A pastor’s 1st or 2nd responsibility

[stilllearning]

As I see it, there are two main responsibilities a senior pastor has(we can discuss which one is first later), and I see one of them being woefully overlooked. One of these responsibilities is winning souls to Christ and the other is ministering to the Saints.
This thread is about the second.

Depending upon the kind of man your pastor is, he may mostly preach about “God’s Love” or about “sin/doctrine”(you shouldn’t preach about sin without it going hand in hand with Bible doctrine).
Anyway, I love to hear the second kind of preaching(it’s also what I seem to major on).
But.... I seem to be seeing more and more of those “good pastors”(that I know), that preach mostly about sin/doctrine, miss-applying their messages.
------------------------
When I preach about sin, I divide it into two categories;
(1)A Christian’s sin and (2)A lost person’s sin.

A Christian’s sin might be seen as “falling”(from weakness), into temporary sin, that they quickly feel bad about and repent of. And my message to those Christians who seem to have a problem with a stronghold type of sin, that causes them to repeatedly fall into the same kind of sin and repeatedly repent, is a good dose of “real repentance”.

But on the other hand, a “lost person’s sin” is one where they have gone headlong into a particular sin and are living in it and seem to be perfectly fine(even blessed by God).
God’s Word clearly teaches that this person is not saved and needs to trust Christ as their Savior.
------------------------
But the problem that I am seeing in some of the messages that I hear good men preach, is that they talk about members of their congregation that have been happily living in gross immorality for years and seem to be “patting them on the back”, by only warning them of the Earthly consequences of their sin, and not calling it like it is.

This is one of the cruelest things that can be done to a member of your Church. Not warning them that they are most likely unsaved.

From a historical point of view, is this kind of misapplication worse now than it was in the past?

 

[Mexdeaf]

Sin is sin. Period.

It is more devastating when a believer sins because we do not HAVE TO sin. For us there is always a way out.

I'm a believer in the fact that if preachers will help people to fall in love with Christ, the sin problem will be taken care of. Too much of the preaching I hear to believers is "You, bad sinner, you" when we should preach "Christ".

 

[stilllearning]

Good morning Mexdeaf

You said....

“Sin is sin. Period.”

I agree.
In this thread I should have made it more clear, that it isn’t categorizing sin, but sinners.
--------------------------------------------------

It is more devastating when a believer sins because we do not HAVE TO sin. For us there is always a way out.

I also agree.
--------------------------------------------------

I'm a believer in the fact that if preachers will help people to fall in love with Christ, the sin problem will be taken care of.

I also agree with this. Because if we love and reverence Christ the way we should, we will more quickly deal with our sin.
--------------------------------------------------

Too much of the preaching I hear to believers is "You, bad sinner, you" when we should preach "Christ".

This is have a problem with(and you should too); Because we are all sinners and we all have sin in our life; And our sin has the potential to destroy our life.
Therefore all of us, should want to hear messages about sin more and more, so that it will help us to identify our sin and repent of it.

 

[TCassidy]

The pastor's work is as follows: Pray, Prepare, Preach, Protect, Preserve, and Perfect the Flock. The pastor's final task will be to Present the church, the Bride of Christ, faultless, a chaste virgin, to the Bridegroom, the Lord Jesus Christ, at the Marriage Feast of the Lamb.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Good morning Mexdeaf

This is have a problem with(and you should too); Because we are all sinners and we all have sin in our life; And our sin has the potential to destroy our life.
Therefore all of us, should want to hear messages about sin more and more, so that it will help us to identify our sin and repent of it.

Good afternoon stilllearning.

I'm sorry but I quite disagree. Let me see if I can find a quote that I read recently that sums it up...

“What ends up happening to so many of us is that we spend so much time trying to put sin to death that we don’t spend enough time striving to know God deeply, trying to gaze upon the wonder of Jesus Christ and have that transform our affections to the point where our love and hope are steadfastly on Christ. The goal is this: that Christ would become more beautiful and desirable than the allure of sin."

Excerpt From:
Matt Chandler & Jared Wilson. “The Explicit Gospel.” Crossway, 2012.

Preach Christ and Him crucified. Crucify self daily. Live as a dead man preaching to dying men. Lift up Christ!

 

[drfuss]

Quote
“What ends up happening to so many of us is that we spend so much time trying to put sin to death that we don’t spend enough time striving to know God deeply, trying to gaze upon the wonder of Jesus Christ and have that transform our affections to the point where our love and hope are steadfastly on Christ. The goal is this: that Christ would become more beautiful and desirable than the allure of sin."

Excerpt From:
Matt Chandler & Jared Wilson. “The Explicit Gospel.” Crossway, 2012.
Unquote

I just finished reading "The Explicit Gospel". A good book.
Another good thing in the book was the danger in serving God out of guilt and obligation instead of out of love and compassion. Guilt and obligation can lead to critisizing others, setting acceptable standards of conduct for ourselves and others, and eventually leading to a works salvation. The book uses the church at Ephesus in Revelations 3, as an example of doing the right things for the wrong motives.

Getting back to the OP, Pastors should be careful to teach serving God out of love and not out of obligation.

 

[Herald]

The pastor's work is as follows: Pray, Prepare, Preach, Protect, Preserve, and Perfect the Flock. The pastor's final task will be to Present the church, the Bride of Christ, faultless, a chaste virgin, to the Bridegroom, the Lord Jesus Christ, at the Marriage Feast of the Lamb.

I couldn't agree more. The pastor's main job is not to "win souls." The pastor is to preach the Word of God. It is the Word that is the means of salvation:

[7]*The law of the LORD is perfect,
reviving the soul;

(Psalm 19:7a ESV)

Converting souls is something any pastor worth his salt wants to see. The pastor is certainly to do the work of an evangelist:

[5]*As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
(2 Timothy 4:5 ESV)

The pastor does that work by preaching the Gospel.

 

[Bronconagurski]

The pastor's work is as follows: Pray, Prepare, Preach, Protect, Preserve, and Perfect the Flock. The pastor's final task will be to Present the church, the Bride of Christ, faultless, a chaste virgin, to the Bridegroom, the Lord Jesus Christ, at the Marriage Feast of the Lamb.

I was gonna list prayer but you beat me to it, so thanks, because prayer is just as important as study imo.

 

[padredurand]

A Pastor's job description:

I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
2 Timothy 4:1-2 NAS77

 

[Bronconagurski]

A Pastor's job description:

I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
2 Timothy 4:1-2 NAS77

I agree with the above, but would add the following:

Acts 6:3-4 (NASB)
3 "Therefore, brethren, select from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may put in charge of this task.
4 "But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word."

 

[michael-acts17:11]

It is NOT a pastor's responsibility to preach salvation to the regenerate nor to preach against sin every chance he gets. It is the primary responsibility of elders to feed the congregation from the meat of the Word & to train them to feed themselves. Show me a pastor who focuses on sin, and I'll show you a legalist who is not qualified to teach & a congregation of immature believers. If believers are taught from the meat of the Word, the Holy Spirit will take care of the sin.

"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."
(Hebrews 5:12-6:1-2)

 

[Mexdeaf]

Show me a pastor who focuses on sin, and I'll show you a legalist who is not qualified to teach & a congregation of immature believers. If believers are taught from the meat of the Word, the Holy Spirit will take care of the sin.

:thumbs::wavey::applause:

 

[stilllearning]

Hello michael-acts17:11

You said.......

“Show me a pastor who focuses on sin, and I'll show you a legalist who is not qualified to teach & a congregation of immature believers.”

Lets look at a message that Jesus preached.....
V.13 ¶ But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
V.14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
V.15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
V.16 Woe unto you, [ye] blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
V.17 [Ye] fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
V.18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
V.19 [Ye] fools and blind: for whether [is] greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
V.20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
V.21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
V.22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
V.23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
V.24 [Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
V.25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
V.26 [Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
V.27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men’s] bones, and of all uncleanness.
V.28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
V.29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
V.30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
V.31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
V.32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
V.33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?” (Matthew 23:13-33)

Jesus focused on sin, because SIN, is our biggest problem!
(And your denial of this problem, is your biggest problem.)
------------------------
Although I agree with part of your statement: As I have said many times here, “Legalism keeps believers immature”:

But, a refusal to “focus” on sin(as something to be dealt with), keeps people in bondage to it.
--------------------------------------------------
Also you said.......

“If believers are taught from the meat of the Word, the Holy Spirit will take care of the sin.”

Lets see what God used Paul to say about that.......
V.1 ¶ And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.
V.2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.
V.3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
V.4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?” (1 Corinthians 3:1-4)

Here the Lord used Paul, to focus on sin once again!
--------------------------------------------------
Which brings us back to my OP, that wasn’t mainly about focusing on sin, but about a pastor “lying” to his members, who have sin filled lives, by assuring them of their ticket to heaven.

 

[The Archangel]

I agree with the above, but would add the following:

Acts 6:3-4 (NASB)
3 "Therefore, brethren, select from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may put in charge of this task.
4 "But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word."

The challenge, though, is that this passage that you quote is preceded by verse 2, "And the twelve summoned the full number of the disciples and said, “It is not right that we should give up preaching the word of God to serve tables." (Acts 6:2 ESV)

The Apostles specifically state that serving tables (the "task" referred to in v. 3) is not part of the Pastor's job description.

Now, of course, you may be stating this as you quote v. 4 about Pastors "devoting [themselves] to prayer and the ministry of the word." I'm not meaning to pick a fight; I'm trying, however, to clarify what the text is indeed saying.

Furthermore, Ephesians 4 says this:

[11] And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, [12] to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, [13] until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, [14] so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. [15] Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, [16] from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. (Ephesians 4:11-16 ESV)
​

It is important to note that the primary role of the pastor (listed here as "teachers" in v. 11) is to "equip the saints for ministry."

Many churches and many pastors run into huge problems because the people of the church wrongly believe the pastor is to do everything so that they can do nothing. The pastor must visit shut-ins, the ones in the hospital, etc. Clearly, part of "equipping the saints" is to model ministry for the congregation, so the pastor is not relieved of a need to visit. But, most congregants do not understand, nor have they been taught that they are the ones charged by Scripture itself to do the work of ministry.

Many congregants complain that the pastor doesn't do enough soul-winning, so-and-so hasn't been visited in x-number of weeks, etc. When congregants make these complaints, they only need complain to the mirror as it is the congregant(s) who are being derelict in their Scriptural responsibility.

Many pastors do not teach this. Certainly, some don't teach this because to "empower" the congregation to be an army of ministers (which is what the Bible shows as the proper model) is to disperse power away from himself. Sadly, many pastors don't teach this and won't teach this--even though burnout does often happen--because they seek control, not the equipping of the congregation.

It is rare that you find a pastor who teaches to "equip the saints for ministry" and a congregation that is willing to be the army of ministers the Bible calls them to be. It is no wonder our churches are failing mightily in almost everything.

I read a great analogy at one time: Many think the church is analogous to a "Cruise Ship" where they come to be waited on hand-and-foot when the church, in actuality, is a battleship where everyone is to "do" the will of Christ who is our Captain.

The Archangel

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Hello michael-acts17:11

You said.......


Lets look at a message that Jesus preached.....
V.13 ¶ But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
V.14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
V.15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
V.16 Woe unto you, [ye] blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
V.17 [Ye] fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
V.18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
V.19 [Ye] fools and blind: for whether [is] greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
V.20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
V.21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
V.22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
V.23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
V.24 [Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
V.25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
V.26 [Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
V.27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men’s] bones, and of all uncleanness.
V.28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
V.29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
V.30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
V.31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
V.32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
V.33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?” (Matthew 23:13-33)

Jesus focused on sin, because SIN, is our biggest problem!
(And your denial of this problem, is your biggest problem.)
------------------------
Although I agree with part of your statement: As I have said many times here, “Legalism keeps believers immature”:

But, a refusal to “focus” on sin(as something to be dealt with), keeps people in bondage to it.
--------------------------------------------------
Also you said.......


Lets see what God used Paul to say about that.......
V.1 ¶ And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.
V.2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.
V.3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
V.4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?” (1 Corinthians 3:1-4)

Here the Lord used Paul, to focus on sin once again!
--------------------------------------------------
Which brings us back to my OP, that wasn’t mainly about focusing on sin, but about a pastor “lying” to his members, who have sin filled lives, by assuring them of their ticket to heaven.

Thank you for making my point. Jesus condemned the legalists of His day in the strongest possible terms. The Pharisees were focused on behavior, dress codes, drink, & meat. They pointed people to their own standard instead of to Christ. This made them shallow lovers of fleshly standards. That is what focusing on the sin of others accomplishes.

Paul could not speak to the believers in Corinth as spiritual because they were mired in spiritual immaturity. They lacked the depth of leadership which he could provide.

Since you've done such a great job making my point, why don't you comment on the direct teaching that for the congregation to be "perfect"(mature), the elders must not lay again the foundation of repentance from dead works, of faith toward God, & of eternal judgment? You know, the BIG THREE in fundamentalist sermons.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The challenge, though, is that this passage that you quote is preceded by verse 2, "And the twelve summoned the full number of the disciples and said, “It is not right that we should give up preaching the word of God to serve tables." (Acts 6:2 ESV)

The Apostles specifically state that serving tables (the "task" referred to in v. 3) is not part of the Pastor's job description.

Now, of course, you may be stating this as you quote v. 4 about Pastors "devoting [themselves] to prayer and the ministry of the word." I'm not meaning to pick a fight; I'm trying, however, to clarify what the text is indeed saying.

Furthermore, Ephesians 4 says this:

[11] And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, [12] to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, [13] until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, [14] so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. [15] Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, [16] from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. (Ephesians 4:11-16 ESV)
​

It is important to note that the primary role of the pastor (listed here as "teachers" in v. 11) is to "equip the saints for ministry."

Many churches and many pastors run into huge problems because the people of the church wrongly believe the pastor is to do everything so that they can do nothing. The pastor must visit shut-ins, the ones in the hospital, etc. Clearly, part of "equipping the saints" is to model ministry for the congregation, so the pastor is not relieved of a need to visit. But, most congregants do not understand, nor have they been taught that they are the ones charged by Scripture itself to do the work of ministry.

Many congregants complain that the pastor doesn't do enough soul-winning, so-and-so hasn't been visited in x-number of weeks, etc. When congregants make these complaints, they only need complain to the mirror as it is the congregant(s) who are being derelict in their Scriptural responsibility.

Many pastors do not teach this. Certainly, some don't teach this because to "empower" the congregation to be an army of ministers (which is what the Bible shows as the proper model) is to disperse power away from himself. Sadly, many pastors don't teach this and won't teach this--even though burnout does often happen--because they seek control, not the equipping of the congregation.

It is rare that you find a pastor who teaches to "equip the saints for ministry" and a congregation that is willing to be the army of ministers the Bible calls them to be. It is no wonder our churches are failing mightily in almost everything.

I read a great analogy at one time: Many think the church is analogous to a "Cruise Ship" where they come to be waited on hand-and-foot when the church, in actuality, is a battleship where everyone is to "do" the will of Christ who is our Captain.

The Archangel

Good post....& so true, its always the duty of the pastor, never the guy in the pew. Ive noticed that in every church I visited. Why is that?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It is NOT a pastor's responsibility to preach salvation to the regenerate nor to preach against sin every chance he gets. It is the primary responsibility of elders to feed the congregation from the meat of the Word & to train them to feed themselves. Show me a pastor who focuses on sin, and I'll show you a legalist who is not qualified to teach & a congregation of immature believers. If believers are taught from the meat of the Word, the Holy Spirit will take care of the sin.

"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."
(Hebrews 5:12-6:1-2)

Totally agree but your analogy of Elders (Deacons for that matter) ever actually doing any heavy lifting is like looking for a needle in a haystack. They do not exist in my neck of the woods.

 

[stilllearning]

Good morning michael-acts17:11

Before I respond to your latest post, I noticed your favorite Scripture.....
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” (Acts 17:11)

This is indeed a good verse to bring to people’s attention: But if you are suggesting to others that they “search the scriptures daily”, you should be doing it yourself.
--------------------------------------------------
You said......

“Thank you for making my point. Jesus condemned the legalists of His day in the strongest possible terms. The Pharisees were focused on behavior, dress codes, drink, & meat. They pointed people to their own standard instead of to Christ. This made them shallow lovers of fleshly standards. That is what focusing on the sin of others accomplishes.”

This is a great example of singling out “one” point in a passage that literally has hundreds of things to say, and "going to seed" with it.
For sure, the Pharisees were “focused on behavior of others”, but if you actually READ the Bible, you will notice that Jesus hardly even notices that at all.
What Jesus is FOCUSING on here, is the Hypocrisy of the Spiritual leaders of His time.

i.e. (Hypocrisy, because while they were preaching against sin, their lives were overflowing with sin themselves.) This is what Jesus was condemning!

In fact, Jesus “commended” these very same Pharisees, for preaching against sin.....
V.1 ¶ Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
V.2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
V.3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
V.4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men’s shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers.
V.5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
V.6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
V.7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
V.8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.
V.9 And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.” (Matthew 23:1-9)
----
No Michael, I didn’t “make your point”: The Lord wants us to preach against sin; And He wants us to be dealing with our own sins also.
--------------------------------------------------
Next you said........

“Paul could not speak to the believers in Corinth as spiritual because they were mired in spiritual immaturity. They lacked the depth of leadership which he could provide.”

I can agree with this first line: (They were immature because of their sin!)
But I think you mis-typed the second line. (They lacked something that Paul could provide?) Why, because he wouldn’t provide it?
--------------------------------------------------
Also you said.....

“Since you've done such a great job making my point, why don't you comment on the direct teaching that for the congregation to be "perfect"(mature), the elders must not lay again the foundation of repentance from dead works, of faith toward God, & of eternal judgment?”

Okey, I will.......
V.12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
V.13 For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
V.14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
V.1 ¶ Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
V.2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.” (Hebrews 5:12-14 & 6:1-2)

This is the passage you posted, but look at the next verse.....
“And this will we do, if God permit.” (Hebrews 6:3)

Therefore, we can only receive the “strong meat” of God’s Word, if He allows us to.

Also notice a few verses below this one.......
V.10 For God [is] not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
V.11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
V.12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.” (Hebrews 6:10-12)

Just as the Bible says here about God's desire, my “desire”, is “that every one of us” deal with our sin, so that we can be partakers of God’s blessings!
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Finally you said........

“You know, the BIG THREE in fundamentalist sermons.”

I am unfamiliar with the “BIG THREE” you are talking about.
The Big three, what?

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Good morning michael-acts17:11

Before I respond to your latest post, I noticed your favorite Scripture.....
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” (Acts 17:11)

This is indeed a good verse to bring to people’s attention: But if you are suggesting to others that they “search the scriptures daily”, you should be doing it yourself.
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You said......


This is a great example of singling out “one” point in a passage that literally has hundreds of things to say, and "going to seed" with it.
For sure, the Pharisees were “focused on behavior of others”, but if you actually READ the Bible, you will notice that Jesus hardly even notices that at all.
What Jesus is FOCUSING on here, is the Hypocrisy of the Spiritual leaders of His time.

i.e. (Hypocrisy, because while they were preaching against sin, their lives were overflowing with sin themselves.) This is what Jesus was condemning!

In fact, Jesus “commended” these very same Pharisees, for preaching against sin.....
V.1 ¶ Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
V.2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
V.3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
V.4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men’s shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers.
V.5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
V.6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
V.7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
V.8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.
V.9 And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.” (Matthew 23:1-9)
----
No Michael, I didn’t “make your point”: The Lord wants us to preach against sin; And He wants us to be dealing with our own sins also.
--------------------------------------------------
Next you said........


I can agree with this first line: (They were immature because of their sin!)
But I think you mis-typed the second line. (They lacked something that Paul could provide?) Why, because he wouldn’t provide it?
--------------------------------------------------
Also you said.....

Okey, I will.......
V.12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
V.13 For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
V.14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
V.1 ¶ Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
V.2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.” (Hebrews 5:12-14 & 6:1-2)

This is the passage you posted, but look at the next verse.....
“And this will we do, if God permit.” (Hebrews 6:3)

Therefore, we can only receive the “strong meat” of God’s Word, if He allows us to.

Also notice a few verses below this one.......
V.10 For God [is] not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
V.11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
V.12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.” (Hebrews 6:10-12)

Just as the Bible says here about God's desire, my “desire”, is “that every one of us” deal with our sin, so that we can be partakers of God’s blessings!
--------------------------------------------------
Finally you said........

I am unfamiliar with the “BIG THREE” you are talking about.
The Big three, what?

Are you saying that God is not allowing most pastors to teach beyond the most basic of doctrines? That is an excuse for spiritual immaturity, & must surely be an offence to God. "I can only preach shallow sermons because God makes me do it" is offensive; possible heretical.

If you don't believe Christ was chastising the pharisees for enslaving the people to their own extraBiblical standards, then I suggest you study the Gospels before commenting further.

The Big Three; the primary focuses of nearly every fundamentalist sermon: Salvation, repentance, & hell. Three things the mature Christian doesn't need to hear preached ad infinitum. Like teaching reading & writing to college students, it is a waste of time that doesn't benefit the hearer.

 

[stilllearning]

Great to hear from you again michael-acts17:11

I thought that I had lost you.

By the way, the reason that I am so glad to hear responses from most of the people here, is because I am “still learning” and if I am wrong in any of my ideas or beliefs, I am truly anxious to be corrected. The only proviso is, that I would like for anyone who is correcting me to use Scripture to do it.
------------------------
You asked.....

Are you saying that God is not allowing most pastors to teach beyond the most basic of doctrines?

ABSOLUTELY NOT!
This is what the Scripture actually says.....
V.1 ¶ And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.
V.2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.” (1 Corinthians 3:1-2)

It is not that God was preventing anyone from hearing the truth; It just that these carnal believers in Corinth, were too Spiritually immature(because of their willful sin), to understand anything but the basics.
Therefore Paul was “unable” to preach the “meat of the Word” to them.
Just as baby Christians, will not be able to receive many of the deep things of God.

This is how Jesus put it.....
V.12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
V.13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” (John 16:12-13)
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Then you said.......

“That is an excuse for spiritual immaturity, & must surely be an offence to God. "I can only preach shallow sermons because God makes me do it" is offensive; possible heretical.”

We can preach anything we want. But if we are wise, will only open our mouth when the Lord gives us something to say. Therefore, because the Lord knows the hearts of everyone, He will always give us, just what they need to hear.
Regardless of what we think about it.
------------------------
Next you said.......

“If you don't believe Christ was chastising the pharisees for enslaving the people to their own extraBiblical standards, then I suggest you study the Gospels before commenting further.”

Over and over and over and over again, in that passage(Matt.23:13-ff), the Lord Jesus makes it crystal clear, why he is chastising these pharisees. And that is because of their hypocrisy.
And the Lord clearly points out every aspect of their life, where they are being hypocritical.

Not one single “WORD” in the passage, talks about “enslaving the people” by any kind of “standards”. (Please, if you can find any part of this passage that says that, I would love for you to tell me about it.)

Now, when it comes to “standards”, as defined by many IFB pastors; I have had my share of confrontations with them in this area.
On one occasion, while trying to get through to an IFB pastor, I asked him to define “legalism” for me; And he came back with a smart-alec response; He said.....
“A legalist is someone who has more standards than I do!”

The response to this statement is..... “Well, who’s standards are you talking about?”
I believe in “standards”, but I don’t make that big of a deal about it because the standards that I am talking about are “Bible Standards”.

Jesus made it very clear, what we are doing if we start “teaching” MAN’S STANDARDS....
“Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.” (Mark 7:7)

Our worship becomes empty and meaningless!
------------------------
Then you kindly answered my question.......

“The Big Three; the primary focuses of nearly every fundamentalist sermon: Salvation, repentance, & hell. Three things the mature Christian doesn't need to hear preached ad infinitum. Like teaching reading & writing to college students, it is a waste of time that doesn't benefit the hearer.”

Well thank you. I had never heard these three topics referred to as “The big three”.

Now, as to preaching these three topics, over and over, again and again in the same way.....
Lets take a look at them:

(1) “Salvation”:

I believe that I could teach a series lessons on the subject of “Biblical Salvation”, every week, for 5 years and still not have gotten to the bottom of it.
None of us, can know TOO MUCH about “Salvation”; and how it touches so many hundreds of other doctrines.

Now, it could be that you are talking about simply inviting people to get saved over and over again in the same congregation. Although I can’t imagine anyone doing that.
But.... God’s Word(the Bible), tells us to repeatedly encourage every member of our congregation, to examine their hearts to make sure that they are truly saved.....
“Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?” (2 Corinthians 13:5)

And the reason this is needed, is because of the billions of “professing Christians”, who are going to find out someday, that they were not really saved........
V.21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
V.22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
V.23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matthew 7:21-23)

So there is a place, for repeatedly preaching SALVATION, even to professing Christians.

(2) “Repentance”

(Before I respond to this point, plug you ears, if you are a Calvinist)
Note: I have never met a Calvinist that believes that “repentance” is for anyone but the unsaved. The best that I can understand about their view, is that.... “We repent once to get saved and after we are saved there is no need to ever repent again”!

I have gone round and round with them, asking them if they consider themselves “sinless”; And although they admit that they are sinners, they still don’t see their sin as requiring repentance.
Therefore if you are a Calvinist, than I can understand why you hate preaching repentance to believers.

But for the rest of us “in the real world”, the word repentance means to 1st “be sorry for your sin” then 2nd “to turn from it”. For an unsaved person who wants to get saved, the 1st step is all that is required for a salvation experience(because Biblical salvation is not by good works but by Grace). But then, if that person is truly saved, they WILL follow through with the 2nd step.

It is important and needful to repeatedly preach “repentance” to everyone, because we are all sinners and we are all regularly in need of repentance; So it is good to be reminded of it over and over again.

(3) “Hell”

(To be honest, I can’t remember the last message that I heard on hell!) And I listen exclusively to IFB preaching, several times a week.

Now, the most likely reason why this subject was added to “the big three”, is because there is a growing groundswell of Baptist, who are rejecting the very existence of a “fiery hell”(and you may be one of them), therefore they detest the very mention of “hell”.

I am not wanting to derail this thread by chasing this rabbit: But I will say that I am a Bible believer and that the Bible clearly teaches about a fiery hell, where the unsaved will burn forever.




Thanks for your response.