A modest proposition

Doesn't this verse, and it's context, speak against OSAS? </font>[/QUOTE]Yes!

 

The sin in unbelief is in the fact that God commands us to believe in his son ... it is called the obedience of faith ... Failure to obey God is always sin. How can that be any clearer?

It is grace that saves us. That is what the verse says, regardless of who you were addressing it to.

Lastly, Heb 3:12 does not speak againstthe doctrine of eternal security. The heart there is an evil heart of unbelief. That is not a description of being saved.

 

First, the warning is to the "brethren". Second, you cannot "depart" from a place you are not presently at.

 

So, lets see what the sin is.

God commanded Adam to not eat of the tree in the center of the Garden. Adam did. Now what is the sin, eating of the tree or disobeying God?

God commands us to believe in his son, if we don't what is the sin? Isn't it the same as for Adam?

Eating of the tree is not the sin, it is disobedience of God. Not doing what he commands us to do is not the sin, it is disobedience just like Adam.

Unbelief is not a sin. Disobedience is!

 

You have answered your own question. The sin was disobeying God by eating the tree. You cannot separate the two. Eating the tree was the sin because it was doing what God had commanded him not to do.

If we don't believe in Jesus, we have disobeyed God's command.

This is completely illogical. It is like saying "An apple is not a fruit; a fruit is a fruit." Think about these things. Don't keep repeating this stuff that has been shown to be wrong numerous times.

 

Yes, the presumption is that those publicaly identified with the body are brothers.

Yes indeed. If they believed they had a relationship with God, they could fall away from it. If it is a true relationship with God they cannot fall away.

Studying the context would immediately answer this question. V. 14 says For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, . Notice the tense of "have become." It is passed. It is stating a fact that holding fast is evidence of what you "have become." If you don't hold fast, then you didn't become a partaker.

Once again, most of these difficulties are seen not to be confusing if you actually read the whole text carefully and think about it.

 

So the warning was completely meaningless and moot, for both those who were saved (for they couldn't depart) as well as those who weren't (because they weren't there in the first place)?

 

Of course it isn't meaningless.

 

What meaning does it have, if it was warning one group against something that can't happen, and warning the other group about something that doesn't apply?

 

You have answered your own question. The sin was disobeying God by eating the tree. You cannot separate the two. Eating the tree was the sin because it was doing what God had commanded him not to do.

If we don't believe in Jesus, we have disobeyed God's command.

This is completely illogical. It is like saying "An apple is not a fruit; a fruit is a fruit." Think about these things. Don't keep repeating this stuff that has been shown to be wrong numerous times. </font>[/QUOTE]Not once have I been shown that what I've posted is wrong!
Here you are using the ol' he said she said argument as if it is factual. It is clear the you do not understand biblical principles. Furthermore, you are not interested in learning the truth because you have been "conditioned" to think INSIDE the box, and cannot think outside the box.

 

Larry,

What is the if in this text for? Does it mean that even after becoming partakers there is the POSSIBILITY of losing something?

Does the "HOLD FAST", mean that there is something that man is required to do? What would that be? Doesn't that go against Calvinist teaching that man must put forth some effort to realise Salvation?

 

John 8:31 (KJV) Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

The believer discovers a godly boldness and confidence, assurance, as they continue in the things of God.

2 Peter 3:18 (KJV) But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Ref: 2Pet 3:11-18

 

Of the unbelievers, that do not embrace and continue in the things of God, it is said, they have no fear of God.

Romans 3:18 (KJV) There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Ref: Rom 3.9-18

Why do you suppose one has that fear, and the other does not? Would it be their Creator has made the difference?

 

Some hear, but unless the words are mixed with faith, their is no profit.

Exodus 5:2 (KJV) And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.

Hebrews 4:2 (KJV) For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Ref: Heb 4.1-16

Why does one know the Lord, and another does not? Why does one have faith, and another does not? Why does one believe, and another does not? Why does one draw back, depart, and another does not? Is our Creator distant and indifferent?

Romans 9:17 (KJV) For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Romans 9:21 (KJV) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Ref: Rom 9.15-21

 

There's that little word "if" again, whatever could it mean?

Why would one need to "grow in grace and in the knowledge of our lord, IF there is no possibility of losing one's faith. After all, we who believe, have all of eternity grow in the knowledge, and if we are with Jesus for eternity, there is no need for grace!

OSAS is a myth!

 

Not likely, it is has more to do with the conditioning related to God and things of the spirit. If one is never taught to fear God, one will never instinctively have it. That is why we are to raise our children in the fear and admonition of the Lord, so they will not soon depart from it!

 

If you do not have faith, all the hearing in the world will not be done IN FAITH!

The hearing unto salvation is simple and clear, believe and thou shalt be saved! Saved from what? Saved from the second death. The rest is where folks like you and I have our arguments.

Is it just Possible that the Pharoah was an elect of God in the same manner that Judas was?

I think you rely entirely too much on God causing everything that happen to happens. I do not think God is that paranoid, to be a control freak! I believe he is sovereign in every way, but especially in the manner that he puts up the road signs on our pathway, that if we heed those signs we will prove victorious. If we fail to heed those signs we prove ourselves unworthy in God's eyes, and not worth saving from the second death.

Yes, the potter does have authority over the clay, No argument, however the potter is spirit, and all that is done to the clay is done in spirit. There is no physical control! We are made to be autonomous individuals.

 

Yes, you have. I have shown you in no uncertain terms that unbelief is a sin. You continue to disagree with the Bible.

No, I am not. I am using the "God said" argument. YOu disagree with God.

I have been conditioned to think inside of Scripture. I am not interested in the box. I am interested in the word of God.

 

What is the if in this text for? Does it mean that even after becoming partakers there is the POSSIBILITY of losing something?

Does the "HOLD FAST", mean that there is something that man is required to do? What would that be? Doesn't that go against Calvinist teaching that man must put forth some effort to realise Salvation? </font>[/QUOTE]Hold fast is perseverance. It is something believers do, just as much as breathing is something live people do. God is saying that you became (past tense) a partaker if you continue. If you do not persevere, it is not because you lost your partaking, but because you did not become a partaker. Partakers continue. It is not a matter of being required to do something. It is a matter of doing what believers do.

To try to make this verse say that a person can lose their salvation flies in teh face of the immediate text of Heb 3, the larger context of Hebrews, and the context of the whole Bible. It denigrates the sacrifice and saving work of Christ. It makes Christ a liar by asserting that Christ's promise to raise believers up at the last day isn't true. It is fraught with loads of exegetical problems, and the only way to believe that this text teaches you can lose your salvation is to ignore waht the text actually says.

It is an encouragement to continue in order to demonstrate the reality of your faith. In a context of Jewish believers tempted to turn away from sufficiency in Christ, God says if they turn away it is evidence of a hardened heart of unbelief, not a heart of belief that has turned away.

 

I have been conditioned to think inside of Scripture. I am not interested in the box. I am interested in the word of God. </font>[/QUOTE]John said in the end of his gospel that if everything done by the Christ were written down there would not be enough books to contain it all. All you have to go on then is a snapshot. Paul eluded to not being able to put everything in writing. So my friend, you are working from limited material by not being able to think beyond the scriptures you do have. If you confine yourself to that limited material, you are the one with the disadvantage.