A Non Elect Person Saved

[DrJamesAch]

Actually Paul is very clear about it in other places:

2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:
3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3

And Christ is very clear about it also:

......the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and they art not, but are a synagogue of Satan.....

....the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but do lie.... Rev 2:9;3:9

Paul is not saying that EVERYONE is a Jew. Paul is TALKING TO JEWS. Romans 2:17. Paul is talking to flesh and blood Jews that think they are justified by the law. v23. He is not making a comparison of Gentile to Jew and claiming that Gentiles who believe are really Jews, but that a REAL Jew is one that does not trust in the law, but in Christ.

Replacement theology erroneously interprets this passage to claim that Gentile believers become "spiritual Jews", and that's a gross deviation from what Paul is describing in Romans 2.

And your quote of Rev 2 is way out of context. Revelation 2-3 are descriptive of Jewish tribulation churches. Since when was anyone in the church age, Jew or Gentile, ever concerned with whether anyone was a real Jew or not? (Gal 3:27-28). It is a 144,000 Jews sealed in Revelation 7:4-8, Jewish witnesses in Revelation 11:3-7, killed IN JERUSALEM, and it is the Jews who are chased in Revelation 12:6, 14, and then the remnant of Jews who are slaughtered by the beast (Rev 12:17).

The focus goes back to Israel once the church is removed (notice that Revelation 2-3 never says THE church, always churches, physical locations not the collective ekklesia). During that time is when there will be examination as to who is a REAL Jew, but gospel will be delivered by Jews and an angel in Revelation 14:6, instead of the Jew and Gentile church.

So your references to Revelation chs 2-3 are way out of place.

 

[DrJamesAch]

I quoted a creed? You're trippin' hard on something.

I've never read a creed or confession. Anywhere. Now I am certain they are valuable, but you simply slander everything, and many great men of God in the meantime.

So by using the term ordo salutis you derive all this other nonsense? You're talking about when I stated election, calling, justification &c correct? If so, that's called Biblical terminology. Based on this I'm thankful that Paul too is DoG/Reformed.

No wonder you struggle with interpretation. You've just eisegeted what I said in the same manner you eisegete Scripture. It's a pattern for you.

Election, predestinated, are Biblical terms, the Roman term ordo saluti is not. It's not whether the term can be useful to describe a set of doctrines, but you said you'd never read them, so either you're fibbing, or you simply don't know Calvinism as well as you think you do, which would make sense now considering how often you accuse others of misrepresenting Calvin's views.

 

[preacher4truth]

Paul is not saying that EVERYONE is a Jew. Paul is TALKING TO JEWS. Romans 2:17. Paul is talking to flesh and blood Jews that think they are justified by the law. v23. He is not making a comparison of Gentile to Jew and claiming that Gentiles who believe are really Jews, but that a REAL Jew is one that does not trust in the law, but in Christ.

Replacement theology erroneously interprets this passage to claim that Gentile believers become "spiritual Jews", and that's a gross deviation from what Paul is describing in Romans 2.

And your quote of Rev 2 is way out of context. Revelation 2-3 are descriptive of Jewish tribulation churches. Since when was anyone in the church age, Jew or Gentile, ever concerned with whether anyone was a real Jew or not? (Gal 3:27-28). It is a 144,000 Jews sealed in Revelation 7:4-8, Jewish witnesses in Revelation 11:3-7, killed IN JERUSALEM, and it is the Jews who are chased in Revelation 12:6, 14, and then the remnant of Jews who are slaughtered by the beast (Rev 12:17).

The focus goes back to Israel once the church is removed (notice that Revelation 2-3 never says THE church, always churches, physical locations not the collective ekklesia). During that time is when there will be examination as to who is a REAL Jew, but gospel will be delivered by Jews and an angel in Revelation 14:6, instead of the Jew and Gentile church.

So your references to Revelation chs 2-3 are way out of place.

Bwa-ha-ha-ha!!!!!!

kyredneck, Aaron and myself gave you good doctrine. But since it dismantles your myths about this woman you don't like it.

Look, 'dr' you really need to get some theological help. Like read some Sproul, Boice, Gill, Spurgeon -- preachers and theologians who know what they're talking about. D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones would help you as well.

We know you're against creeds and confessions by your blind bias (being a KJVO-er adds to your bias and shallow theological platform as well).

That being said, what theological works do you consult? It doesn't look like you consult any at all so fill us in.

:thumbsup:

 

[preacher4truth]

Election, predestinated, are Biblical terms, the Roman term ordo saluti is not. It's not whether the term can be useful to describe a set of doctrines, but you said you'd never read them, so either you're fibbing, or you simply don't know Calvinism as well as you think you do, which would make sense now considering how often you accuse others of misrepresenting Calvin's views.

I've never read a creed or confessions, nor Calvin.

But let's not bring up 'knowing calvinism' and 'fibbing' 'dr' as you're one who plagiarized and claimed such as your own writing and understanding of the theology. OK? I mean, it shows just how much of a hypocrite you are and that inside of you something is amiss when you can blatantly lie, then create another lie -- and not have a conscience about it.

Now to your foolish post:

This is how larval you are in your thinking (the underlined and bolded up above).

There are many terms not seen in Scripture. Trinity being one. Omnisapience isn't found in the Bible. Omniscience isn't found in the Bible...and so on and so forth.

 

[DrJamesAch]

Now to your foolish post:

This is how larval you are in your thinking (the underlined and bolded up above).

There are many terms not seen in Scripture. Trinity being one. Omnisapience isn't found in the Bible. Omniscience isn't found in the Bible...and so on and so forth.

Once again, you missed something. I said above that some terms can be useful in describing a set of doctrines. But you did not learn those descriptions by reading them from the Bible. I agree that "Trinity" can be a useful term if the Godhead is described correctly. (Some like the UPC, use the term Trinity, but adhere to the "oneness" heresy.).

Your assertion was that you never read any of the creeds that use this label and I say hogwash because you HAVE TO HAVE in order to know what it means because the Bible never uses the term "ordo salutis" to describe a set of doctrines.

 

[preacher4truth]

Once again, you missed something. I said above that some terms can be useful in describing a set of doctrines. But you did not learn those descriptions by reading them from the Bible. I agree that "Trinity" can be a useful term if the Godhead is described correctly. (Some like the UPC, use the term Trinity, but adhere to the "oneness" heresy.).

Actually those terms are in the Bible.

That's where I got them.

As far as ordo salutis (order of salvation) it is a common well known term among students of Scripture.

Your assertion was that you never read any of the creeds that use this label and I say hogwash because you HAVE TO HAVE in order to know what it means because the Bible never uses the term "ordo salutis" to describe a set of doctrines.

I couldn't care less what a well known liar feels about my truthful statements. :wavey:

 

[kyredneck]

Paul is not saying that EVERYONE is a Jew. Paul is TALKING TO JEWS. Romans 2:17. Paul is talking to flesh and blood Jews that think they are justified by the law. v23. He is not making a comparison of Gentile to Jew and claiming that Gentiles who believe are really Jews, but that a REAL Jew is one that does not trust in the law, but in Christ.

'Born again from above' of the heavenly Zion [Ps 87; Gal 4:26], these are the 'real Jews', whose hearts have been circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands [Ro 2:28,29; Col 2:11].

DNA HAS ZILCH TO DO WITH IT. Never has never will.

Real Jews are those in whom God has wrought within. Always have been always will

Replacement theology erroneously interprets this passage to claim that Gentile believers become "spiritual Jews", and that's a gross deviation from what Paul is describing in Romans 2.

A better term would be 'enlargement' theology. The 'Israel of God' has been immensely 'enlarged' since the removal of the old and the revealing of the new:

Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hosea 1:10

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10:16

having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2:15

22 And no man putteth new wine into old wineskins; else the wine will burst the skins, and the wine perisheth, and the skins: but they put new wine into fresh wine-skins. Mark 2

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband. Gal 4

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes.
3 For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Isa 54

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 10:12

where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3:11

There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28

For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13

26 If therefore they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the wilderness; go not forth: Behold, he is in the inner chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be *the coming [presence YLT] of the Son of man . Mt 24

(And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, Lo, there! Lo, here! go not away, nor follow after them, for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day. Lu 17:22-24)

And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. v 3

For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. Hab 2:14

So shall they fear the name of Jehovah from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for he will come as a rushing stream, which the breath of Jehovah driveth. Isa 59:19

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the Gentiles, saith Jehovah of hosts. Mal 1:11

After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands; Rev 7:9

And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Isa 2:2

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off; and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth. Zech 9:9-10

All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah; And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. Ps 22:27

Jehovah will be terrible unto them; for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the nations. Zeph 2:11

but in very deed, as I live, and as all the earth shall be filled with the glory of Jehovah; Nu 14:21

At that time will I bring you in, and at that time will I gather you; for I will make you a name and a praise among all the peoples of the earth, when I bring back your captivity before your eyes, saith Jehovah. Zeph 3:11

But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place. 2 Cor 2:14

And he shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God: and they shall abide; for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. Micah 5:4

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the root of Jesse, that standeth for an ensign of the peoples, unto him shall the nations seek; and his resting-place shall be glorious. Isa 11:9-10

And your quote of Rev 2 is way out of context. Revelation 2-3 are descriptive of Jewish tribulation churches. Since when was anyone in the church age, Jew or Gentile, ever concerned with whether anyone was a real Jew or not? (Gal 3:27-28). It is a 144,000 Jews sealed in Revelation 7:4-8, Jewish witnesses in Revelation 11:3-7, killed IN JERUSALEM, and it is the Jews who are chased in Revelation 12:6, 14, and then the remnant of Jews who are slaughtered by the beast (Rev 12:17).

The focus goes back to Israel once the church is removed (notice that Revelation 2-3 never says THE church, always churches, physical locations not the collective ekklesia). During that time is when there will be examination as to who is a REAL Jew, but gospel will be delivered by Jews and an angel in Revelation 14:6, instead of the Jew and Gentile church.

So says the double dose Zionist dispy Jew. It's ALL about 'the apple of God's eye', Jews after the flesh, with the Dispensational heresy and the synagogue of Satan.

So your references to Revelation chs 2-3 are way out of place.

No, the hateful chutzpah that you routinely spew in your posts is NOT from the Church of Christ.

 

[Aaron]

Yes I understand that most Replacement Theology adherents interpret Romans 2 like that.

"Replacement" is a misnomer. "Fulfillment" is a better word, and more accurately reflects the Apostle's doctrine.

But your rejection thereof abates not the destruction those passages do to your application of the account of the Syro-Phoenician woman.

 

[MB]

Paul is not saying that EVERYONE is a Jew. Paul is TALKING TO JEWS. Romans 2:17. Paul is talking to flesh and blood Jews that think they are justified by the law. v23. He is not making a comparison of Gentile to Jew and claiming that Gentiles who believe are really Jews, but that a REAL Jew is one that does not trust in the law, but in Christ.

Replacement theology erroneously interprets this passage to claim that Gentile believers become "spiritual Jews", and that's a gross deviation from what Paul is describing in Romans 2.

And your quote of Rev 2 is way out of context. Revelation 2-3 are descriptive of Jewish tribulation churches. Since when was anyone in the church age, Jew or Gentile, ever concerned with whether anyone was a real Jew or not? (Gal 3:27-28). It is a 144,000 Jews sealed in Revelation 7:4-8, Jewish witnesses in Revelation 11:3-7, killed IN JERUSALEM, and it is the Jews who are chased in Revelation 12:6, 14, and then the remnant of Jews who are slaughtered by the beast (Rev 12:17).

The focus goes back to Israel once the church is removed (notice that Revelation 2-3 never says THE church, always churches, physical locations not the collective ekklesia). During that time is when there will be examination as to who is a REAL Jew, but gospel will be delivered by Jews and an angel in Revelation 14:6, instead of the Jew and Gentile church.

So your references to Revelation chs 2-3 are way out of place.

A men to the truth.
MB :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[MB]

Now to your foolish post:

[\QUOTE]
Seems to me you should be able to disprove the truth. Although I do not think you are capable.
MB

 

[DrJamesAch]

.

'

Born again from above' of the heavenly Zion [Ps 87; Gal 4:26], these are the 'real Jews', whose hearts have been circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands [Ro 2:28,29; Col 2:11].

Now your entire response is the classic example of a straw man argument. You have created your own caricature of what I believe and then critiqued your own caricature (especially the part where you confuse me with a Zionist instead of a Bible believing Christian that believes that Jesus is the Messiah).

Once again, you are missing the whole point of Paul's audience in Romans 2. He is telling the Jew that he is not a Jew BECAUSE HE FOLLOWS THE LAW. The Jews were continuously attempting to justify themselves by strict adherence to the law, and Paul is making the point that if you want to be the Jew God intended you to be, this is what a REAL JEW is.

The fact that you have admittedly quoted verses that show that there is no distinction between the Jew and Greek in the church proves you don't GET what Romans ch 2 is talking about. You can not both say that believers in the church are real JEWS, and then at the same time affirm that there are no DISTINCTIONS between Jew and Greek (Gal 3:27-28). You have erected an explicit contradiction in your logic unless you properly understand what Paul explaining.

DNA HAS ZILCH TO DO WITH IT. Never has never will.

"For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises" Romans 9:3-4

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." Romans 3:1-2

A better term would be 'enlargement' theology. The 'Israel of God' has been immensely 'enlarged' since the removal of the old and the revealing of the new:

NONE of the verses you listed prove this. Not one (including the several at the end you posted that have absolutely nothing to do with the subject AT ALL). You are attempting to use verses that show where the Gentiles were grafted in in an attempt to show that Israel and the church are the same thing and they are not.

If you want to be Israel, then you are also included the curse that Israel experiences from Daniel 9:24-27 in Daniels final week which has the church enduring Jacob's Trouble.

Jesus made it clear that the church and Israel are not the same when He told Peter, "Upon this rock I WILL BUILD my church" Matthew 16:18. Not I will build or enlarge Israel, but I WILL BUILD (future tense, hasn't been built yet) my church. The church can not have it's own independent beginning, and be Israel at the same time.

Gentiles experience the blessings of the cross because the Jews rejected it, not because the church morphed with Israel. Romans 11:17-24

Romans 11:28 makes a clear distinction between the elect of Israel, and those under the gospel of the church age

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes."

Why? because "the gifts and callings of God are without repentance" v 29.

God made promises to ISRAEL that He intends to keep.

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,"

Was it the church that God said He foreknew here? No, it was Israel.

You are "boasting against the branches".

The difference in the church and Israel is seen in the tribulation where the attention focuses back on Israel when Israel will be responsible for carrying the torch of the gospel. It is Jews that are sealed in Revelation 7, Jews that are used as witnesses in Revelation 11, Jews that sit on the thrones judging the tribes of Israel (Matt 19:28), it is Israel that is avenged and defended in Zechariah 14:2, Revelation 12:6.

You like all your other racist friends, seem to get the idea that when someone points out the distinction between the church and Israel, that we are somehow nullifying the church. That's absurd, I would be cutting my own throat.

But because of those distinctions between Israel and the church is why the OT promises to CORPORATE ISRAEL still apply even though Israel as a whole has been temporarily blinded to the gospel because of their rejection of Christ. God still curses nations that curse Israel. The Jews very existence and survival despite racists like you trying to kill all of us shows that God has not forgotten about Israel.

The fact that you refer to all Jews as Zionist Christ rejecters proves your vicious racism. I don't care what you think my differences may be about various views on doctrinal issues, but no orthodox Jew believes what I believe about Jesus Christ, and to put me in the same category as those of the synagogue of Satan shows your true colors.

And I notice you totally avoided the question about whether you think Jesus was a white man or not. Stop beating around the bush and just come all the way out of the closet.

 

[canadyjd]

Let's focus on the passage you quoted, Dr. , from Matt. 15.

Do you agree that the phrase "your sins are forgiven you" is not used by Jesus to address this woman?

Do you agree that the phrase "your faith has saved you" is not used by Jesus to address this woman?

Jesus said to the woman in v.28 "....'O woman, your faith is great; be it done for you as you wish.' And her daughter was healed at once."

There is no specific statement addressing this woman's sins as being forgiven, or of her being "saved".

The entire argument you have presented here, that this woman is an example of a non-elect person being saved, is simply not supported by the text, since the text doesn't say she was saved, and specifically says that what she desired was not personal salvation but healing for her daughter, which Jesus gave to her.

 

[DrJamesAch]

Let's focus on the passage you quoted, Dr. , from Matt. 15.

Do you agree that the phrase "your sins are forgiven you" is not used by Jesus to address this woman?

Do you agree that the phrase "your faith has saved you" is not used by Jesus to address this woman?

Jesus said to the woman in v.28 "....'O woman, your faith is great; be it done for you as you wish.' And her daughter was healed at once."

There is no specific statement addressing this woman's sins as being forgiven, or of her being "saved".

The entire argument you have presented here, that this woman is an example of a non-elect person being saved, is simply not supported by the text, since the text doesn't say she was saved, and specifically says that what she desired was not personal salvation but healing for her daughter, which Jesus gave to her.

Just because the text doesn't not specifically say "your sins are forgiven" doesn't mean she wasn't saved. I believe she was and I have given several other examples of people who were saved who gave less evidence of their repentance and faith in Christ than she did.

She demonstrated Biblical repentance, Jesus acknowledged her "great faith" and she acknowledge Jesus as Lord:

"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." 1 Corinthians 12:3

How is wanting healing for her daughter any different then those saved who wanted healing for themselves? In Mark 2:1-7, a man was saved when his servants brought him for healing, and there is nothing in the text that indicates they sought anything more than that. Their belief in Christ was enough. With all of the examples I have shown where people were saved, the omission of the words, "your sins are forgiven" do not dictate that she wasn't saved. Those examples, and 1 Corinthians 12:3 prove that she was.

I have given more than enough evidence to show this woman was saved, and just because the text does not say she wasn't doesn't mean that she was not saved.

Show me where Jesus told all of the apostles "your sins are forgiven". Would you doubt their salvation? Show me where Jesus said that Stephens sins were forgiven in Acts 7. The only way you can prove that any of them were saved is by deducting facts from various events, but not because any specific text declared "your sins are forgiven".

 

[psalms109:31]

I believe the Jews are the elect, the chosen.

I believe gentiles believers are being included when they hear the Gospel of their salvation having believed and when they are included, they are treated as a native born.

Jews was cut out for unbelief and the truth hidden from the wise and learned. If they already know it all, have it all there is no need to teach them they will not listen.

The remnant remained those meek and humble who trust in the Lord.

God is crafting Jews back in not included them into something they were already apart of when they do not continue in their unbelief.

Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble. The remnant of Israel will trust in the name of the Lord.

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

An Intimate Interlude on Spurgeon

"This breadth of heart was revealed on another occasion when in his prayer at a Thursday evening service he dared to go far beyond his creed, and in his passion for the souls of men cried, "Lord, hasten to bring in all Thine elect—and then elect some more."

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Romans 11:
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

John 15
The Vine and the Branches

1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[The Greek for he prunes also means he cleans.] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

 

[Iconoclast]

Ach,

wrong again..

Jesus made it clear that the church and Israel are not the same when He told Peter, "Upon this rock I WILL BUILD my church" Matthew 16:18. Not I will build or enlarge Israel, but I WILL BUILD (future tense, hasn't been built yet) my church. The church can not have it's own independent beginning, and be Israel at the same time.

5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.



42 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel:[B] I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.[/B]

 

[saturneptune]

Just because the text doesn't not specifically say "your sins are forgiven" doesn't mean she wasn't saved. I believe she was and I have given several other examples of people who were saved who gave less evidence of their repentance and faith in Christ than she did.

She demonstrated Biblical repentance, Jesus acknowledged her "great faith" and she acknowledge Jesus as Lord:

"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." 1 Corinthians 12:3

How is wanting healing for her daughter any different then those saved who wanted healing for themselves? In Mark 2:1-7, a man was saved when his servants brought him for healing, and there is nothing in the text that indicates they sought anything more than that. Their belief in Christ was enough. With all of the examples I have shown where people were saved, the omission of the words, "your sins are forgiven" do not dictate that she wasn't saved. Those examples, and 1 Corinthians 12:3 prove that she was.

I have given more than enough evidence to show this woman was saved, and just because the text does not say she wasn't doesn't mean that she was not saved.

Show me where Jesus told all of the apostles "your sins are forgiven". Would you doubt their salvation? Show me where Jesus said that Stephens sins were forgiven in Acts 7. The only way you can prove that any of them were saved is by deducting facts from various events, but not because any specific text declared "your sins are forgiven".

I am beginning to believe you are a plant from the Chamber of Commerce, Tourism Division, in Tel Aviv. By the way, you sure spend a lot of time cutting down not only fellow believers, but remember these are American taxpayers. I dare say without them, your country would not exist.

 

[convicted1]

I am beginning to believe you are a plant from the Chamber of Commerce, Tourism Division, in Tel Aviv. By the way, you sure spend a lot of time cutting down not only fellow believers, but remember these are American taxpayers. I dare say without them, your country would not exist.

Every person who has lost a political race is the "non-elect", correct? IOW, they're the loser. That's how come I heard a rumor that in Lone Oak, you're commonly referred to as the born "non-elect".... :wavey: :flower: :love2:

 

[convicted1]

Every person who has lost a political race is the "non-elect", correct? IOW, they're the loser. That's how come I heard a rumor that in Lone Oak, you're commonly referred to as the born "non-elect".... :wavey: :flower: :love2:

Just remember this......if no one in this world other than me loves you, then you need to jump off a cliff.....because it ain't me that loves you.....LOL J/K

 

[saturneptune]

Just remember this......if no one in this world other than me loves you, then you need to jump off a cliff.....because it ain't me that loves you.....LOL J/K

Kind of like citizens of West Virginia, who like to hit themselves with a hammer, because it feels so good when they stop.

 

[canadyjd]

Just because the text doesn't not specifically say "your sins are forgiven" doesn't mean she wasn't saved. I believe she was and I have given several other examples of people who were saved who gave less evidence of their repentance and faith in Christ than she did.

In the example you gave of the woman who washed Jesus's feet with her tears, He specifically tells her that her sins are forgiven.

She demonstrated Biblical repentance,

The text says nothing of the kind.

Jesus acknowledged her "great faith" and she acknowledge Jesus as Lord:

Jesus did acknowledge her great faith and gave her the desire of her heart, which wasn't salvation, but healing for her daughter. The title "Lord" can simply mean "Sir", and is not necessarily an acclamation of divinity.

"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." 1 Corinthians 12:3

You are misunderstanding the passage, IMHO. Paul is not saying a person cannot utter the word "Lord" to Jesus unless they are saved which is apparently what you believe it means. If that were true, it would contradict other scripture... such as Matt. 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord", will enter the kingdom of heaven....." or Matt. 25:44-46 "Then they themselves also will answer, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry.....(46) And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

I Cor. 12:3 is a statement of the inability of man to come to Christ unless Holy Spirit intervenes, not that every person uttering the title "lord" to Jesus is saved.

How is wanting healing for her daughter any different then those saved who wanted healing for themselves? In Mark 2:1-7, a man was saved when his servants brought him for healing, and there is nothing in the text that indicates they sought anything more than that. Their belief in Christ was enough.

The difference between Mark 2:1-7 and Matt. 15 is that in Mark 2, Jesus specifically tells the paralytic, "My son, your sins are forgiven."

With all of the examples I have shown where people were saved, the omission of the words, "your sins are forgiven" do not dictate that she wasn't saved. Those examples, and 1 Corinthians 12:3 prove that she was.

You have not shown me any examples of people being saved without the words "your sins are forgiven", or "your faith as made you well" or "your faith has saved you" or some other specific reference to forgiveness of sins or salvation. And I Cor. 12:3 does not "prove" what you claim it proves, as I have already demonstrated. Jesus stated that not everyone who says "lord" will be saved.

Show me where Jesus told all of the apostles "your sins are forgiven". Would you doubt their salvation?

I can show you where Holy Spirit was given to the Apostles (John 20:22). Can you show me where Holy Spirit was given to the woman?

Show me where Jesus said that Stephens sins were forgiven in Acts 7.

I can show you were Stephen had Holy Spirit. Acts 6:5 "...and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit." and 7:55 "But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God;"

The only way you can prove that any of them were saved is by deducting facts from various events, but not because any specific text declared "your sins are forgiven".

I'm not trying to "prove" anybody is saved. I want to understand the passage in the context it is written and not to bring anything to the text that isn't there.

You are attempting to use Matt. 15 to "prove" an assertion that certain doctrine is wrong... election of certain people to salvation, specifically.

This text doesn't help you make your case on the most basic level, because the text doesn't say the woman was saved or that her sins were forgiven or any such thing. If fact, the text says Jesus gave her the desire of her heart, which was healing for her daughter, not salvation of her soul.

All the other arguments are academic.... who are the elect? Do they include only Jews or also gentiles?...and on and on. Those arguments, though good and scholarly, have nothing to do with Matt. 15.