A Model for God's Knowledge

Proverbs 16:9 9 The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps.

 

In Rev 7 we see that the Angels of God hold back the 4 winds of global war and strife during this period - this sealing time of the saints of God.

"Free will" does not mean the freedom to live and choose without God in the universe.

"Free Will" within the context of sin and suffering is simply limited to the choice of good or evil. And "how effective" one's evil choice is -- is in the hands of God!

This can be seen in the case of Haman in the story of Ester. He was certainly "choosing as much evil as possible" for the Jews. But God's overriding providence worked for God. This does NOT mean that Haman was forced to stop hating the Jews or working for their destruction.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I am not sure that "choosing to CHANGE YOUR WANT" is the issue at all.

In the Garden of Gethsemane Christ plainly declared that He WANTED out! HE also pointed to a "higher" goal/value which is that He WANTED to be submissive to the Father's Will.

Those two WANTS were in conflict.

This happens with the lost every time they are confronted with the gospel that calls them to LIVE and not die. They WANT TO LIVE! But they also WANT to live for SELF! They have conflicting wants/goals/values.

To LIVE forever one must choost to DIE to self and surrender to Christ. ALL want to live forever - but some consider that the SHORT TERM want is of greater value than the long term want.

College freshmen all WANT to have a 4.0 and a glorious future - they all ALSO WANT to have fun in college - with friends and events and partys etc. Their WANTS are in conflict and in trying to balance them some get a high GPA and some drop out with all points represented in between.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hello David Ekstrom (and others)

Sometimes it takes a little back and forth to understand how everyone is using terms like "free will", etc. I am still a little confused about what position you are taking. To clarify my position, I will say the following:

1. I use the term "free will" pretty much in the common sense use - an agent has free will to the extent that he has the power (and exercizes it) to be the one and only determining force in respect to selecting among several options in respect to "what he will do next". The options may be limited, but there are indeed more than 1.

2. I used to think that God's perfect foreknowledge takes away my free will. I now believe there is no incompatibility here.

3. I do think there is a problem reconciling "hardcore" divine sovereignty with human free will. By "hardcore" divine sovereignty, I refer to the notion that all decisions, by an agent, are essentially "made by God" - thereby, I assert, clearly taking away that agent's free will.

4. I have a response to your concern about God "having to play catch-up" (or words to that effect). I submit that the notion of human free will can be saved if we come to understand that God's sovereignty is not to be interpreted in the most obvious way - that God "fixes" all events. Perhaps we can be true to the Biblical picture of divine sovereignty if we construe God's "control" to be carried out at a "goal level" - God wants to accomplish purpose "x" and it will indeed be achieved no matter what free will choices human make. Is such a view reasonable? Well, I suppose that it depends on "how many cards" God holds - to what extent He can "rearrange" things to accomodate all conceivable combinations of human free will actions and still accomplish His purposes. I submit that this is an incredibly complex "system" problem, but my intuition suggests that God indeed can work things out to ensure his goals are achieved despite human free will. In this regard, I would point out that while I believe in the existence of human free will, I think it is actually a lot weaker than we generally suppose - my set of realistically available options is a lot smaller than I think.

 

Please read "The Freedom of the Will by Jonathan Edwards". It is a GREAT work and would edify everyone here.

 

Norman Geisler deals with all of these subjects extensively in his recently-published Systematic Theology. I highly recommend it.

1.
Anything in time changes (re: before and after)
God does not change
Hence, God is not in time.

2.
Anything in time has a beginning
God had no beginning
Hence, God is not in time.

3.
Anything in time is subject to time.
Anything subject to time is limited by the speed of light (Einstein).
Anything in time can't think or know faster than the speed of light.
But God knows all things.
Hence, God is not subject to time.


4.
Anything in time is subject to limitation (time).
God is unlimited.
Hence, God is not subject to time.

5.
If God is in time, then He changes (before/after)
Anything in time has matter (Einstein)
Anything in time has a beginning
Anything with a beginning is running down (2nd Law of thermo)
Hence, if God is in time, then He is made of matter, has a beginning, is running down, and can't think faster than the speed of light.
Hence, God is not in time.


There is much more of this. Saying God is in time creates many problems.

Further, for an eternal being to know something in time is not a conflict. Therefore, God can know future free acts, and there is no conflict.

 

Hello Humblesmith nice to meet you.

Saying God is not in time creates many problems and is a fantasy imagined out of scripture.

Anything in time changes (re: before and after) Jesus is a man and is in time as man. God does not change
Hence, God is not in time. A false conclusion.

Anything in time has a beginning Jesus had a beginning and Jesus is God. God had no beginning Hence, God is not in time. But it is our perception of an attribute of God that we witness not how God's being is affected by it we cannot know. We do know that the scipture is silent on time. It is not mentioned as part of the creation.
The past must be past to God as it is to us otherwise Jesus is still on the cross.

Anything in time is subject to time. Only according to some. I'm sure Jesus was not subject to anything as He is Lord of Lords and King of Kings and is Sovereign.
Anything subject to time is limited by the speed of light (Einstein). Einstein was a very great brain but he does not take the place of scripture. Everything concocted about God and time is mere imagination. It is wild speculation but my belief is not wild but is natural normal way of looking at time and without information to the contrary from scripture we should not go into sci-fi.

Anything in time is subject to limitation (time). Jesus is not limited by anything. He is Sovereign.

If God is in time, then He changes (before/after) Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

There is much more of this. Saying God is in time creates many problems. Tell me, if there is much more is any of it to do with Jesus?
I do not know who Norman Geisler is but I wonder what he thinks systematic theology has to be doing with time? Theology has to do with the study of God as He has revealed Himself in scripture and He revealed nothing extraordinary about time why does he speculate? Is he an Arminian?


john.

 

Interesting. Scripture is silent on time?
Also an interesting statement about God and time. It refutes itself, though.

Jesus had two natures, God is not limited...this is theology.

 

Hello Humblesmith.

Is Jesus God or not? Has He a Human nature as God?

As long as we agree on that then. If it refutes itself because scripture is silent then you agree that it is silent.

Is Norman an Arminian then?

john.

 

My friend:

I enjoy the discussion with you. I'm always interested in learning more, and I'm open to correction if I am wrong, which I have been frequently. However, these are essential issues, far more important than the typical Calvinist/Arminian debates.

Time: There are hundreds of quotes in the scriptures about time. Do a simple search on eternal, everlasting, beginning, end, ages, forever, etc.
Dan. 2:21: "It is He who changes the times and epochs..."
1 Cor 2.7: "...God destined for our glory before time began..."

Christ: That Christ has two natures, both divine and human, is an essential of the faith, and is taught in scripture and throughout church history. See 1 Tim. 2:5, and The Council of Chalcedon.

God: That God is infinite, not limited, outside of creation, all-knowing, and not changing has been universally affirmed, as far as I've been able to determine, by every teacher in church history (until the last generation or two, when some have begun to deny it.)

Geisler: (this is irrelevant, but OK, if I must.) Geisler denies arminianism, and claims calvinism. He affirms total depravity, that God chooses from His will, not based on foreknowledge, and that we are secure in God. But as usual, it's more complicated that that, and I encourage you to read anything he's written for yourself.

My friend, I generally do not get sucked into arguments on these boards, so I will not continue in debate. But respectfully, I must say that essential doctrine includes:
the dual nature of Christ (divine and human)
God is not limited (such as by time)
God is all-knowing (including the future)
God is soveriegn and all powerful (over everthing)

These are all essentials. Those who deny them teach heresy. I urge you to investigate this carefully before you let the common calvinist/arminian issues get in the way.

With love and respect

Humblesmith

 

Ok Humblesmith but I leave my response as I wrote it not expecting a reply.

I see no difference between Christianity and Calvinism. I think it a serious error of some that they believe Calvinists are members of the same party. 2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Thank you for the advise. I don't know why you think eternal has to do with no time as it is of infinite duration is it not? Everlasting also is a measure of time that does not end etc.
Dan. 2:21: "It is He who changes the times and epochs..."
What bible you using?
Dan. 2:21 He changes times and seasons; he sets up kings and deposes them. (NIV)
What's that got to do with anything?

1 Cor 2.7: "...God destined for our glory before time began..." This gave me a wobble when I first read it!
Ok there is a conflict with the scriptures. The KJV has 'which God ordained before the world unto our glory' not 'before time'. It needs sorting.

That Christ has two natures, 'both divine' means that He is in time at least. And Norman Geisler says 'Anything in time is subject to time.' And I said that Jesus is Sovereign and is not subject to anything. What do you say? Are you saying that the Human nature of Christ is not God?

I don't think I'm impressed with his speculation and lack of Jesus.

Why you write this is beyond me. I have said nothing to bring these things into disrepute? Why did you write this?

john.

 

Norm Geisler is an synergist.
A much better read to understand his views is "The Potters Freedom" by James White. Norm deals with (I think dishonestly to the scriptures) with predestination and election.

 

Hello rc.

Thanks man. Seemed to me that the bit of his systematic theology that I saw above lacked a certain amount of scripture!

I have Bekoff and all the old 'free' Puritan stuff on the web so I don't buy books.

Having fun?

john.

 

Have you been to monergism.com? Or apuritanmind.com ? Great sites.

James Whites' site aomin.org is AWESOME and has his radio shows on there that you can listen to.

He has quite a bit on Norm G. and Dave Hunt (what a joke he is) on there also.