Paul would beg to differ- 2 Cor 12:9,10.
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A most unfortunate textual variant
- Thread starter stilllearning
- Start date
Paul would beg to differ- 2 Cor 12:9,10.
stilllearning
Active Member
Hello Mexdeaf
At first I posted this verse, without comment.......
Matthew 5:48
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”
Then, franklinmonroe said.........
2 Corinthians 12:9-10
V.9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
V.10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
-------------------------
Lets take a closer look at 2 Corinthians 12:9-10
“And he said unto me,”
Paul had just been praying for God to deliver him from his thorn in the flesh;
And here God responds to him!
“My grace is sufficient for thee:”
God said, Paul don’t worry about your thorn, because I am going to give you the grace to endure it.
(This form of grace, is a supernatural power God can give us.)
“for my strength is made perfect in weakness.”
I love this part......
God says, “his strength”, is made perfect in Paul’s weakness!
The weaker Paul becomes, the more the Lord can use him!!
“Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities,”
Here, Paul responds to what God had just said to him......
Now, Paul is “glad” for the thorn, because it will allow the Lord to use him even more.
Note: This thorn was given to Paul, to keep him from becoming prideful, during all the wonderful things, that God was going to use him for.
“that the power of Christ may rest upon me.”
The power of Christ will not rest on anyone, who hasn’t had their pride broken;
God won’t use us, if we are gong to take all the credit.
“Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake:”
In fact, Paul now sees the wonderful benefits of all the bad things that were happening to him.
“for when I am weak, then am I strong.”
When we are being humbled and are weak; This is the time, that the Lord can use us the most.
--------------------------
Now the point that I was making when I said.......
Sure we make mistakes; but it’s good to feel bad about them, so we will repent and forsake them.
------------------------
But the point Paul was making in 2 Corinthians 12:9-10, wasn’t about personal sin, but about rejoicing during bad times.
At first I posted this verse, without comment.......
Matthew 5:48
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”
Then, franklinmonroe said.........
To which I responded............
Then you said that Paul disagrees with me because(under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) he wrote......
2 Corinthians 12:9-10
V.9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
V.10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
-------------------------
Lets take a closer look at 2 Corinthians 12:9-10
“And he said unto me,”
Paul had just been praying for God to deliver him from his thorn in the flesh;
And here God responds to him!
“My grace is sufficient for thee:”
God said, Paul don’t worry about your thorn, because I am going to give you the grace to endure it.
(This form of grace, is a supernatural power God can give us.)
“for my strength is made perfect in weakness.”
I love this part......
God says, “his strength”, is made perfect in Paul’s weakness!
The weaker Paul becomes, the more the Lord can use him!!
“Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities,”
Here, Paul responds to what God had just said to him......
Now, Paul is “glad” for the thorn, because it will allow the Lord to use him even more.
Note: This thorn was given to Paul, to keep him from becoming prideful, during all the wonderful things, that God was going to use him for.
“that the power of Christ may rest upon me.”
The power of Christ will not rest on anyone, who hasn’t had their pride broken;
God won’t use us, if we are gong to take all the credit.
“Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake:”
In fact, Paul now sees the wonderful benefits of all the bad things that were happening to him.
“for when I am weak, then am I strong.”
When we are being humbled and are weak; This is the time, that the Lord can use us the most.
--------------------------
Now the point that I was making when I said.......
Was that it is dangerous to dwell on the fact that “Nobodies perfect”, because it will cause us to excuse our own sins, too easily.
Sure we make mistakes; but it’s good to feel bad about them, so we will repent and forsake them.
------------------------
But the point Paul was making in 2 Corinthians 12:9-10, wasn’t about personal sin, but about rejoicing during bad times.
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
So, back to the OP - do we cease being disciples when we 'make mistakes?'
stilllearning
Active Member
Hello C4K
I have been resisting answering this question, but you are being so persistent, that you have forced me to respond.
You asked......
In the same way, that when we are filled with the Spirit, we won’t stay that way for the rest of our lives(like the Charismatics teach);
But we will need to draw nigh to God and be “refilled”.
------------------------
If my understanding of what being a disciple is, is sound;
[That it is a state of total commitment to Christ(sitting at His feet listening to every word that comes/came out of His mouth).]
Then.....those times that a Christian becomes lazy or is drawn away from the Lord’s side by the flesh, etc.
They are no longer disciples.
--------------------------
But as quickly as we see the error of our ways, and return to a close walk with the Lord, than we are once again, a disciple.
I have been resisting answering this question, but you are being so persistent, that you have forced me to respond.
You asked......
Well, “if” my premise is sound and discipleship is indeed conditional, than yes.
In the same way, that when we are filled with the Spirit, we won’t stay that way for the rest of our lives(like the Charismatics teach);
But we will need to draw nigh to God and be “refilled”.
------------------------
If my understanding of what being a disciple is, is sound;
[That it is a state of total commitment to Christ(sitting at His feet listening to every word that comes/came out of His mouth).]
Then.....those times that a Christian becomes lazy or is drawn away from the Lord’s side by the flesh, etc.
They are no longer disciples.
--------------------------
But as quickly as we see the error of our ways, and return to a close walk with the Lord, than we are once again, a disciple.
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
I would contend that Martha when she was serving, Peter when he denied Christ, and you and I when we sin are still disiples, that is why we are descipled. While we may have to 'sit in the corner' we are not kicked out of the Master's classroom.
Very well- however there are no perfect, sinless disciples. And we ARE disciples whether we sin or not, contrary to what you seem to be teaching.
A disciple is a follower, whether perfectly following or not. A disciple of Christ will always be a disciple of Christ, though he(the disciple) will not be perfect. Peter was a disciple, though he denied Christ 3 times. The bible never said he stopped being a disciple.
What you are doing is creating your own definition of a word as to make an attempt to vilify modern versions.
Here's the entire passage of Scripture.
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
(Matthew 28:19-20) NASB
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world."
(Matthew 28:19-20)
What are you supposed to be "teaching"? It's to observer all things that Jesus commanded...aka...be disciples. So even the KJV has this in its text as well.
Good & sound post....:thumbs:
stilllearning
Active Member
This neither a good nor a sound post, because it is dishonest.
You are twisting the OP and the intent of this thread, into saying something that it isn’t saying.
You said..........
You(and a handful of others), are the ONLY ONES who are making this a “version issue”.
I am talking about the doctrine of “conditional discipleship”, based on these Scriptures.......
Luke 14:26,27
V.26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
V.27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:33
So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
John 15:7-8
V.7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
V.8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
------------------------
Now if these scriptures do not teach “conditional discipleship”, please explain to me how they don't.
Yes, you have made this a version issue from your very first post.
What was translated in "the last hundred years or so"? Modern versions of course. But you knew that.
The "false teaching" that you are claiming came straight from....yes, modern versions of the last hundred years.
So you are definitely saying that the modern versions contain false teachings. And I'm not even a rocket scientist, but even I can see that.
Apparently the question posed for this thread is whether or not, all those who are "saved" are by the condition of being saved, also made disciples. The answer is no. Being saved, in the sense of its use here, is the idea of God putting a person spiritually in Christ based on crediting their faith in Christ as righteousness. In order for a person to come to a position of faith sufficient for God to credit it, they would have to believe in the God of the Bible, and be looking for the Messiah, the Christ, the Redeemer, and they would have to trust in the good news of the gospel that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God. So some level of instruction over time would be required. But this does not "make a disciple."
Before we go too far, lets think about the "disciples" that turned away from Jesus, who Jesus knew from the beginning did not actually trust in Jesus. So someone being instructed is a disciple, but only a "born again believer" who is also being instructed is actually a disciple of Christ.
So when scripture says making disciples of all nations, it refers to three separate but related activities, (1) our cultivating, planting and watering which results in some being born again. This we could say results in someone is ready to be discipled, ready to learn from God's word. But what if the person is not discipled, what if they are not connected to a body of believers who teach by word and example how to become "Christ-like" and also how to train others to become Christ-like. Whoever presented the gospel message and heard their profession of faith failed them by not "making them disciples."
So in the New Testament, when we see the terms used interchangeably, we see the "assumption" that each and every new believer was being discipled.
The second (2) related activity is to train the professing new Christian to become Christ-like. Naturally, if the professing Christian is not actually born again, these "disciples" will fall away when they are asked to become partakers in the suffering of Christ. For example, humility requires a person receive stuff from others. It might be beneficial or ill advised, but we take it in and do not return fire. Only someone who loves Christ more than himself has a shot at mirroring the humility of Christ. But our job is to train and provide examples from our walk, as flawed as it may be, such that we pass the walk of Christ on to those we help disciple.
Then the last, the third (3) related activity is to train disciples to serve Christ. It is one thing to sit in our pews and mumble "amens" and grow in knowledge and work on our character, and another it put our life on the line for the lost. But Matthew wrote, for He was a scribe, this to each of us: Therefore every "scribe" who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like a head of a household, who brings out of his treasure things new and old. What we take in, as we are discipled, we are to pass on as treasure. And it will cost us everything, but as disciples of Christ we do not hang back, but seek to share in the suffering of Christ.
Oh, the irony!
Please don't ever again tell me I'm dishonest. You put this in the Bible version thread. That ALONE makes it a version issue. Secondly, let me remind you of your own words:
- emphasis mine
so, it looks like I was again right about you making it a version issue. Please don't ever tell anyone that they are being dishonest. You have very much made this a version issue.
None of these were mentioned in your OP. You didn't even title the OP as "conditional discipleship." If that is what you wanted to discuss, then you shouldn't have spoken of a translational variant where translators "over the last hundred years or so, men have decided to start translating this word in Matthew 28:19, to..........“make disciples”"
And those passages mean exactly what they say, but this has nothing at all to do with the OP nor the verse mentioned in the OP.
Can I just say "AMEN" to this? It's apparent the OP has an agenda.
