A novel view on Old Earth Creationism

[Scott Downey]

I can believe that Old Testament and New Testament authors used phrases that showed their opinion that Hades, Sheol and Hell were "under the earth" and "below" as men of old gave it their best shot guessing where these mysterious realms existed. Still, the bible does not definitively state Hell is in or under the Earth. I believe though it is a place, a realm that God created for the Devil and his angels. And at the end, both Death and Hell will be judged and "removed" and cast into The Lake of Fire", (yet another mysterious realm of judgment).

Where these places exist is anyone's guess. I seem to remember evangelist Oliver B. Green and John R. Rice believed Hell existed inside the molten core of planet Earth.

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The difference between me and you, is I believe what the scriptures are saying, and you dont, and you dont recognize this as a problem?

The fact that under the earth exists a molten state of tremendous heat and fire that never goes out is evidence in itself that hell is under the earth. Something men can see and feel with their physical bodies. God leaves us a witness in the earth of hell fire and brimstone.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

The difference between me and you, is I believe what the scriptures are saying, and you dont, and you dont recognize this as a problem?

Just what exactly are you talking about? Explain yourself explicitly. Prove you know that I don't believe the scriptures.

 

[Scott Downey]

Just what exactly are you talking about? Explain yourself explicitly. Prove you know that I don't believe the scriptures.

I dont have to, you already did it yourself, and you dont even recognize that.

 

[Scott Downey]

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish,
so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

When Jesus died he descended into hades, (hell, sheol) Jesus said it is in the heart of the earth.
Hell is under the earth, so under your feet, somewhere down below...way down in the fire and the heat is a place called hell.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

I dont have to, you already did it yourself, and you dont even recognize that.

Ah gee, Scott, now that is simply a lazy man's better-than-thou cop out. How can anyone read your mind?

Your comment reminds of the time a brother and I went to ask an older brother what his plans for our fellowship were and why he was behaving like he was. Instead of a direct response he simply stated, "In time you all will understand." Stuff like that is snobbish baloney. Tragically, the fellowship soon dissolved under his authoritarian know-it-all behavior.

So, are you like him or are you going to be forthright here? Or is the reality happening here, that you simply do not have a logical answer for why you are saying what you are saying?

Hmmm . . .

 

[Scott Downey]

Ah gee, Scott, now that is simply a lazy man's better-than-thou cop out. How can anyone read your mind?

Your comment reminds of the time a brother and I went to ask an older brother what his plans for our fellowship were and why he was behaving like he was. Instead of a direct response he simply stated, "In time you all will understand." Stuff like that is snobbish baloney. Tragically, the fellowship soon dissolved under his authoritarian know-it-all behavior.

So, are you like him or are you going to be forthright here? Or is the reality happening here, that you simply do not have a logical answer for why you are saying what you are saying?

Hmmm . . .

Now you're trolling. The scriptures clearly say Hell (Sheol) is under the earth, or at it's heart.
And you do not believe it.
For you nullify the scriptures saying people wrote them long ago according to their cultural understanding.
Scripture though is the word of God to man .

Here is what you believe
"I can believe that Old Testament and New Testament authors used phrases that showed their opinion that Hades, Sheol and Hell were "under the earth" and "below" as men of old gave it their best shot guessing where these mysterious realms existed."

That is like paganism.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

Now you're trolling. The scriptures clearly say Hell (Sheol) is under the earth, or at it's heart.
And you do not believe it.
For you nullify the scriptures saying people wrote them long ago according to their cultural understanding.
Scripture though is the word of God to man .

Scripture still doesn't conclusively state Hell is inside the Earth. When Jesus gave the sign of Jonah, He was simply referring to being DEAD and BURIED in the earth for 3 days, etc. He never says anything about being in Hell. You're misinterpreting that passage to prove something taught to you as a young believer. Let it go man. It just is NOT important for a Christian to believe the Earth's interior houses Hell. It just isn't any doctrine or statement of faith. It is simply a concept someone put in your head. I heard the same goofy idea from fundamentalist preachers years ago and the Spirit way back then gave me a clear check in my spirit every time I heard it or read it. I didn't buy it then and I ain't being swayed now.

You're biased in your Scripture reading due to prejudice from man's ideas put in your head. Even the Greeks foolishly believed the Underworld was inside the Earth. It's all the logic reasonings and myths of men vs. hearing the Spirit of God breathe Truth. Ideas upon ideas still only yields ideas - not Truth.

 

[church mouse guy]

No one can truly know anyone else's heart state as to whether they are "bitter" or not, sir.

I am simply stating the uncomfortable facts here. And I stand 110% behind what I post here.

I actually regret blowing some much of my money for my wife and I to see The Ark Encounter. Other than actually seeing the mammoth monstrosity in all its glory, it was a huge waste of my time and it's pro-YEC propaganda show inside the Ark replica really saddened me as an OEC adherent and former Christian school science teacher.

Does the Lord Jesus really need all this "stuff" we build and plan here on the temporal earth and waste billions of dollars doing religion this way? Or does he really prefer we do true religion and take care of the needy.

Matthew 25:31-40
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.


“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, "I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’


“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’


“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.” (NIV)

Our money is best spent elsewhere on things that actually matter for eternity -- not on Christian disneylands, bigger churches, cathedrals and yet another new parsonage.

Food For The Poor | Feeding the Hungry | Charity organization

You are just another one of the hundreds of millions of old earthers who think that you should control all of the museums and who uses the government and schools to propagate your point of view. If Christians want to build a museum with their own money, that is their right.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

You are just another one of the hundreds of millions of old earthers who think that you should control all of the museums and who uses the government and schools to propagate your point of view. If Christians want to build a museum with their own money, that is their right.

Brother, the government and the schools could care less about ANY form of Creationism. I tried for years to simply get local libraries to carry creationism texts, with no luck.

OEC folks never try "control" any museums. You cannot provide evidence of such a claim.

And yes, Christians can blow their money on whatever they want. It is their right but I doubt most of what Christian organizations (AIG) etc spend their money on will be approved by the Lord.

 

[church mouse guy]

Brother, the government and the schools could care less about ANY form of Creationism. I tried for years to simply get local libraries to carry creationism texts, with no luck.

OEC folks never try "control" any museums. You cannot provide evidence of such a claim.

And yes, Christians can blow their money on whatever they want. It is their right but I doubt most of what Christian organizations (AIG) etc spend their money on will be approved by the Lord.

For the record, it’s AiG.

if you go to any natural history museum, they will tell you how many millions of years ago something was. The same with state parks and national parks. If you attend a Baptist church, you will hear old earth preached in the form of the gap theory, etc. Even Spurgeon was old earth. If you watch a TV show, you are going to hear old earth. Science books in both public schools and colleges and universities feature old earth. Against all that a tiny minority has a couple of museums in Kentucky. Do you feel threatened when you are in the majority about 9 to 1? I doubt it.

 

[church mouse guy]

Another creation museum, this one in Florida near Fort Lauderdale:

 

[Scott Downey]

Another creation museum, this one in Florida near Fort Lauderdale:

Pretty clear the scripture says 6 days of creation, as in DAYS, not ages.
And GOD did speak this,
Exodus 20
20 And God spoke all these words, saying:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
-------------------------------------------------------------

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

 

[Aaron]

I visited The Ark Encounter in 2017. Here's a pic. There are a lot of good arguments presented showing that doubting scientists don't have all the facts. Anyway, having gone through my sophistry phases through college, and believing that doubting was thinking, and that the allusions to specialized knowledge of something hidden to most whether it be in the understanding the "nuaces" of "ancient" languages blah blah blah, or some other form of Gnosticism, I soon found that "science" has nothing except presumption to compel one to accept an old Creation, and it's always to make room for Darwinism.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

. . ."science" has nothing except presumption to compel one to accept an old Creation, and it's always to make room for Darwinism.

Evolutionary, Darwinistic "science" has nothing to do with "compelling" a Christian to choose to be an OEC. It's simply looking at correct interpretation of ancient Hebrew in the Genesis account and also being willing to see countless examples God has provided that prove the earth Man walks on has been here a very, very long time. He is only a recent "implant" by the Creator. The earth's history shows vast eons existing before the creation of Adam and Eve and Paradise. Old earth creationism has never suggested the illogical tenets of Darwinism. YEC camp adherents like to state OEC adherents open the door for evolution to be true but that is simple poppycock.

 

[Scott Downey]

Evolutionary, Darwinistic "science" has nothing to do with "compelling" a Christian to choose to be an OEC. It's simply looking at correct interpretation of ancient Hebrew in the Genesis account and also being willing to see countless examples God has provided that prove the earth Man walks on has been here a very, very long time. He is only a recent "implant" by the Creator. The earth's history shows vast eons existing before the creation of Adam and Eve and Paradise. Old earth creationism has never suggested the illogical tenets of Darwinism. YEC camp adherents like to state OEC adherents open the door for evolution to be true but that is simple poppycock.

Do you believe Noah's flood covered the whole earth and extinguished all air breathing life except for those in the ark?

 

[Scott Downey]

Evidence for a Young Earth.

Interesting things about why the earth is young.

 

[Aaron]

Evolutionary, Darwinistic "science" has nothing to do with "compelling" a Christian to choose to be an OEC. It's simply looking at correct interpretation of ancient Hebrew in the Genesis account and also being willing to see countless examples God has provided that prove the earth Man walks on has been here a very, very long time. He is only a recent "implant" by the Creator. The earth's history shows vast eons existing before the creation of Adam and Eve and Paradise. Old earth creationism has never suggested the illogical tenets of Darwinism. YEC camp adherents like to state OEC adherents open the door for evolution to be true but that is simple poppycock.

One, it has everything to do with Darwinism. Two, "earth history," apart from the revelation of God, is a pile of presumption and conjecture. Three, man is not a "recent implant," LOL. Christ said in no uncertain terms that man and woman were here "from the beginning of creation."

Genesis says, in no uncertain terms, that man and woman were created on the sixth day. There is no real debate about what Genesis is saying. The real question is whether or not one believes it.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

One, it has everything to do with Darwinism. Two, "earth history," apart from the revelation of God, is a pile of presumption and conjecture. Three, man is not a "recent implant," LOL. Christ said in no uncertain terms that man and woman were here "from the beginning of creation."

Genesis says, in no uncertain terms, that man and woman were created on the sixth day. There is no real debate about what Genesis is saying. The real question is whether or not one believes it.

Brother, your view is simplistic and absolutely denying a plethora of evidence indicating an old earth. I suggest you purchase the books already mentioned in this thread and READ them. Don't trust what you have been taught or preached to about Genesis.

I also just read Watchman Nee's The Mystery of Creation and it is fascinating.

Never mind what I say here. Do your own honest research like I did decades ago and perhaps the evidence against YEC will open your eyes.

What you think you know about Genesis is biased and shortsighted. Don't be afraid of the truth.

Again, just open up your mind to OEC premises and to views other than simplistic indoctrination you hold fast to.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

One, it has everything to do with Darwinism. Two, "earth history," apart from the revelation of God, is a pile of presumption and conjecture. Three, man is not a "recent implant," LOL. Christ said in no uncertain terms that man and woman were here "from the beginning of creation."

Genesis says, in no uncertain terms, that man and woman were created on the sixth day. There is no real debate about what Genesis is saying. The real question is whether or not one believes it.

1) Current day OEC has nothing to do with Darwinism. FACT.

2) Earth history has been analyzed scientifically in many ways by countless believing scientists who have come to believe in an old earth. They did not use presumption nor fall into conjecture. They used the logical minds God gave them. Because someone states the bible only teaches YEC does NOT equal the revelation of God. YEC adherents merely assert their chosen belief as the only truth because they think their narrow-minded interpretation of the Genesis creation account is God-breathed. It is NOT.

3) LOL all you like. When the Lord re-created, repaired and remade the most recent earth we have today, that was previously made formless and void -- in that unique, re-creative time-frame was what Jesus was referring to as "the beginning of creation". I speak of the well-known "Gap Theory" between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 here. Careful analysis of the ancient Hebrew words used in Genesis 1 give a strong support for the "Gap Theory". Is God capable of repairing a devastated ancient earth? Of course He is! And can the Creator Jesus correctly call it "the beginning"? Of course He can!

Were Adam and Eve created on the 6th day of this recreation of the ancient earth? Of course! Were they "latecomers" or "implants" on an older earth? Yes!

Is there a real debate about what Genesis is saying here? Of course there is! Believing Christians have debated the events of the record of creation for many years -- and it will continue until Christ returns!

There is not a question here about believing the bible -- it is simply about correct interpretation. Because someone doesn't agree with your interpretation -- does not mean they don't believe the scripture. To assert such is simply holding onto dogma and not seeking the path to the truth.

You can be a YEC if you like -- just don't assert OEC don't believe the bible. That is uncalled for.

 

[Aaron]

1) Current day OEC has nothing to do with Darwinism. FACT.

K.

2) Earth history has been analyzed scientifically in many ways by countless believing scientists who have come to believe in an old earth. They did not use presumption nor fall into conjecture. They used the logical minds God gave them. Because someone states the bible only teaches YEC does NOT equal the revelation of God. YEC adherents merely assert their chosen belief as the only truth because they think their narrow-minded interpretation of the Genesis creation account is God-breathed. It is NOT.

Yeah. We could go back and forth on generalities all day. Choose one of the many ways, and we'll discuss it.

3) LOL all you like.=

I will.

When the Lord re-created, repaired and remade the most recent earth we have today, that was previously made formless and void -- in that unique, re-creative time-frame was what Jesus was referring to as "the beginning of creation". I speak of the well-known "Gap Theory" between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 here. Careful analysis of the ancient Hebrew words used in Genesis 1 give a strong support for the "Gap Theory". Is God capable of repairing a devastated ancient earth? Of course He is! And can the Creator Jesus correctly call it "the beginning"? Of course He can!

And there ya go. But Jesus wasn't calling what is erroneously identified by some as a 'post gap' point in history as "the beginning," He was quoting Moses--not rewriting him. What Moses called the beginning is what Jesus was calling the beginning.