Puh-leze, spare me the drama and spurious accusations. The bottom line is you're unable to defend your doctrine from scripture so you resort to this juvenile ad hominem.
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A non-Calvinistic & non-Arminian interpretation of Romans 3:10-18
- Thread starter George Antonios
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- romans 3
Puh-leze, spare me the drama and spurious accusations. The bottom line is you're unable to defend your doctrine from scripture so you resort to this juvenile ad hominem.
Ephesians 2:8-9. 'For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.'
If salvation is by grace (and now you need to look at Romans 4:4-5 and maybe John 6:28-29) through faith and not by works, then how can it be by works?
Reconciling James 2:14ff with Paul's theology is not difficult and was done centuries ago. However, if you have problems with this, I will be happy to explain it to you.
But @AustinC is right; you are attempting to throw the Reformation under a bus.
The bottom line is you have abandoned justification by faith alone, taught by the Apostle Paul in Romans. You have abandoned the Reformation. You have joined hands with Rome and the Council of Trent.
This is fact and you cannot deny it.
What Ephesians 2:8 says:
8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith...
What Ephesians 2:8 does NOT say:
8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith alone...
No, I epitomize the very spirit of the Reformation by adhering to it's very basic founding principle by exercising my Right To Private Judgement as espoused by one of my favorite reformers, Charles Hodge:
"The Bible is a plain book. It is intelligible by the people. And they have the right, and are bound to read and interpret it for themselves; so that their faith may rest on the testimony of the Scriptures, and not on that of the Church. Such is the doctrine of Protestants on this subject...."
You on the other hand, along with several others like you, epitomize the spirit of the Pharisees by thoughtlessly parroting as doctrine the precepts of men. The Reformers erred. They went too far with 'justification by faith alone'.
I present the very same challenge to you Martin:
"I challenge you. Produce just ONE statement from the scriptures that says that justification is by faith ALONE. There’s plenty that states justification/salvation is by faith but absolutely NONE that states that justification/salvation is by faith ALONE."
The 'works' to which James is referring:
27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. Ja 1
15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,
16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit? Ja 2
The just:
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
The unjust:
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Mt 25
Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.
I think you'll find it does. It looks as if I need to repeat myself, but I'll put the important bits in colour for you since you seem to like that.
Ephesians 2:8-9. 'For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.'
If salvation is by grace (and now you need to look at Romans 4:4-5 and maybe John 6:28-29) through faith and not by works, then how can it be by works?
Hodge's second rule of interpretaion:
2. Scripture cannot contradict scripture.
...the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his works: to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: Ro 2:5-7
I've another challenge for you Martin. Show me ONE passage pertaining to The Bema Judgment where our faith is even mentioned, let alone our 'faith alone'. It's ALWAYS about our WORKS.
(I know of one that might, maybe, indirectly, but I ain't telling you)
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No comment for post #45?
redneck, you have resorted to demanding an exact statement of your choosing or you will not believe. This is what legalists, apart from grace, resort to.
Now, both Martin and myself have shown you the many passages that, taken as a whole, show that justification is by faith alone, apart from works. You reject the evidence and have fallen upon your sword of "show me" based entirely upon your very particular demands. That, by the way, is a tactic used by a number of legalistic intra-biblical cults. You are living on tenuous ground and you have rejected the vast number of Reformers while actually embracing Rome.
Tell us why you are not Roman Catholic.
No you haven't. Not even one.
Does a passage like Romans 2:5-7 frighten you? Is that the root of your rejection of plain, easy to understand scripture, fear?
I shared this in another thread on justification, which you may be avoiding. You can read it.
Romans 2:5-7 actually confirms justification by faith alone, but your Roman Catholic leaning fails to see it. Read the entire letter to the Romans and understand Paul's argument. Right now you stumble because you have myopia.
Justification | Reformed Theology and Apologetics
Let's look at Romans 2.
Romans 2:1-13,17-24
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”
I will summarize and point you to read Romans 3-8 to grasp more of Paul's argument.
In the first verse, Paul connects you to his argument in chapter 1. We are justified by faith. The unredeemed are entirely fallen in sin.
Paul then argues that a person could be justified by works...if that person keeps the law perfectly. But no one can keep the perfectly. In chapters 5-7 Paul shows us that the law reveals sin, provokes sin, and condemns sin. It has no power to save.
In chapter 2 Paul is laying the base for his argument and is going to destroy the idea that one can be justified by works. He makes these statements in chapter 2 so that people will then be able to see that they cannot be justified by following the law. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
"The wages of sin is death, but the free gift (faith in Christ's imputed righteousness) of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
redneck, if you understood Paul's full argument, you would see you are cherry picking a few verses apart from the context of Paul's full argument. Read it all. You create a false doctrine by neglecting the whole of Paul's argument. Stop grasping onto a sound bite and listen to Paul's entire apologetic argument.
Romans 2:1-13,17-24
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”
I will summarize and point you to read Romans 3-8 to grasp more of Paul's argument.
In the first verse, Paul connects you to his argument in chapter 1. We are justified by faith. The unredeemed are entirely fallen in sin.
Paul then argues that a person could be justified by works...if that person keeps the law perfectly. But no one can keep the perfectly. In chapters 5-7 Paul shows us that the law reveals sin, provokes sin, and condemns sin. It has no power to save.
In chapter 2 Paul is laying the base for his argument and is going to destroy the idea that one can be justified by works. He makes these statements in chapter 2 so that people will then be able to see that they cannot be justified by following the law. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
"The wages of sin is death, but the free gift (faith in Christ's imputed righteousness) of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
redneck, if you understood Paul's full argument, you would see you are cherry picking a few verses apart from the context of Paul's full argument. Read it all. You create a false doctrine by neglecting the whole of Paul's argument. Stop grasping onto a sound bite and listen to Paul's entire apologetic argument.
Mikey
Active Member
So since Scripture cannot contradict Scripture, how do you reconcile James 2:14ff with Ephesians 2:8-9?
(I know how to do it but I ain't telling you - not yet, anyway)
You might also consider what the difference is between Genesis 15:6 where Abraham's faith is counted as righteousness and Genesis 22 where James says that he was justified by his works.
There's nothing to reconcile until you ADD the word ALONE to v 8.
37818
Well-Known Member
There is a disagreement regarding the understanding of faith "alone." Ephesians 2:8-9 has works explained in verse 10. And James teaches about those works. Works are in contrast to faith in Romans 4:4-5. And works are in contrast to grace in Romans 11:6. And that contrast is what is meant regarding grace "alone" and faith "alone." Faith is not apart from grace and works are not apart from faith.