A modest proposition

Nevertheless Larry, "IF" one does not persevere, for whatever reason there may be, that one loses the salvation of the promise that he WAS holding on to but let go of! Therefore, the "IF" in the text implies the possibility of losing that which you have!

OSAS is a myth! Unless you do all that is required of you to retain your faith in God!

 

And God said that in his word is everything we need for life and godliness and everything necessary for every good work. God is the one who said that. If you think you need something outside of Scripture, then you are wrong. You are contradicting God.

Wes, are you listening? Are you reading? YOu can read both me and the text and see that what you said is not true. If some one does not persevere in faith it is because they never had it. Get ahold of that and quit making these kind of statements.

So Christ was wrong? Do you really want to go there? Wes, when the Bible says something, it is not up for debate. YOu need to change your position to agree with the Bible.

 

Who are you to make such a declaration?

I'll bet you can give me at least 5 things that you used to believe in, even have faith in, that you no longer have belief or faith in. If you can do that with what you can see, feel, or touch, you can most assuredly do that with what you cannot see, feel, or touch.

Your faith in God, is faith that he will deliver on what is promised in scripture....AND RIGHTLY SO! But if you can lose faith in anything, you can likewise lose faith in God, whether you like it or not!

 

I would like to add to this: could He forgive Lucifer? Adam & Eve?

 

Who are you to make such a declaration? </font>[/QUOTE]I didn't make it. God did.

Not if it is true saving faith.

 

So in your "opinion" the critical factor in salvation is not God's grace but rather man's decision to have faith?

A genuinely saved person can no more "choose" not to have faith than a person genuinely healed from deafness can by shear force of will "choose" not to hear.

Our faith is a direct result of our changed nature... it is not the cause of our changed nature. Only God can resurrect the dead- physically or spiritually.

 

True saving faith? Describe it!
Tell us when it is effective!
Tell us where it comes from!
Tell us who can have it!
Tell us why some get it and other's don't!


Do all that so we can go round in circles again!

Convince us that you are right and we are wrong!

 

So in your "opinion" the critical factor in salvation is not God's grace but rather man's decision to have faith?

A genuinely saved person can no more "choose" not to have faith than a person genuinely healed from deafness can by shear force of will "choose" not to hear.

Our faith is a direct result of our changed nature... it is not the cause of our changed nature. Only God can resurrect the dead- physically or spiritually. </font>[/QUOTE]In my opinion? Scriptures tell us that NNE IS SAVED WITHOUT FAITH IN GOD! AND, that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

OUR changed nature is the direct result of hearing and believing! It is then that the Holy Spirit enters us and cleanses us from within. The holy spirit is not welcome in the unbelieving ones. It is only those who actually do believe!

Only God? What do you Call "the Word"? Is it not GOD's Word?

 

A genuinely willful belief in Jesus Christ as one's personal Savior based on His life, work, and person. That His sacrifice alone is sufficient to buy our pardon.

From God's perspective- from the foundation of the world when God wrote our names in the book of life. Revelations 17:8 and 13:8.

It comes as a "natural" result of the Spirit's quickening of a spiritually dead person.

Those whose names were written in the book and predestined from the foundation of the world.

God sovereignly chooses to give a new spiritual nature to some and allow others to follow their own selfish free will.

No need if you will just deal with what the Bible says. The Bible does teach that men are responsible and choose. It also teaches that God is sovereign and elects. The basic points of calvinism make up the only system I have seen that can reconcile these things adequately.

OK. Just answer any of the scriptural citations I have made that clearly shows that God has predestined and elected those who will be saved.

Remember, it says nothing about God actively preventing others from believing... they can believe any time they "want to"... which means they won't since the natural man will never understand spiritual things. The Spirit must open their blinded eyes before they can have spiritual sight.

God is no more guilty of being unfair to those who remain in spiritual darkness than Christ was guilty of the physical blindness of those He could have but didn't heal.

 

So in your "opinion" the critical factor in salvation is not God's grace but rather man's decision to have faith?

A genuinely saved person can no more "choose" not to have faith than a person genuinely healed from deafness can by shear force of will "choose" not to hear.

Our faith is a direct result of our changed nature... it is not the cause of our changed nature. Only God can resurrect the dead- physically or spiritually. </font>[/QUOTE]In my opinion? Scriptures tell us that NNE IS SAVED WITHOUT FAITH IN GOD! AND, that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. </font>[/QUOTE] Now let's dive a little more deeply into the context of the whole of scripture.

We are also told that God elects, predestines, calls, justifies, etc. and has even written the names of the redeemed down in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

Our "hearing" and believing is a direct result of our changed nature. God decreed it to be so.

God is sovereign in salvation. Only His sheep will follow the sound of His voice.

Yes. It is God's Word... but it isn't God. History is full of men who knew the Bible in an academic sense but never knew God.

 

The evidence for that is John 17, in which Jesus keeps repeating "those whom you gave me". They, the apostles were predestined for their roles, but they were not preconditioned.
Noah was predestined for his role, but he was not preconditioned.
Moses? DITTO!
Joshua? DITTO!
Joseph? DITTO!
Daniel? DITTO!
Etc., Etc., Etc.

As for the book of Life from the foundation of the world? Yes, I believe that God established such a book. I believe that names can be entered into the book, and I believe that names can be blotted from the book.

I do not believe that every name written therein from the foundation of the world was predestined to salvation from the second death. I believe that every name in the book plays a role in Gods creation. And those who do not, have their names blotted from the book, while other's who believe and receive Jesus get their names written into the book of life.

 

Our "hearing" and believing is a direct result of our changed nature. God decreed it to be so.</font>[/QUOTE]And you would declare that to the Eunuch who was reading but not understanding until God sent Philip to him.

Why couldn't God have just opened his eyes, regenerated him, to understanding? Why did God have to send a preacher to do that job?

You are putting entirely too much faith in an incomplete picture.

 

Our "hearing" and believing is a direct result of our changed nature. God decreed it to be so.</font>[/QUOTE]And you would declare that to the Eunuch who was reading but not understanding until God sent Philip to him.

Why couldn't God have just opened his eyes, regenerated him, to understanding? Why did God have to send a preacher to do that job?

You are putting entirely too much faith in an incomplete picture. </font>[/QUOTE]Because God predestined Philip to be there. If God did not want Philip involved, He would not have sent Philip to the guy.

 

The evidence for that is John 17, in which Jesus keeps repeating "those whom you gave me". They, the apostles were predestined for their roles, but they were not preconditioned.
Noah was predestined for his role, but he was not preconditioned.
Moses? DITTO!
Joshua? DITTO!
Joseph? DITTO!
Daniel? DITTO!
Etc., Etc., Etc.</font>[/QUOTE] You are arguing semantics and making no real point. Please show scriptural support for whatever you are arguing about "preconditioned".

Take a look at Rev 17:8. It directly implies that the names of the elect are written in the book from the foundation of the world while the names of the lost are not.

There is one passage that says God will NOT blot names out of the Book of Life. There are none that say He will.

The problem with so many of your responses isn't that you are disagreeing with me... it is that you are failing to reconcile what you are contending with the whole context of the Bible.

You will note that we were predestined to adoption by Jesus Christ, to Himself, according to His will... your contention that a decision by an individual is the critical element in determining who will be saved is irreconcilable with this scripture.

 

Our "hearing" and believing is a direct result of our changed nature. God decreed it to be so.</font>[/QUOTE]And you would declare that to the Eunuch who was reading but not understanding until God sent Philip to him.

Why couldn't God have just opened his eyes, regenerated him, to understanding? Why did God have to send a preacher to do that job?</font>[/QUOTE] He could have but has chosen the preaching of the gospel and the NT scriptures as the mechanism for accomplishing His divine will.

The same Paul who gave us absolute statements about God's predestination of the elect gives us much of the scripture we look to for understanding faith, atonement, sin, etc.

I would disagree. I think it is you who is failing to interpret scripture with scripture. You are drawing conclusions about certain passages that contradict others.

 

Our "hearing" and believing is a direct result of our changed nature. God decreed it to be so.</font>[/QUOTE]And you would declare that to the Eunuch who was reading but not understanding until God sent Philip to him.

Why couldn't God have just opened his eyes, regenerated him, to understanding? Why did God have to send a preacher to do that job?

You are putting entirely too much faith in an incomplete picture. </font>[/QUOTE]Because God predestined Philip to be there. If God did not want Philip involved, He would not have sent Philip to the guy. </font>[/QUOTE]But if regeneration is all that is required as many Calvinists believe, why did God not have the power to regenerate the Ethiopian?

 

Many, but not all (Especially Calvinists) would answer you that God had previously regenerated the Ethiopian.

Are there any evidences from the text to suggest this is true?

1. He was in Jerusalem to worship; certainly could be said to be among the 'jews from every nation under heaven, who perhaps no doubt heard the gospel in their own tongue".

2. He was certainly drawn to the scriptures of God, the word of God as it speaks of the suffering servant no less; imagine a lost person having such an interest.

3. It definitely perplexed him that he could obtain no satisfactory understanding of the scriptures.

Is there any conclusive proof that God had NOT previously regenerated this man? Certainly not.

A similar case is found in Acts 10 speaking of Cornelius' prayers and offerings having been accepted of God, of God sending him to call Peter and of God directing Peter to Cornelius' household.

Where do such texts declare regeneration was not prior to these events, in either the case of the Ethiopian or Cornelius?

It simply does not. To receive it as though it does forces some things on the context however that certainly are not scriptural, primarily that of baptismal regeneration.

A Debtor to Free Grace,
Bro. Dallas

 

I think you are misreading Ephesians 1. Paul opens his letter by telling the Ephesians about the Apostles and this is confirmed by looking at John 17 the prayer of Jesus in which Jesus uses much the same thoughts as those expressed by Paul. So Paul is introducing the Ephesians to the "Church Builders" that were taught by God ... God the son, that is! Paul does not bring the Ephesians into the discussion until verse 13, where he says "And you too......"