article on how to go about interpreting scripture but primarily, prophetic and symbolic scripture. It does not go into a verse-by-verse and biased interpretation nor does it present a particular doctrinal view. It is from an unknown source and is not copyrighted.
It was highly instructional and seemed to so relevant to the subject of prophetic interpretation of books like Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, and Revelation that anyone holding any view of the end times would benefit greatly from reading it in its entirety which is too long to post here. The bold highlighted areas of special interest are mine.
The entire paper can be read at: http://www.angelfire.com/md/mdmorrison/PROPHECY.html
“Principles of Interpreting Prophecy”
“This paper presents a starting framework for a consistent approach to understanding and explaining the Bible's predictive messages. It does not attempt to discern all prophetic truths -- it focuses on questions we need to consider before we make prophetic conclusions” (the authors footnote stating the purpose of the paper)
(sections 1-6 edited out)
7. Take into account the type of literature that prophecy is.
· Prophecy is not always written in the same way as history, stories, instructions, etc. are, just as our magazine articles today are generally not written in the same way as textbooks, legal opinions or situation comedies.
Prophecy is often poetic, and ancient poetry, like modern poetry, often uses words in a metaphorical or symbolic sense more often than prose does (e.g., Psalm 23). Hosea 12:10 says some of the prophecies were given as parables. Some passages that described events of the Messiah's first coming were given in poetic language; these illustrate how poetic prophecies may use imaginative language.
· Apocalyptic literature (Daniel, Zechariah, Revelation, etc.) in particular is largely built on types and symbols. The symbols may allude to previous biblical events or prophecies, or may allude to non-biblical beliefs of that time. The identification of these symbols, especially non-biblical ones, may be difficult and speculative. It is best to stick to symbols that the Bible clearly interprets for us.
· Typology, symbolism and allegory are important in prophecy, but they can be especially problematic. The Qumran writers, for example, used innovative typology (the Pesher method) to find contemporary events in Scripture and to prove that the end was near.
Typology can be supportive of other scriptures, but it cannot be trusted to stand as primary proof of any point. Other scriptures must serve as a control on assigning meanings to symbols and types, and even then, some rationale must be given for the combination of verses being used. Clear scriptures can interpret obscure or ambiguous verses.
A symbol might allude not just to one, but also to several historical precedents, and the same word in a later book might allude to something completely different (just as ``leaven'' can infer sin in one place and be used in a parable about God's kingdom in another). Each word must be considered in its own context.
· Historical events may provide figurative language about future events. For example, Hosea 9:3 says that Ephraim will return to Egypt and eat unclean things in Assyria. It is possible that Hosea meant that the Israelites would be enslaved by two nations, or it is possible that he is alluding to more than one captivity? Or, he may be using ``Egypt'' to refer to a condition of slavery rather than a specific location. Other scriptures may clarify what he meant. Hosea 11:5, for example, may indicate that Israel would not go to Egypt, but to Assyria.
Hosea has many figurative references to Israel's history, including the Exodus and the wilderness experiences in the desert. Ezekiel 20:35 also seems to use ``desert'' as a figure of speech. We must be aware of similar possibilities for other terms in all the prophets. We must strive to understand the meaning and connotations in the culture of the prophet.
· Bible prophecies are often purposely ambiguous about chronology and other details. Even if the chronology is clear, the spiritual response (such as repentance and faithfulness) is more important than the dates and physical details.
Near- and distant-future predictions may be mixed with no delineation. The fulfillment of some sections (the short-term prophecies) would thus validate or give credibility to the accompanying long-term prophecies. (Possible examples: Babylon's destruction [Isaiah 13] and the Olivet Discourse.)
[ February 12, 2005, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: trailblazer ]
Daniel David
New Member
Trailblazer, when did the regeneration take place that Christ promised in Matthew 19:28?
Whatever your answer is, it is also at the exact same time that the Lord rules from his throne, AND the disciples rule the nation of Israel.
Whatever your answer is, it is also at the exact same time that the Lord rules from his throne, AND the disciples rule the nation of Israel.
Okay, Ed, I have some questions for you that are nagging me and although I lean towards your view I still have not been able to get past these. Can you explain them to me.
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
What is going on here? Why should those of Judea (which is where Jerusalem just happens to be) run for the hills?
Finally:
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
I have difficulty believing that "generation" is interpreted as meaning "race of people", etc. Can you explain this satisfactorily?
You know that I am not qualified to debate this, simply looking for answers....Thanks Ed.......
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
What is going on here? Why should those of Judea (which is where Jerusalem just happens to be) run for the hills?
Finally:
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
I have difficulty believing that "generation" is interpreted as meaning "race of people", etc. Can you explain this satisfactorily?
You know that I am not qualified to debate this, simply looking for answers....Thanks Ed.......
trailblazer
New Member
A- Matthew 24. Matthew 24:21 says;
From this several things are noteworthy. First is that the elect go through the Great Tribulation – verses 21-22. (Rev. 7 will support this also)
”There will be Great Tribulation, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.” The elect are on earth for that Great Tribulation, otherwise there is no need to shorten the period.
Secondly, it is only “after” the tribulation of those days that the elect on earth have now gone through that the Son of man appears on the clouds of heaven. But then notice something in verse 30. It says “all the tribes of the earth will mourn.” Can it be said the elect are going to be “mourning the sight of Christ coming? I should hope not! Therefore, this can only mean that the unsaved suddenly know their fate and it is they that “mourn.” But what about the “elect” if they are supposed to be on earth at that time, you might ask? Well, by the same token, “they” will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory!” They has to refer to the elect out of all the tribes of the earth because God has never revealed himself in all His glory to the unsaved at any time in history – only in judgment does he reveal himself to them. But the point is that when Christ suddenly appears, the just and the just are on earth together and the Great Tribulation has passed.
Now, we have the Great Tribulation that has passed with the elect having gone through it, the just and the unjust are on earth when the Son of man appears on the clouds of heaven and then the gathering of the elect that are still on earth takes place and the close of the age occurs immediately after. (verse 29) The answer to the disciples of what the sign of his coming and of the close of the age of verse 3 is answered.
From this several things are noteworthy. First is that the elect go through the Great Tribulation – verses 21-22. (Rev. 7 will support this also)
”There will be Great Tribulation, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.” The elect are on earth for that Great Tribulation, otherwise there is no need to shorten the period.
Secondly, it is only “after” the tribulation of those days that the elect on earth have now gone through that the Son of man appears on the clouds of heaven. But then notice something in verse 30. It says “all the tribes of the earth will mourn.” Can it be said the elect are going to be “mourning the sight of Christ coming? I should hope not! Therefore, this can only mean that the unsaved suddenly know their fate and it is they that “mourn.” But what about the “elect” if they are supposed to be on earth at that time, you might ask? Well, by the same token, “they” will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory!” They has to refer to the elect out of all the tribes of the earth because God has never revealed himself in all His glory to the unsaved at any time in history – only in judgment does he reveal himself to them. But the point is that when Christ suddenly appears, the just and the just are on earth together and the Great Tribulation has passed.
Now, we have the Great Tribulation that has passed with the elect having gone through it, the just and the unjust are on earth when the Son of man appears on the clouds of heaven and then the gathering of the elect that are still on earth takes place and the close of the age occurs immediately after. (verse 29) The answer to the disciples of what the sign of his coming and of the close of the age of verse 3 is answered.
trailblazer
New Member
Philip,
For a more detailed discussion of your questions, go to the previous thread of "The Reign of Amillenial Theology" and go to page 20. Then scroll down to my lengthy discussion beginning with the posted logged in on Feb. 10 at 1:28 p.m.
(not the first one of 1:12 p.m. because it was accidently posted as a repeat)
For a more detailed discussion of your questions, go to the previous thread of "The Reign of Amillenial Theology" and go to page 20. Then scroll down to my lengthy discussion beginning with the posted logged in on Feb. 10 at 1:28 p.m.
(not the first one of 1:12 p.m. because it was accidently posted as a repeat)
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Phillip: "What is going on here? Why should those
of Judea (which is where Jerusalem just happens
to be) run for the hills?"
I've seen this in the USofA. I saw it in 1999 when
people in the USofA got all bent out of shape about
a computer problem called "Y2K" or "year two thousand".
I don't know why they started to ren for the hills,
they don't live in Judea.
Revelation 12:14 (HCSB):
The woman was given two wings of a great eagle, so that she could fly from the serpent's presence to her place in the wilderness, where she was fed for a time, times, and half a time.
Of course a time (1), times (2), and half
a time (½) is the 3½-year long second half of the
tribulation day. I think God will supranaturally
save the Jews of Judea in the midst of the tribulation day
by taking them out of the area of Jerusalem and
into the desert. So I think this is why Jesus
tells us Matthew 24:16-21.
I do NOT think that this scripture was for the
Jews in 68-70 AD. The Jews who escaped were
NOT in Judea when the armies of General
Titus (later Emperor Titus) approached.
Titus set siege to Jerusalem and few escaped
the wrath of antichrist Titus (NOT Antichrist Titus).
This prophecy has yet to be fufilled.
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Phillip: "What is going on here? Why should those
of Judea (which is where Jerusalem just happens
to be) run for the hills?"
I've seen this in the USofA. I saw it in 1999 when
people in the USofA got all bent out of shape about
a computer problem called "Y2K" or "year two thousand".
I don't know why they started to ren for the hills,
they don't live in Judea.
Revelation 12:14 (HCSB):
The woman was given two wings of a great eagle, so that she could fly from the serpent's presence to her place in the wilderness, where she was fed for a time, times, and half a time.
Of course a time (1), times (2), and half
a time (½) is the 3½-year long second half of the
tribulation day. I think God will supranaturally
save the Jews of Judea in the midst of the tribulation day
by taking them out of the area of Jerusalem and
into the desert. So I think this is why Jesus
tells us Matthew 24:16-21.
I do NOT think that this scripture was for the
Jews in 68-70 AD. The Jews who escaped were
NOT in Judea when the armies of General
Titus (later Emperor Titus) approached.
Titus set siege to Jerusalem and few escaped
the wrath of antichrist Titus (NOT Antichrist Titus).
This prophecy has yet to be fufilled.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation
shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Phillip: //I have difficulty believing that "generation"
is interpreted as meaning "race of people",
etc. Can you explain this satisfactorily?//
No, i cannot explain this to the satisfaction of
everybody. First of all, i believe that
Matthew 24:31 to 24:44 is the answer of Jesus to
the question:
KJV: what is the sign of the end of the world
correct translation: what is
the sign of the end of the age.
The word in Matthew 24:3 is Greek: 'aeon' meaning
age = long period of time
not Greek: 'cosmos' meaning the physical stuff.
BTW, in DOCTRINES AND COVENENTS, the false prophet
Joseph Smith, JR. says that both are the same
thing.
I don't believe so. I believe that Jesus answer the
question: What is the sign of the end of the age.
And that age is the Church Age.
I get a lot of huff about "church age" cause the
church is forever as part of the body of Christ
as well as the eternal bride of Christ. Fine, the
church is forever in Christ. But the time in which
one can get into the church is limited
(Now is the appointed time).
Anyway, Jesus says there is no sign of the coming of
the end of the age. Matthew 24:4-14 shows the signs
that the church age is still going on.
---------------------------------------------
These are what i'm calling "the church age":
Mt 12:32 (nKJV):
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man,
it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks
against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven
him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Mt 13:39 (nKJV):
The enemy who sowed them is the devil,
the harvest is the end of the age,
and the reapers are the angels.
Mt 13:40 (nKJV):
Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned
in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
Mt 13:49 (nKJV):
So it will be at the end of the age.
The angels will come forth, separate the
wicked from among the just,
Mt 24:3 (nKJV):
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives,
the disciples came to Him privately, saying,
"Tell us, when will these things be?
And what will be the sign of Your coming,
and of the end of the age?"
Mt 28:20 (nKJV):
teaching them to observe all things that I have
commanded you; and lo, I am with you always,
even to the end of the age." Amen.
Mr 10:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive a hundredfold now
in this time--houses and brothers and sisters
and mothers and children and lands,
with persecutions--and in the age to come, eternal life.
Lu 18:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive many times more in this present time,
and in the age to come eternal life."
Lu 20:34-35 (nKJV):
And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age
marry and are given in marriage.
But those who are counted worthy to attain that age,
and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry
nor are given in marriage;
1Co 1:20 (nKJV):
Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the
disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish
the wisdom of this world?
1Co 2:6 (nKJV):
However, we speak wisdom among those who
are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age,
nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
1Co 2:8 (nKJV):
which none of the rulers ofthis age knew;
for had they known, they would not have crucified
the Lord of glory.
1Co 3:18 (nKJV):
Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems
to be wise in this age, let him become a fool
that he may become wise.
2Co 4:4 (nKJV):
whose minds the god of this age has blinded,
who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel
of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God,
should shine on them.
Ga 1:4 (nKJV):
who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver
us from this present evil age,
according to the will of our God and Father,
Eph 1:21 (nKJV):
far above all principality and power and might
and dominion, and every name that is named,
not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
Eph 6:12 (nKJV):
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood,
but against principalities, against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this age,
against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
1Ti 6:17 (nKJV):
Command those who are rich in this present age
not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain
riches but in the living God, who gives us
richly all things to enjoy.
Tit 2:12 (nKJV):
teaching us that, denying ungodliness and
worldly lusts, we should live soberly,
righteously, and godly in the present age,
Gentile Age:
Luke 21:24 (nKJV):
24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword,
and be led away captive into all nations.
And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles
until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
This excerpt from the Mount Olivet Discourse
parallels Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21.
All are the MOD speaking of Jesus, when
He predicted what would happen in the future.
-------------------------------------
Anyway, i don't have any idea why these two
ideas: one generation
and almost 2000 years passing don't seem
to match. But they match as close in
the post-trib pre-mill world as they do
in the pretrib pre-mill world.
But i'll say this: the christ that returned
in 70AD was a wimp. The Millinnial Kingdom
that some christ is supposed to have started
in 70AD is no kingdom at all.
I'm a futurist, my Lord and Savior, Messiah
Yeshua shall come get me someday. I don't know
if it will happen when i die or when
i get raptured BUT I'M TAKING IT TO THE BANK:
Jesus is going to come and get me.
- ready eddie
shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Phillip: //I have difficulty believing that "generation"
is interpreted as meaning "race of people",
etc. Can you explain this satisfactorily?//
No, i cannot explain this to the satisfaction of
everybody. First of all, i believe that
Matthew 24:31 to 24:44 is the answer of Jesus to
the question:
KJV: what is the sign of the end of the world
correct translation: what is
the sign of the end of the age.
The word in Matthew 24:3 is Greek: 'aeon' meaning
age = long period of time
not Greek: 'cosmos' meaning the physical stuff.
BTW, in DOCTRINES AND COVENENTS, the false prophet
Joseph Smith, JR. says that both are the same
thing.
I don't believe so. I believe that Jesus answer the
question: What is the sign of the end of the age.
And that age is the Church Age.
I get a lot of huff about "church age" cause the
church is forever as part of the body of Christ
as well as the eternal bride of Christ. Fine, the
church is forever in Christ. But the time in which
one can get into the church is limited
(Now is the appointed time).
Anyway, Jesus says there is no sign of the coming of
the end of the age. Matthew 24:4-14 shows the signs
that the church age is still going on.
---------------------------------------------
These are what i'm calling "the church age":
Mt 12:32 (nKJV):
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man,
it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks
against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven
him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Mt 13:39 (nKJV):
The enemy who sowed them is the devil,
the harvest is the end of the age,
and the reapers are the angels.
Mt 13:40 (nKJV):
Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned
in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
Mt 13:49 (nKJV):
So it will be at the end of the age.
The angels will come forth, separate the
wicked from among the just,
Mt 24:3 (nKJV):
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives,
the disciples came to Him privately, saying,
"Tell us, when will these things be?
And what will be the sign of Your coming,
and of the end of the age?"
Mt 28:20 (nKJV):
teaching them to observe all things that I have
commanded you; and lo, I am with you always,
even to the end of the age." Amen.
Mr 10:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive a hundredfold now
in this time--houses and brothers and sisters
and mothers and children and lands,
with persecutions--and in the age to come, eternal life.
Lu 18:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive many times more in this present time,
and in the age to come eternal life."
Lu 20:34-35 (nKJV):
And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age
marry and are given in marriage.
But those who are counted worthy to attain that age,
and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry
nor are given in marriage;
1Co 1:20 (nKJV):
Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the
disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish
the wisdom of this world?
1Co 2:6 (nKJV):
However, we speak wisdom among those who
are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age,
nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
1Co 2:8 (nKJV):
which none of the rulers ofthis age knew;
for had they known, they would not have crucified
the Lord of glory.
1Co 3:18 (nKJV):
Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems
to be wise in this age, let him become a fool
that he may become wise.
2Co 4:4 (nKJV):
whose minds the god of this age has blinded,
who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel
of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God,
should shine on them.
Ga 1:4 (nKJV):
who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver
us from this present evil age,
according to the will of our God and Father,
Eph 1:21 (nKJV):
far above all principality and power and might
and dominion, and every name that is named,
not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
Eph 6:12 (nKJV):
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood,
but against principalities, against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this age,
against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
1Ti 6:17 (nKJV):
Command those who are rich in this present age
not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain
riches but in the living God, who gives us
richly all things to enjoy.
Tit 2:12 (nKJV):
teaching us that, denying ungodliness and
worldly lusts, we should live soberly,
righteously, and godly in the present age,
Gentile Age:
Luke 21:24 (nKJV):
24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword,
and be led away captive into all nations.
And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles
until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
This excerpt from the Mount Olivet Discourse
parallels Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21.
All are the MOD speaking of Jesus, when
He predicted what would happen in the future.
-------------------------------------
Anyway, i don't have any idea why these two
ideas: one generation
and almost 2000 years passing don't seem
to match. But they match as close in
the post-trib pre-mill world as they do
in the pretrib pre-mill world.
But i'll say this: the christ that returned
in 70AD was a wimp. The Millinnial Kingdom
that some christ is supposed to have started
in 70AD is no kingdom at all.
I'm a futurist, my Lord and Savior, Messiah
Yeshua shall come get me someday. I don't know
if it will happen when i die or when
i get raptured BUT I'M TAKING IT TO THE BANK:
Jesus is going to come and get me.
trailblazer
New Member
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the Lord…” (Is. 55:8)
“There is a way which seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.” (Proverbs 14:12)
trailblazer
New Member
This is a sidetrack issue. The 4 questions that WATCHMAN raised have not been completely resolved. I will address your question in due time.
1) Concerning Matt 24, the tribulation of “those days” includes not only the destruction of Jerusalem, but all the other tribulations which the church must pass through;
2) that God's elect, even though they go through the Great Tribulation, do not suffer God's wrath, punishment or condemnation. “Do not at all fear what “you” are about to suffer. Behold, the Devil will cast some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful to death, and I will give you the crown of [eternal] life.” (Rev 2:10)
3) that the "great multitude of white robed saints, which no man could number, from all tribes, peoples and tongues that are standing before the throne of God and the lamb" of Rev 6:11, 7:14 and Rev 22:12-14 all of which have the right to the tree of life are entitled to enter the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, can be no one else but those who came out of the "Great Tribulation."
4) that "the church cannot be shown to be raptured out" prior to the Great Tribulation based on Rev 7:14 alone if it is taken "literally,"
Daniel David
New Member
Trailblazer, this issue was left undealt with by your side in the thread I started. You amills went 20 pages without dealing with it in an intelligent manner.
Frankly I don't need your answer. [personal attack deleted] I just wanted to point it out again that amills cannot answer so much. I got bored in the last thread asking the same questions only to have them unanswered.
[ February 12, 2005, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: Phillip ]
Frankly I don't need your answer. [personal attack deleted] I just wanted to point it out again that amills cannot answer so much. I got bored in the last thread asking the same questions only to have them unanswered.
[ February 12, 2005, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: Phillip ]
trailblazer
New Member
[personal attack deleted]
[ February 12, 2005, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: Phillip ]
[ February 12, 2005, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: Phillip ]
Daniel David
New Member
what?