A modest proposition

you have just totally ignored what I said.

God knew Judas would betray.

David

 

Sure he did, even the Christ knew who would betray him and why!

Indeed judus could not until given his leave by the Christ!

 

When Judas betrayed Christ it was today, just as we have our today. The Bible says Satan entered into him, Jesus said, go do what your going to do quickly.

God knew. Thats how Scripture could be written and prophesied. Just because God knew does not mean God made him do it.

David

 

Judas has to be the most unfortunate man ever to have existed.

God is Righteous.

David

 

May I ask a hypothetical question. I am interested in the response.

If the Lord Jesus Christ wished to forgive Judas, could He?

David

 

I don't know, but the Christ atoned for Judas' sin!

 

The sin, Christ atoned for so Judas is not paying for his sin.

Why are you having so much difficulty with this simple principal? Are you a Crime and punishment type guy? For every crime a punishment?

Why can't you grasp the truth of the atonement? Is it because you've had your head bashed in with "if you sin you're gonna get punished?" Well so did I until it was revealed to me that Jesus paid the penalty for sin, so that I and every human being like sinful ol' me has had our sin paid for. therefore we do not die in or for our sins if we have faith in Jesus.

The better question would be, did Judas have faith in the Christ? He was with Jesus for nearly three years, did he ever put his faith in Jesus as the rest of the Apostles did?

If he had, would he have betrayed Jesus? Would you?

 

I am so relieved to know that Judas will be in heaven! I was sooooooo worried that betraying the Lord might keep him out.

Seriously though, if we have faith in Jesus our sins are forgiven, if we don't they are not forgiven us and we will suffer the penalty of them. If the unbeliever suffers the penalty for his sins ("Dies in his sins"), then by your logic the sin is paid for twice.

Why is it such a hard concept for you Wes? You are all over this board talking about how other people don't get it, but maybe you need to examine your theology and search the scripture before simply deciding someone elses point is unscriptural just because it disagrees with your pre-existing ideas.

Also, by the way, it would appear that God is a crime and punishment sort since unrepentent sinners will pay for their sins in Hell. That seems to me to be a punishment, how aobut you?

Remember, it is God that says that the wages of sin is death.

 

Who said that?

Oh wait, I know, you equate atonement with salvation. So it is natural for you to think that just because the penalty for sin has been paid, that every one who sins will be in heaven.

Where do you find that faith=forgiveness equation in the scriptures?
Everywhere I look the equation is Confession=forgiveness.

Faith in God is not forgiveness of sin! 1 john 1:8-10 it says in 9 if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. It does not say that if we have faith our sins are forgiven.

with my logic, sin is atoned once for all. when an unbeliever dies, his name is searched for in the book of life, because he has no faith in God it will not be found and he will be cast into the lake of fire for lack of faith, not for sin!

Dave, if sin is paid for, how can one be charged for sinning? Sin is not a factor in salvation, because it has been atoned. Works are not acceptable either, that leaves FAITH alone as the criteria for salvation.

Then you just negated atonement! How can you do that and remain scriptural?

Paul says the wages of sin is death, romans' 6:23.
God says his atonement for sin is life to the believer! "I come so that they might have life", Jesus.

 

This notion that God does not punish people for sins needs to be immediately done away with. It simply ins't true, and the Bible expressly says otherwise. Wes, you are the one negating the atonement through your faulty definition of it.

 

Then what did Jesus die for?

Was his death a universal atonement for Sin? OR, was his death an atonement for people?

As for "expressly says", you take Ephesians 2:8&9 quite literally and get the wrong message. I take it for its meaning. God in his grace, gives us his free gift of salvation to all who have faith in him. That free gift is not of ourselves, we do not merit it, and we cannot earn it. ALL WE CAN DO IS HAVE FAITH IN GOD! Because Jesus atoned for sin, we can have everlasting life through our faith. Sin is not a factor in our salvation! Those who lack faith are not judged by sin, they are judged by their unbelief, just as Jesus says in John 3:18b. Do they die in their sins? No they take their sins with them into the second death caused by their unbelief.

Are you serious that you cannot understand that?

 

Glad I could provide you with a little levity.

Jesus did that to his 'audiences' too!

Some people laugh at the most serious of matters.

 

It was an atonement for the sins of people. It was not a universal atonement in terms of actual payment,. YOu keep making that mistake over and over again. An atonement is not a possibility; it is an actuality. And if it includes all sins, then it must include the sin of unbelief, thereby ruining your whole position. But you, for some inexplicable reason, won't acknowledge that.

I haven't even discussed this verse. YOu don't know what meaning I get from it.

That is certainly true.

That is plainly false. Sin is the reason we need salvation. If Christ paid for all sin, then no one is lost. There is nothing to be saved from.

You again make a false dichotomy. Unbelief is sin. And they are judged for their sins as SCripture makes clear in 2 Thess 1, Rev 20:11-15, Rev 21:8, John 5:28-29, etc. There is plenty of explicit evidence that you will not acknowledge.

I understand your position very well. That is how I know it is false. I can't understand why you hold it, when God's revelation is so clear about it.

 

Unbelief is not sin, it is a condition of the human spirit! Not a deed or thought. Therefore unbelief cannot be a sin.

Likewise belief is not righteousness, it is however seen by God as righteousness as in the case of Abraham, Noah, Joseph, Daniel, etc.

The Work of the Father is that we believe. So for us to do the work of the father is for us to believe. Belief is not a work as work involves expenditure of energy. It takes no expenditure of energy to believe or to have faith! and indeed, according to Jesus, Faith in Him lightens our burden, thus reducing our work.

Jesus' Atonement is for sin, removing the penalty of sin from man! Therefore man can have everlasting life through faith in God, because the penalty for man's sin is now non existent. If that is not true then atonement is a figment of the imagination!

My post that you are quoting was in response to Dave's post, not yours, so the Ephesians reference was in response to Dave. I am glad to see that we hold the same interpretation of Ephesians 2:8&9, and that you do not believe it is Grace that saves us, but rather our faith in God.

I agree with you that Sin is the reason for the need of salvation. God's atoning for sin does not remove sin from us, it does remove the penalty of sin from us, thereby eliminating sin as a factor in our salvation. We are saved through faith alone!

 

Doesn't this verse, and it's context, speak against OSAS?

 

Hbr 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree whetstone, one of us has departed from the living God, but it is not me!

Define belief and unbelief. Show us all where the sin is in unbelief.