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A-millennialism still reigns supreme -
- Thread starter trailblazer
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trailblazer
New Member
Thank you Phillip,
Lost it there for a moment!
Lost it there for a moment!
Amill’s deny the nature of the coming great tribulation period.
It is not the troubles, trials and, yes, tribulations (plural) that a Christian faces in life.
God’s Word says:
(Deu 4:30) When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
(Deu 4:31) (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God
he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
(Isa 2:19) And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
(Isa 24:1) Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
(Isa 24:3) The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.
(Isa 24:6) Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
(Isa 24:19) The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
(Isa 24:20) The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
(Isa 24:21) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
(Isa 26:20) Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
(Isa 26:21) For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
(Jer 30:7) Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
(Dan 9:27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(Dan 12:1) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
(Joe 1:15) Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
(Joe 2:1) Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
(Joel 2:2) A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
(Amos 5:18) Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
(Amos 5:20) Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
(Zep 1:14) The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
(Zep 1:15) That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
(Zep 1:18) Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
(Mat 24:21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
(Mat 24:22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
(Luk 21:25) And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
(Luk 21:26) Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
(1Th 5:3) For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
(Rev 3:10) Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
(Rev 6:15) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
(Rev 6:16) And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
(Rev 6:17) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
It is not the troubles, trials and, yes, tribulations (plural) that a Christian faces in life.
God’s Word says:
(Deu 4:30) When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
(Deu 4:31) (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God
he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.(Isa 2:19) And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
(Isa 24:1) Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
(Isa 24:3) The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.
(Isa 24:6) Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
(Isa 24:19) The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
(Isa 24:20) The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
(Isa 24:21) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
(Isa 26:20) Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
(Isa 26:21) For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
(Jer 30:7) Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
(Dan 9:27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(Dan 12:1) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
(Joe 1:15) Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
(Joe 2:1) Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
(Joel 2:2) A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
(Amos 5:18) Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
(Amos 5:20) Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
(Zep 1:14) The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
(Zep 1:15) That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
(Zep 1:18) Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
(Mat 24:21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
(Mat 24:22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
(Luk 21:25) And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
(Luk 21:26) Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
(1Th 5:3) For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
(Rev 3:10) Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
(Rev 6:15) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
(Rev 6:16) And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
(Rev 6:17) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Amill’s deny the source of this coming great tribulation. It is God Himself.
God’s Word says:
(Isa 24:1) Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
(Joe 1:15) Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
(Zep 1:18) Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
(Rev 6:16) And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
(Rev 6:17) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
(Rev 11:18) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
(Rev 14:7) Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
(Rev 14:10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(Rev 14:19) And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
(Rev 15:4) Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
(Rev 15:7) And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
(Rev 16:1) And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
(Rev 16:7) And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
(Rev 16:19) And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
(Rev 19:1) And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
(Rev 19:2) For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Since this is a period of the out-pouring of God’s wrath, is it for the Church?
God’s Word says:
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
(Rom 8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
God’s Word says:
(Isa 24:1) Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
(Joe 1:15) Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
(Zep 1:18) Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
(Rev 6:16) And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
(Rev 6:17) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
(Rev 11:18) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
(Rev 14:7) Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
(Rev 14:10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(Rev 14:19) And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
(Rev 15:4) Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
(Rev 15:7) And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
(Rev 16:1) And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
(Rev 16:7) And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
(Rev 16:19) And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
(Rev 19:1) And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
(Rev 19:2) For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Since this is a period of the out-pouring of God’s wrath, is it for the Church?
God’s Word says:
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
(Rom 8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
trailblazer
New Member
WATCHMAN,
Could you elaborate just a tad on those 31 verses? Because I still have yet to see a verse that says that there is a rapture anywhere in Matthew 24, Luke 17 or Revelation 7 so could you tell me which verse in those books has it?
And it is not accurate to say that "Amill’s deny the nature of the coming great tribulation period" because it isn't that we deny the nature of it - it is that we don't agree that there is a rapture before a literal kingdom of Christ of 1,000 literal years.
But I would say that you deny the more clear and obvious conclusions of the very text that you originally brought forth as the basis of your arguments because you have not told me where I erred in my detailed rebuttal.
Also, Luke 17 was so clear and compelling that no defense has been possible by dispensationalist in regards to the fact that resurrection,separation, and judgment all occur as the one last major event in history "on the very same day" with NO literal earthly kingdom of a 1,000 years even remotely hinted at in Christ's instructions for all Christian of all time concerning his own Second Coming. So, I ask you - do you deny God's Word in regards to the fact that everything is on the same day in Luke 17?
Could you elaborate just a tad on those 31 verses? Because I still have yet to see a verse that says that there is a rapture anywhere in Matthew 24, Luke 17 or Revelation 7 so could you tell me which verse in those books has it?
And it is not accurate to say that "Amill’s deny the nature of the coming great tribulation period" because it isn't that we deny the nature of it - it is that we don't agree that there is a rapture before a literal kingdom of Christ of 1,000 literal years.
But I would say that you deny the more clear and obvious conclusions of the very text that you originally brought forth as the basis of your arguments because you have not told me where I erred in my detailed rebuttal.
Also, Luke 17 was so clear and compelling that no defense has been possible by dispensationalist in regards to the fact that resurrection,separation, and judgment all occur as the one last major event in history "on the very same day" with NO literal earthly kingdom of a 1,000 years even remotely hinted at in Christ's instructions for all Christian of all time concerning his own Second Coming. So, I ask you - do you deny God's Word in regards to the fact that everything is on the same day in Luke 17?
Daniel David
New Member
Trailblazer, were you going to answer or hope that if you ignore it long enough, the verse will disappear from your Bible?
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Trailblazer: //Because I still have yet to see a verse that says that there is a rapture anywhere in Matthew 24, Luke 17 or Revelation 7 so could you tell me which verse in those books has it?//
The rapture is in Matthew 24:31, it is called "the gathering".
The rapture isn't in Revelation 7, the pretribulation
rapture is in Revelation 4:1 by type.
Matthew 24:31-44 is about the Rapture.
Luke 17:16:37 is similar to Matthew 24:31-44
(but may have elements of the second coming
of Jesus in power and glory to destroy the antichrist
and set up the Physical Millinnial Kingdom of Christ.
Trailblazer: //So, I ask you - do you deny God's
Word in regards to the fact that everything is
on the same day in Luke 17?//
I deny you know what a 'day' is. All the events described
in Luke 17 will happen on the same Tribulation Day
which we all know will be SEVEN YEARS LONG.
Want to talk about he 1,000 year long 'day' when
Christ rules personally and physically on the earth
(which day has not happened yet)?
The rapture is in Matthew 24:31, it is called "the gathering".
The rapture isn't in Revelation 7, the pretribulation
rapture is in Revelation 4:1 by type.
Matthew 24:31-44 is about the Rapture.
Luke 17:16:37 is similar to Matthew 24:31-44
(but may have elements of the second coming
of Jesus in power and glory to destroy the antichrist
and set up the Physical Millinnial Kingdom of Christ.
Trailblazer: //So, I ask you - do you deny God's
Word in regards to the fact that everything is
on the same day in Luke 17?//
I deny you know what a 'day' is. All the events described
in Luke 17 will happen on the same Tribulation Day
which we all know will be SEVEN YEARS LONG.
Want to talk about he 1,000 year long 'day' when
Christ rules personally and physically on the earth
(which day has not happened yet)?
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Thank you brother Watchman for all the good
scriptures. Here is how those scriptures
hang together (which BTW is not a-mill):
-----------------------------
The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed
The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble
1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus
4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus
5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus
Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:
The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:
scriptures. Here is how those scriptures
hang together (which BTW is not a-mill):
-----------------------------
The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed
The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble
1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus
4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus
5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus
Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:
The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Anomalies in the Two Event Second Coming
The dispensational system of interpretation teaches that there are two appearances of Jesus Christ in relation to the second-coming: first, a coming for the Church, the secret Rapture, and second, a coming with the Church, at which time the millennial kingdom will be established. The Bible does use three different words in describing the return of Jesus Christ, parousia [presence], apokalypsis [revelation], and epiphaneia [appearance]. Dispensationalists claim to be able to distinguish between these Biblical descriptions of the second-coming. There are several passages of Scripture assigned by the dispensationalist to either the first or second event that raise questions on comparison. However, Hoekema in the Bible and The Future shows [pages 165-6] that their usage provides no basis for establishing a two event second-coming. Perhaps even more convincing is a proper interpretation of the Biblical prophecies and descriptions concerning the return of the Lord Jesus Christ in power and glory. Consider first the issue of the Trumpets and the Return of Jesus Christ.
The Trumpets and The Return of Jesus Christ
There are several passages in the New Testament in which the sound of trumpets is associated with the second-coming and/or the resurrection. It is interesting to look at these passages and their possible relation to each other. A passage in 1 Corinthians 15, commonly assigned by the dispensationalists to the pretribulation rapture, reads as follows:
1 Corinthians 15:50-53, KJV
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
Notice that in 1 Corinthians 15:52 the supposed pretribulation rapture is associated with the sound of the last trumpet. It is also significant that in this passage which dispensationalists assign to the pretribulation rapture Paul declares that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Given this statement Paul is obviously not talking about a resurrection prior to the establishment of an earthly millennial kingdom but the resurrection as described in John 5:28, 29 and the Kingdom of God in the New Heavens and Earth.
The 24th Chapter of Matthew is sometimes referred to as the little apocalypse. In this chapter after the great tribulation has occurred the return of Jesus Christ is described as follows:
Matthew 24:29-31, KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Notice again that the sound of a trumpet is associated with the return of Jesus Christ. The dispensationalist places this return after the rapture of the Church and after the great tribulation. Yet Paul indicates in 1 Corinthians 15:52 that the sound of the last trumpet is associated with the resurrection of the Saints, which, according to the dispensationalist, occurs before the great tribulation.
In the passage in 1 Thessalonians that dispensationalists also assert refers to the pretribulation rapture of the Church, the sound of a trumpet also is heard.
1 Thessalonians 4:16,17, KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
If we reflect back to 1 Corinthians 15:52, the trump of God in the above passage is apparently the last trumpet since both passages point to the resurrection of the Saints.
There is one additional passage of Scripture in which the sound of the last trumpet is associated with the return of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 11:15-19, KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
The seventh angel sounded the last trumpet. Then The kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. The passage goes on to say that the dead will be judged, the Saints will be rewarded, and those who destroy the earth will be destroyed. This passage is apparently referring to a general resurrection and judgment [Verse 18] following the last trumpet. Yet according to dispensational the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52 and the trumpet of 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 is associated only with the rapture of the Church. What does all this mean? It means that the dispensational-premillennial interpretation of the resurrection is incorrect. It means that there is one general resurrection and one judgment which includes those who are dead in Jesus Christ and those who are dead in Adam.
The dispensational system of interpretation teaches that there are two appearances of Jesus Christ in relation to the second-coming: first, a coming for the Church, the secret Rapture, and second, a coming with the Church, at which time the millennial kingdom will be established. The Bible does use three different words in describing the return of Jesus Christ, parousia [presence], apokalypsis [revelation], and epiphaneia [appearance]. Dispensationalists claim to be able to distinguish between these Biblical descriptions of the second-coming. There are several passages of Scripture assigned by the dispensationalist to either the first or second event that raise questions on comparison. However, Hoekema in the Bible and The Future shows [pages 165-6] that their usage provides no basis for establishing a two event second-coming. Perhaps even more convincing is a proper interpretation of the Biblical prophecies and descriptions concerning the return of the Lord Jesus Christ in power and glory. Consider first the issue of the Trumpets and the Return of Jesus Christ.
The Trumpets and The Return of Jesus Christ
There are several passages in the New Testament in which the sound of trumpets is associated with the second-coming and/or the resurrection. It is interesting to look at these passages and their possible relation to each other. A passage in 1 Corinthians 15, commonly assigned by the dispensationalists to the pretribulation rapture, reads as follows:
1 Corinthians 15:50-53, KJV
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
Notice that in 1 Corinthians 15:52 the supposed pretribulation rapture is associated with the sound of the last trumpet. It is also significant that in this passage which dispensationalists assign to the pretribulation rapture Paul declares that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Given this statement Paul is obviously not talking about a resurrection prior to the establishment of an earthly millennial kingdom but the resurrection as described in John 5:28, 29 and the Kingdom of God in the New Heavens and Earth.
The 24th Chapter of Matthew is sometimes referred to as the little apocalypse. In this chapter after the great tribulation has occurred the return of Jesus Christ is described as follows:
Matthew 24:29-31, KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Notice again that the sound of a trumpet is associated with the return of Jesus Christ. The dispensationalist places this return after the rapture of the Church and after the great tribulation. Yet Paul indicates in 1 Corinthians 15:52 that the sound of the last trumpet is associated with the resurrection of the Saints, which, according to the dispensationalist, occurs before the great tribulation.
In the passage in 1 Thessalonians that dispensationalists also assert refers to the pretribulation rapture of the Church, the sound of a trumpet also is heard.
1 Thessalonians 4:16,17, KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
If we reflect back to 1 Corinthians 15:52, the trump of God in the above passage is apparently the last trumpet since both passages point to the resurrection of the Saints.
There is one additional passage of Scripture in which the sound of the last trumpet is associated with the return of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 11:15-19, KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
The seventh angel sounded the last trumpet. Then The kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. The passage goes on to say that the dead will be judged, the Saints will be rewarded, and those who destroy the earth will be destroyed. This passage is apparently referring to a general resurrection and judgment [Verse 18] following the last trumpet. Yet according to dispensational the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52 and the trumpet of 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 is associated only with the rapture of the Church. What does all this mean? It means that the dispensational-premillennial interpretation of the resurrection is incorrect. It means that there is one general resurrection and one judgment which includes those who are dead in Jesus Christ and those who are dead in Adam.
Daniel David
New Member
Maybe amills can do more than some pathetic hacheneyed attempt to explain away truth.
Oldreg, I encourage you to stop putting verses into a hat, shaking it up, and then picking one out and then starting over again to get your systematic theology down.
Try exercising thinking skills.
Oldreg, I encourage you to stop putting verses into a hat, shaking it up, and then picking one out and then starting over again to get your systematic theology down.
Try exercising thinking skills.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
I doubt they can.
Say Bro. DD - do you teach a "secret rapture"?
No, you don't. Nobody on the Baptist Board
teaches a Secret Rapture. But select people
who don't bother to follow the converstations here
still can't figure out that NO PRETRIB WHO POSTS
ON THE BAPTIST BOARD teaches the "secret
rapture". Have fun tearing your strawman
to bits. BTW, i've seen better demolitions
of the "secret rapture" strawman than the
one on this page
Daniel David
New Member
Hardly a secret. It will be a world wide event. The Scriptures tell us that God will send a lie for people to believe after the rapture takes place.
Secret? Not likely.
Another mindless strawman that characterizes all amill thinking skills? Definitely.
Secret? Not likely.
Another mindless strawman that characterizes all amill thinking skills? Definitely.
trailblazer
New Member
Old Regular,
Thank you for your very well thought out presentation. However, it was the WATCHMAN post that challenged me concerning Matt 24, Luke 17 and Revelation. I think what has happened is that it wasn’t conceivable that God’s Word would be successful in refuting those theories with scripture. Therefore, it seems to be that pre-millennialists avoid facing the fact that when a challenge results in getting oneself backed into a corner that requires change it usually ends up in simple denial while ignoring that the foundation of their beliefs are built on shifting sand. It’s tough when anyone has to face the fact that the foundation of ones belief system was built on error during the last 150 years by one individual that got his ideas from a 16 year old by the name of Margaret MacDonald. That faulty foundation that the WATCHMAN post was built upon has been shaken loose and is obvious by the way it is being ignored or by creating diversions.
But when it is put forth that Matthew 24:31 is a verse that indicates a “rapture” before a 1,000 year earthly reign of Christ, I can’t let that go because nowhere in Matthew 24 does it even hint of an earthly kingdom following his Second and only remaining Coming.
A- Matthew 24 and Revelation 7 prove conclusively the elect/church go through the Great Tribulation for anyone who actually takes the time to read it.
B- Luke 17 quotes Christ Himself where he is teaching all Christians of all times what His return will be like. With Christ Second Coming he is stating emphatically that the separation of the just and the unjust, the punishment of the ungodly and the rapture of the elect/church occur on “the very same day” and that it is the last day! One ultimately has to deny Christ’s very own words in order to hold fast a teaching that says otherwise. The WATCHMAN post used Luke 17 to try and say that the elect do not go through the Great Tribulation but it didn’t hold water any more than Matthew 24 does.
Matthew 24:21 says;
”There will be Great Tribulation, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.” The elect are on ON EARTH for that Great Tribulation, otherwise there is no need to shorten the period! There simply is no other way for this to be interpreted and still be honest with God’s Word.
Secondly, it is only “after” the tribulation of those days that the elect on earth have now gone through that the Son of man appears on the clouds of heaven. But then notice something in verse 30. It says “all the tribes of the earth will mourn.” Can it be said the elect are going to be “mourning the sight of Christ coming? I should hope not! Therefore, this can only mean that the unsaved suddenly know their fate and it is they that “mourn.” But what about the “elect” if they are supposed to be on earth at that time, you might ask? Well, by the same token, “they” will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory!” ”They” has to refer to the elect [b/out of all the tribes of the earth[/b] because God has never revealed himself in all His glory to the unsaved at any time in history – only in judgment does he reveal himself to them. But the point is that when Christ suddenly appears, the just and the just are on earth together and the Great Tribulation has passed.
Now, we have the Great Tribulation that has passed with the elect having gone through it, the just and the unjust are on earth when the Son of man appears on the clouds of heaven and then the gathering of the elect that are still on earth takes place and the close of the age occurs immediately after. (verse 29) The answer to the disciples of what the sign of his coming and of the close of the age of verse 3 is answered.
Now, what about "the white robed great tribulation saints?"
Next is Rev. 7:9-17 but only to the references of “the white robed saints.”
Thank you for your very well thought out presentation. However, it was the WATCHMAN post that challenged me concerning Matt 24, Luke 17 and Revelation. I think what has happened is that it wasn’t conceivable that God’s Word would be successful in refuting those theories with scripture. Therefore, it seems to be that pre-millennialists avoid facing the fact that when a challenge results in getting oneself backed into a corner that requires change it usually ends up in simple denial while ignoring that the foundation of their beliefs are built on shifting sand. It’s tough when anyone has to face the fact that the foundation of ones belief system was built on error during the last 150 years by one individual that got his ideas from a 16 year old by the name of Margaret MacDonald. That faulty foundation that the WATCHMAN post was built upon has been shaken loose and is obvious by the way it is being ignored or by creating diversions.
But when it is put forth that Matthew 24:31 is a verse that indicates a “rapture” before a 1,000 year earthly reign of Christ, I can’t let that go because nowhere in Matthew 24 does it even hint of an earthly kingdom following his Second and only remaining Coming.
A- Matthew 24 and Revelation 7 prove conclusively the elect/church go through the Great Tribulation for anyone who actually takes the time to read it.
B- Luke 17 quotes Christ Himself where he is teaching all Christians of all times what His return will be like. With Christ Second Coming he is stating emphatically that the separation of the just and the unjust, the punishment of the ungodly and the rapture of the elect/church occur on “the very same day” and that it is the last day! One ultimately has to deny Christ’s very own words in order to hold fast a teaching that says otherwise. The WATCHMAN post used Luke 17 to try and say that the elect do not go through the Great Tribulation but it didn’t hold water any more than Matthew 24 does.
Matthew 24:21 says;
From this several things are noteworthy. First is that the elect go through the Great Tribulation – verses 21-22. (Rev. 7 will support this also)
”There will be Great Tribulation, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.” The elect are on ON EARTH for that Great Tribulation, otherwise there is no need to shorten the period! There simply is no other way for this to be interpreted and still be honest with God’s Word.
Secondly, it is only “after” the tribulation of those days that the elect on earth have now gone through that the Son of man appears on the clouds of heaven. But then notice something in verse 30. It says “all the tribes of the earth will mourn.” Can it be said the elect are going to be “mourning the sight of Christ coming? I should hope not! Therefore, this can only mean that the unsaved suddenly know their fate and it is they that “mourn.” But what about the “elect” if they are supposed to be on earth at that time, you might ask? Well, by the same token, “they” will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory!” ”They” has to refer to the elect [b/out of all the tribes of the earth[/b] because God has never revealed himself in all His glory to the unsaved at any time in history – only in judgment does he reveal himself to them. But the point is that when Christ suddenly appears, the just and the just are on earth together and the Great Tribulation has passed.
Now, we have the Great Tribulation that has passed with the elect having gone through it, the just and the unjust are on earth when the Son of man appears on the clouds of heaven and then the gathering of the elect that are still on earth takes place and the close of the age occurs immediately after. (verse 29) The answer to the disciples of what the sign of his coming and of the close of the age of verse 3 is answered.
Now, what about "the white robed great tribulation saints?"
Next is Rev. 7:9-17 but only to the references of “the white robed saints.”
Now, who has“clean white robes?” All those who came out of the “great tribulation.” But let’s go further and look at the last reference to those saints wearing white robes.
In order to be entitled to wear those white robes, we must be prepared to go through any tribulation – whether that is Great or small.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Anomalies in the Two Event Second Coming [continued]
As noted earlier the dispensational system of interpretation teaches that there are two appearances of Jesus Christ in relation to the Second-Coming of Jesus Christ: first, a coming for the Church, the secret Rapture, and second, a coming with the Church, at which time the millennial kingdom will be established. The Bible does use three different words in describing the return of Jesus Christ, parousia [presence], apokalypsis [revelation], and epiphaneia [appearance]. Dispensationalists claim to be able to distinguish between these Biblical descriptions of the second-coming. There are several passages of Scripture assigned by the dispensationalist to either the first or second event that raise questions on comparison. However, Hoekema in the Bible and The Future shows [pages 165-6] that their usage provides no basis for establishing a two event second-coming. Perhaps even more convincing is a proper interpretation of the Biblical prophecies and descriptions concerning the return of the Lord Jesus Christ in power and glory. Consider next the issue of the Clouds and the Return of Jesus Christ.
The Clouds and The Return of Jesus Christ
The 24th Chapter of Matthew is commonly agreed by both dispensational and covenant theologians to refers to the second-coming of Jesus Christ, not a pretribulation rapture of the Church. The passage of interest is as follows:
Matthew 24:25-31, KJV
25 Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you,
26 Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Verse 27 obviously rules this Second Coming as a secret Rapture. Notice that the coming of Jesus Christ is in the clouds of heaven.
In a second passage associated by the dispensationalist with the Rapture of the Church we see again reference to clouds, as follows:
1 Thessalonians 4:16,17, KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The Apostle John, writing in the Book of Revelation, also associates clouds with the visible return of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 1:7,8, KJV
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Notice that this is obviously a visible return for the text states that every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him. Now obviously if every eye shall see Him this coming must be associated with a general resurrection, a resurrection of both the saved and the lost, as Jesus Christ confirms in John 5:28, 29. This passage, therefore, rules out a millennial reign since one could not logically argue that Jesus Christ after reigning on earth for 1000 years will stage a third appearance with the clouds. Of course the dispensationalists cannot be accused of having a logical theology.
The same Greek word is used for cloud in the passage from Matthew, 1st Thessalonians, and Revelation. The Greek word for cloud appears and is translated cloud 26 times in the New Testament. Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon indicated that the word is used of the cloud which led the Israelites in the wilderness, the shekinah glory of God’s presence. The appearing related in 1st Thessalonians can hardly be referred to as a secret rapture if accompanied by the glory of God’s presence and the trumpet of God. Obviously these passages of Scripture are referring to the same event.
As noted earlier the dispensational system of interpretation teaches that there are two appearances of Jesus Christ in relation to the Second-Coming of Jesus Christ: first, a coming for the Church, the secret Rapture, and second, a coming with the Church, at which time the millennial kingdom will be established. The Bible does use three different words in describing the return of Jesus Christ, parousia [presence], apokalypsis [revelation], and epiphaneia [appearance]. Dispensationalists claim to be able to distinguish between these Biblical descriptions of the second-coming. There are several passages of Scripture assigned by the dispensationalist to either the first or second event that raise questions on comparison. However, Hoekema in the Bible and The Future shows [pages 165-6] that their usage provides no basis for establishing a two event second-coming. Perhaps even more convincing is a proper interpretation of the Biblical prophecies and descriptions concerning the return of the Lord Jesus Christ in power and glory. Consider next the issue of the Clouds and the Return of Jesus Christ.
The Clouds and The Return of Jesus Christ
The 24th Chapter of Matthew is commonly agreed by both dispensational and covenant theologians to refers to the second-coming of Jesus Christ, not a pretribulation rapture of the Church. The passage of interest is as follows:
Matthew 24:25-31, KJV
25 Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you,
26 Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Verse 27 obviously rules this Second Coming as a secret Rapture. Notice that the coming of Jesus Christ is in the clouds of heaven.
In a second passage associated by the dispensationalist with the Rapture of the Church we see again reference to clouds, as follows:
1 Thessalonians 4:16,17, KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The Apostle John, writing in the Book of Revelation, also associates clouds with the visible return of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 1:7,8, KJV
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Notice that this is obviously a visible return for the text states that every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him. Now obviously if every eye shall see Him this coming must be associated with a general resurrection, a resurrection of both the saved and the lost, as Jesus Christ confirms in John 5:28, 29. This passage, therefore, rules out a millennial reign since one could not logically argue that Jesus Christ after reigning on earth for 1000 years will stage a third appearance with the clouds. Of course the dispensationalists cannot be accused of having a logical theology.
The same Greek word is used for cloud in the passage from Matthew, 1st Thessalonians, and Revelation. The Greek word for cloud appears and is translated cloud 26 times in the New Testament. Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon indicated that the word is used of the cloud which led the Israelites in the wilderness, the shekinah glory of God’s presence. The appearing related in 1st Thessalonians can hardly be referred to as a secret rapture if accompanied by the glory of God’s presence and the trumpet of God. Obviously these passages of Scripture are referring to the same event.
Is. 26:20, Rev. 3:10
Noah and his family was spared the flood.
Lot and his family was spared the judgment on Sodom.
Back to the thought: "As in the days of Noah." How ridiculous was it for the men and women of that time to even consider that there will be a flood coming, which is the the judgement of God?
The Church, you included, rather you like it or not, will be spared this time of judgment. That it is a time of judgment-by God-is one of the things that you can't seem to grasp.
Okay, so it is that Jesus, nor any of the apostles did not spell it out for you,
"There will be a coming seven year period of God's judgment on the earth, but the Church will be removed before that happens."
No where in the Bible is the word "trinity" found.
No where is it spelled out for us:
"There is one God, manifested in three persons."
No, we come to the conclusion, based on the Scriptures, that this is the only viable explanation. Not only that, but it is regarded as a key doctrine.
If you had only the Old Testament, how many times is it mentioned that the dead will rise?
Other than an obscure reference by David, when his infant son died: "I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me," There is only one (That I know of, if others know of any please correct me)and that is found in Daniel. The scant mentioning of the resurrection up to the New Testament was no excuse not to believe it.
Pre-millennialism is the best fit for all Scriptures that pertain to eschatology.
Okay, the comment "rather you like it or not", was tongue-in-cheek. But it is true, that I do not doubt the salvation of a-mill's for one moment, we are brothers; and I certainly hope that we are regarded in the same way. I have been concerned about the tone of the discussions here, so perhaps it is better to say "rather you believe it or not."
You are in for a pleasant surprise.
trailblazer
New Member
Originally posted by trailblazer:
WATCHMAN,
Could you elaborate just a tad on those 31 verses? Because I still have yet to see a verse that says that there is a rapture anywhere in Matthew 24, Luke 17 or Revelation 7 so could you tell me which verse in those books has it?
Uh, Watchman, you mention Matthew 24, Luke 17 or Revelation 7 somewhere in your last post?????
WATCHMAN,
Could you elaborate just a tad on those 31 verses? Because I still have yet to see a verse that says that there is a rapture anywhere in Matthew 24, Luke 17 or Revelation 7 so could you tell me which verse in those books has it?
Uh, Watchman, you mention Matthew 24, Luke 17 or Revelation 7 somewhere in your last post?????
Daniel David
New Member
Trailblazer, you can run, but you aren't hiding.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Let us see, what does Revelation 4:1 tell us?
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
For those who are not familiar with Revelation the first "I" is the Apostle John . The second "I" is the Apostle John. The first "me" is the Apostle John. The third "I" is the one who is going to show John certain things.
Now perhaps we should look at verse 4:2:
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Behold I show you a mystery! The Apostle John states that he is in the Spirit, and the Church gets "Raptured". But wait, that was 1900+ years ago!!!!!!!!!
: What is going on here????????? OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Anomalies in the Two Event Second Coming [continued]
As noted on two prior occasions the dispensational system of interpretation teaches that there are two appearances of Jesus Christ in relation to the Second-Coming of Jesus Christ: first, a coming for the Church, the secret Rapture, and second, a coming with the Church, at which time the millennial kingdom will be established. The Bible does use three different words in describing the return of Jesus Christ, parousia [presence], apokalypsis [revelation], and epiphaneia [appearance]. Dispensationalists claim to be able to distinguish between these Biblical descriptions of the second-coming. There are several passages of Scripture assigned by the dispensationalist to either the first or second event that raise questions on comparison. However, Hoekema in the Bible and The Future shows [pages 165-6] that their usage provides no basis for establishing a two event second-coming. Perhaps even more convincing is a proper interpretation of the Biblical prophecies and descriptions concerning the return of the Lord Jesus Christ in power and glory. Consider next the Apostle Peter’s Prophecy of The Day of The LORD.
The Apostle Peter’s Prophecy of The Day of The LORD
The Apostle Peter in his second letter to the Church, apparently aware of his approaching martyrdom [2 Peter 1:12-14] warns the Saints against false teachers and those who would cast doubt on the return of the Lord Jesus Christ, and briefly pictures God’s intervention as He brings history to its close.
2 Peter 3:1-13, KJV
1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in [both] which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Although Peter’s prophecy is apocalyptic in that he is describing the direct intervention of God in history yet the language is straightforward and lends itself to literal interpretation. We will now examine this prophecy and show that, even if understood literally, it does not conflict with the general resurrection taught in John 5:28, 29. In fact it supports that interpretation of John 5:28, 29. If we are to properly interpret this prophecy we must keep in mind several facts:
1. Peter is writing to the Saints, the ‘true believers’ in Jesus Christ. He is obviously writing to the Church if one will take time to read 2 Peter 1:1.
2. These Saints, these ‘true believers’, who constitute the Church, are living in a world that is also inhabited by ‘scoffers’, that is by unbelievers.
3. Peter reminds the Saints, the Church, of the worldwide flood of the days of Noah: that by the word of God the the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.
4. Peter further reminds the Saints, the Church, that: the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
5. Peter writes, that knowing all this, we as ‘true believers’, who constitute the Church, should live godly lives.
6. Peter further writes that: The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
7. We then as 'true believers' should look for the coming of the day of God and for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
The question that must be answered if we are to understand this prophecy of Peter is: At what period of time in history is Peter making reference? At what period of time are these true believers living?
1. Peter tells us that there are scoffers present who will question the return of Jesus Christ claiming that nothing has changed since the beginning of creation. Obviously the time period cannot be during the dispensationalist seven year period of tribulation since great changes would have taken place. Millions of Christians would have suddenly disappeared and Peter's warning would be meaningless. Also the earth would be going through the throes of tribulation pictured in Revelation.
2. Furthermore, the time period cannot be during the millennial reign since the Saints are warned that: The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. Yet, if it is during the millennium, the Lord Jesus Christ is already reigning on earth in the full glory and power of the Godhead.
3. Also the Saints are told to look for the coming of the day of God and for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Yet the millennium kingdom is supposedly a time when righteousness will prevail throughout the earth as Jesus Christ rules with a rod of iron.
4. Therefore, the time period about which Peter is speaking is neither the ‘seven year tribulation period’ or the ‘millennial kingdom’ and can only refer to the time before that great and glorious Day when the Last Trumpet shall sound and the Son of man shall come in Power and Great Glory [Matthew 25:31]. It is that time when all that are in the graves shall come forth [John 5:28, 29] and the sea and death and hell shall give up their dead [Revelation 20:13]. It is that time when all mankind shall appear before the Great White Throne where sits the Son of man, the risen Saviour in all His Glory, the Glory of the Triune Godhead, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away [Revelation 20:11]. There the Glorified Saviour will separate His sheep, those chosen in Him from the foundation of the world by God the Father [Ephesians 1:4] who have been redeemed through His shed blood, from the goats, those who have rejected His gracious offer of salvation who love darkness rather than light [John 3:19: John 5:40].
Matthew 25:33,34,41, KJV
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
There can be no question but that the prophecy of the Apostle Peter is referring to a single event Second-Coming. Any other interpretation simply denies the facts plainly set forth.
As noted on two prior occasions the dispensational system of interpretation teaches that there are two appearances of Jesus Christ in relation to the Second-Coming of Jesus Christ: first, a coming for the Church, the secret Rapture, and second, a coming with the Church, at which time the millennial kingdom will be established. The Bible does use three different words in describing the return of Jesus Christ, parousia [presence], apokalypsis [revelation], and epiphaneia [appearance]. Dispensationalists claim to be able to distinguish between these Biblical descriptions of the second-coming. There are several passages of Scripture assigned by the dispensationalist to either the first or second event that raise questions on comparison. However, Hoekema in the Bible and The Future shows [pages 165-6] that their usage provides no basis for establishing a two event second-coming. Perhaps even more convincing is a proper interpretation of the Biblical prophecies and descriptions concerning the return of the Lord Jesus Christ in power and glory. Consider next the Apostle Peter’s Prophecy of The Day of The LORD.
The Apostle Peter’s Prophecy of The Day of The LORD
The Apostle Peter in his second letter to the Church, apparently aware of his approaching martyrdom [2 Peter 1:12-14] warns the Saints against false teachers and those who would cast doubt on the return of the Lord Jesus Christ, and briefly pictures God’s intervention as He brings history to its close.
2 Peter 3:1-13, KJV
1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in [both] which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Although Peter’s prophecy is apocalyptic in that he is describing the direct intervention of God in history yet the language is straightforward and lends itself to literal interpretation. We will now examine this prophecy and show that, even if understood literally, it does not conflict with the general resurrection taught in John 5:28, 29. In fact it supports that interpretation of John 5:28, 29. If we are to properly interpret this prophecy we must keep in mind several facts:
1. Peter is writing to the Saints, the ‘true believers’ in Jesus Christ. He is obviously writing to the Church if one will take time to read 2 Peter 1:1.
2. These Saints, these ‘true believers’, who constitute the Church, are living in a world that is also inhabited by ‘scoffers’, that is by unbelievers.
3. Peter reminds the Saints, the Church, of the worldwide flood of the days of Noah: that by the word of God the the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.
4. Peter further reminds the Saints, the Church, that: the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
5. Peter writes, that knowing all this, we as ‘true believers’, who constitute the Church, should live godly lives.
6. Peter further writes that: The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
7. We then as 'true believers' should look for the coming of the day of God and for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
The question that must be answered if we are to understand this prophecy of Peter is: At what period of time in history is Peter making reference? At what period of time are these true believers living?
1. Peter tells us that there are scoffers present who will question the return of Jesus Christ claiming that nothing has changed since the beginning of creation. Obviously the time period cannot be during the dispensationalist seven year period of tribulation since great changes would have taken place. Millions of Christians would have suddenly disappeared and Peter's warning would be meaningless. Also the earth would be going through the throes of tribulation pictured in Revelation.
2. Furthermore, the time period cannot be during the millennial reign since the Saints are warned that: The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. Yet, if it is during the millennium, the Lord Jesus Christ is already reigning on earth in the full glory and power of the Godhead.
3. Also the Saints are told to look for the coming of the day of God and for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Yet the millennium kingdom is supposedly a time when righteousness will prevail throughout the earth as Jesus Christ rules with a rod of iron.
4. Therefore, the time period about which Peter is speaking is neither the ‘seven year tribulation period’ or the ‘millennial kingdom’ and can only refer to the time before that great and glorious Day when the Last Trumpet shall sound and the Son of man shall come in Power and Great Glory [Matthew 25:31]. It is that time when all that are in the graves shall come forth [John 5:28, 29] and the sea and death and hell shall give up their dead [Revelation 20:13]. It is that time when all mankind shall appear before the Great White Throne where sits the Son of man, the risen Saviour in all His Glory, the Glory of the Triune Godhead, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away [Revelation 20:11]. There the Glorified Saviour will separate His sheep, those chosen in Him from the foundation of the world by God the Father [Ephesians 1:4] who have been redeemed through His shed blood, from the goats, those who have rejected His gracious offer of salvation who love darkness rather than light [John 3:19: John 5:40].
Matthew 25:33,34,41, KJV
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
There can be no question but that the prophecy of the Apostle Peter is referring to a single event Second-Coming. Any other interpretation simply denies the facts plainly set forth.