A modest proposition

Definitely an interesting idea. I don't know that it would solve the problem, but it's a thought.

I'm with Whetstone that we do need to be unified in certain areas, with soteriology being something secondary. After all, what is our primary goal/requirement?

Ecclesiastes 12:13
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his
commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."

I don't want to suggest that Arminians are differing from Whetstone here just because he is Calvinist, but why is it really?
Or maybe I ought to ask why I am agreeing with him. lol. It may very well have something to do with our age (22-23) I suppose. Maybe we're still just young and naive. Heh

 

correct. A house divided against itself cannot stand. our contentions should not be with each other but with those who we are commanded to reach. </font>[/QUOTE]We agree, However Calvinism and Arminianism are divisors among the bretheren! The only way for us to become united is to abandon both of these belief systems completely!

But then, look at all the fun we'd miss out on

 

A rose by any other name smells just the same ... unfortunately. People who are given to arguing will do it no matter the name.

 

I'm not evading your words and scripture - I agree we should be less antagonistic towards each other and more kind and patient.

I have read much already. I have seen countless claims that Calvinism isn't fatalist - yet what I have not seen is a good explanation of how that is true. If God is sovereign to the extent that ones choice of salvation is inescapable, isn't he sovereign to the extent that all choices are inescapable?

 

An excellent book to read on the subject is THE DEBATE STRATEGIES OF JESUS CHRIST
The Methods and Strategies Used by Christ for a Persuasive
Presentation and Defense of the Truth
by David P. Jesse 2002
It is available in electronic form from http://ageslibrary.com/


Matthew 9:14-15, 14 Then the disciples of John came to Him, asking, "Why do we and the Pharisees fast, but Your disciples do not fast?" 15 And Jesus said to them, "The attendants of the bridegroom cannot mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them, can they? But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast.

Matthew 11:4-9, 4 Jesus answered and said to them, "Go and report to John what you hear and see: 5 the blind receive sight and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. 6 "And blessed is he who does not take offense at Me." 7 As these men were going away, Jesus began to speak to the crowds about John, "What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? 8 "But what did you go out to see? A man dressed in soft clothing? Those who wear soft clothing are in kings' palaces! 9 "But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and one who is more than a prophet.

Matthew 12:1-12, :1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, "Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath." 3 But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions, 4 how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone? 5 "Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent? 6 "But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 "But if you had known what this means, `I desire compassion, and not a sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 "For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." 9 Departing from there, He went into their synagogue. 10 And a man was there whose hand was withered. And they questioned Jesus, asking, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?"--so that they might accuse Him. 11 And He said to them, "What man is there among you who has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 "How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep! So then, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

Matthew 15:22-28, 22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed." 23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, "Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us." 24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." 25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!" 26 And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." 27 But she said, "Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table." 28 Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.

Matthew 16:5-17, 5 And the disciples came to the other side of the sea, but they had forgotten to bring any bread. 6 And Jesus said to them, "Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." 7 They began to discuss this among themselves, saying, "He said that because we did not bring any bread." 8 But Jesus, aware of this, said, "You men of little faith, why do you discuss among yourselves that you have no bread? 9 "Do you not yet understand or remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets full you picked up? 10 "Or the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many large baskets full you picked up? 11 "How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread? But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." 12 Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees. 13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 20:20-28, 20 Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came to Jesus with her sons, bowing down and making a request of Him. 21 And He said to her, "What do you wish?" Shesaid to Him, "Command that in Your kingdom these two sons of mine may sit one on Your right and one on Your left." 22 But Jesus answered, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?" Theysaid to Him, "We are able." 23 Hesaid to them, "My cup you shall drink; but to sit on My right and on My left, this is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by My Father." 24 And hearing this, the ten became indignant with the two brothers. 25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 26 "It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, 27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

Matthew 20:32-34, 32 And Jesus stopped and called them, and said, "What do you want Me to do for you?" 33 Theysaid to Him, "Lord, we want our eyes to be opened." 34 Moved with compassion, Jesus touched their eyes; and immediately they regained their sight and followed Him.

Matthew 21:12-16, 12 And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the moneychangers and the seats of those who were selling doves. 13 And He said to them, "It is written, `My house shall be called a house of prayer'; but you are making it a robbers' den." 14 And the blind and the lame came to Him in the temple, and He healed them. 15 But when the chief priests and the scribes saw the wonderful things that He had done, and the children who were shouting in the temple, "Hosanna to the Son of David," they became indignant 16 and said to Him, "Do You hear what these children are saying?" And Jesus said to them, "Yes; have you never read, `Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babies You have prepared praise for Yourself'?"
Matthew 22:15-21, 15 Then the Pharisees went and plotted together how they might trap Him in what He said. 16 And theysent their disciples to Him, along with the Herodians, saying, "Teacher, we know that You are truthful and teach the way of God in truth, and defer to no one; for You are not partial to any. 17 "Tell us then, what do You think? Is it lawful to give a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?" 18 But Jesus perceived their malice, and said, "Why are you testing Me, you hypocrites? 19 "Show Me the coin used for the poll-tax." And they brought Him a denarius. 20 And Hesaid to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" 21 Theysaid to Him, "Caesar's." Then Hesaid to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."

Mark 3:1-4, 1 He entered again into a synagogue; and a man was there whose hand was withered. 2 They were watching Him to see if He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him. 3 He said to the man with the withered hand, "Get up and come forward!" 4 And He said to them, "Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the Sabbath, to save a life or to kill?" But they kept silent.

Mark 3:31-35, 31 Then His mother and His brothersarrived, and standing outside they sent word to Him and called Him. 32 A crowd was sitting around Him, and theysaid to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You." 33 Answering them, Hesaid, "Who are My mother and My brothers?" 34 Looking about at those who were sitting around Him, Hesaid, "Behold My mother and My brothers! 35 "For whoever does the will of God, he is My brother and sister and mother."

Mark 4:35-41, 35 On that day, when evening came, Hesaid to them, "Let us go over to the other side." 36 Leaving the crowd, theytook Him along with them in the boat, just as He was; and other boats were with Him. 37 And therearose a fierce gale of wind, and the waves were breaking over the boat so much that the boat was already filling up. 38 Jesus Himself was in the stern, asleep on the cushion; and theywoke Him andsaid to Him, "Teacher, do You not care that we are perishing?" 39 And He got up and rebuked the wind and said to the sea, "Hush, be still." And the wind died down and it became perfectly calm. 40 And He said to them, "Why are you afraid? How is it that you have no faith?" 41 They became very much afraid and said to one another, "Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey Him?"

Mark 12:18-27, 18 Some Sadducees (who say that there is no resurrection)came to Jesus, and began questioning Him, saying, 19 "Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies and leaves behind a wife and leaves no child, his brother should marry the wife and raise up children to his brother. 20 "There were seven brothers; and the first took a wife, and died leaving no children. 21 "The second one married her, and died leaving behind no children; and the third likewise; 22 and so all seven left no children. Last of all the woman died also. 23 "In the resurrection, when they rise again, which one's wife will she be? For all seven had married her." 24 Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God? 25 "For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 "But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken."

Luke 5:22-25, 22 But Jesus, aware of their reasonings, answered and said to them, "Why are you reasoning in your hearts? 23 "Which is easier, to say, `Your sins have been forgiven you,' or to say, `Get up and walk'? 24 "But, so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,"--He said to the paralytic--"I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher and go home." 25 Immediately he got up before them, and picked up what he had been lying on, and went home glorifying God.

John 8:2-11, 2 Early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people were coming to Him; and He sat down and began to teach them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court, 4 theysaid to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. 5 "Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?" 6 They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground. 7 But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court. 10 Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?" 11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."

John 8:51-59, 51 "Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death." 52 The Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, `If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.' 53 "Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?" 54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, `He is our God'; 55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." 57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

John 9:17-34, 17 So theysaid to the blind man again, "What do you say about Him, since He opened your eyes?" And he said, "He is a prophet." 18 The Jews then did not believe it of him, that he had been blind and had received sight, until they called the parents of the very one who had received his sight, 19 and questioned them, saying, "Is this your son, who you say was born blind? Then how does he now see?" 20 His parents answered them and said, "We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind; 21 but how he now sees, we do not know; or who opened his eyes, we do not know. Ask him; he is of age, he will speak for himself." 22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews; for the Jews had already agreed that if anyone confessed Him to be Christ, he was to be put out of the synagogue. 23 For this reason his parents said, "He is of age; ask him." 24 So a second time they called the man who had been blind, and said to him, "Give glory to God; we know that this man is a sinner." 25 He then answered, "Whether He is a sinner, I do not know; one thing I do know, that though I was blind, now I see." 26 So they said to him, "What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?" 27 He answered them, "I told you already and you did not listen; why do you want to hear it again? You do not want to become His disciples too, do you?" 28 They reviled him and said, "You are His disciple, but we are disciples of Moses. 29 "We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where He is from." 30 The man answered and said to them, "Well, here is an amazing thing, that you do not know where He is from, and yet He opened my eyes. 31 "We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him. 32 "Since the beginning of time it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind. 33 "If this man were not from God, He could do nothing." 34 They answered him, "You were born entirely in sins, and are you teaching us?" So they put him out.

John 9:40-41, 40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?" 41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, `We see,' your sin remains.

 

You mean like Election, where all the saved are predetermined, and man has no power to change that situation?

 

Semantics, there is no practical difference. You say that "everyone that spoke to (or betrayed) Jesus did so of their own volition" - "their own volition"??? What does that even mean to Calvinists? Are you saying they could do anything besides what God predestined "their own volition" to be in the first place?

 

Again: Semantics, there is no practical difference.

What happens if you replace "pick up a spoon" with "rape and kill a 12-year-old" in your sentence? You have just made God the author of sin, for even though "our will" is involved when we sin, "our will" could not have been any different.

 

Judas was AN ELECT of God to do exactly what Judas did. No question of that!

 

God was to blame if Judas has absolutely no alternative (as you seem to be saying), and Judas was to blame regardless.

When we sin, it is NOT because "it has to be God's ultimate will that I do it otherwise He would have somehow prevented me of doing it". God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

You seem to be saying otherwise.

 

According to John 17:12. "While I was with them, I kept those you had given me true to your name. I have watched over them and not one is lost except one who was destined to be lost, and this was to fulfil the scriptures."

You see, Judas was "AN ELECT OF GOD", chosen for God's specific purpose, to do the will of God regardless of the outcome.

That seems to be the most difficult thing for Calvinsts to understand. They read the scriptures that they believe support their doctrine while ignoring those that do not!

 

Some time ago on another thread I suggested that people not use the nickname [as Spurgeon would say] Calvinism in the discussion of the Biblical Doctrine of Grace [Election, or the Sovereignty of God in Salvation] since many people are biased against the name Calvinism. Therefore, they reject out of hand anything that they perceive to be Calvinistic.

I agree with whetstone that a name change for this Forum would be wise. The Biblical Doctrine of the Sovereignty of God in Salvation is certainly not adequately covered by the 5 points, TULIP.

I also second whetstone's request because I have read nothing actually written by Calvin but came to my beliefs concerning Salvation based on the study of Scripture.

 

Wes, Outwest

Each time I read one of your posts I am more firmly convinced that the Doctrine of Election, or the Doctrine of the Sovereignty of God in Salvation, or even Calvinism if that makes you happy, is the correct Biblical Doctrine of Salvation.

________________________

Post edited to remove a post that was quoted, and removed both in the original and in this quotation of it.

[ April 22, 2005, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

To each his own!

 

Do you find it so hard to see that because God dwell outside of time He sees all and can comment on what He knows will happen.

And Humans are so dull that they pay no attention to what He says.

Judas betrayed Christ of his own volition.

David

[ April 22, 2005, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: David Michael Harris ]

 

David,
I'd like to agree with you, but the truth of Judas, is that there was a prophesy relating to the Christ about him being betrayed by a friend.

Guess who the friend was?

Because Judas was the chosen betrayer, he too was an elect of God!