A Personal Relationship with Jesus is not enough

Yes, I said works. What was the example you gave? Something that would be a 'good' work.

Do you remember what I said about good works?

no, I said we are saved by grace, through faith.

so now we need a certain amount of faith to be saved? I think you are going batty!

No they cannot (fallacy called false analogy)

Probably because I thought about it even a little.

Listen: how much memory do you have in your head? How do you measure that? Can you prove that you have more or less than someone else?

How high can you jump? Can you prove that you can or cannot jump higher than someone else?

I cannot compare my memory with someone else's memory the same way I could my jumping ability with someone else's jumping ability. One is measurable and one is not!

Now, if I said : give me a good jump. What the heck is a 'good' jump? How high is a good jump? Is it a percentage of my height? What is a good jump?

Do you see the difference? I hope so.....

jason

 

Jason, let's simplify this. We seem to be talking past each other.

As I understand it, some of your objections to faith&works:

1)One cannot objectively measure whether a particular work is "good"? (although you did say that works are measurable)

2) Faith&works doesn't define the quality, intent, frequency etc. of works?

Anything else?

 

My objections to grace (through faith) and works is simple:

1. It is not biblical and is actually anti-biblical (kinda important one)

2. works being necassary take away the gift of salvation

3. See #1

The points I was arguing were to show one reason why works simply do not work.

jason

 

Then it is your position that salvation is all God and we are just along for the ride?

God picks who gets grace to get faith and nothing is required on the part of the selected ones?

 

Why would you think that? Are you intentionally trying to not understand?

You give someone a gift, they can either accept it or not. There are two parties involved.

Making someone work for a gift effectively makes it a prize, not a gift.

If you want to talk about rewards, that is different topic, but salvation, being a gift, cannot be worked for.

jason

 

trying2understand,

You said...

Ah, but we do know when saving faith is legitimate.

If someone has truly entered into saving faith...rather then just playing games to please a preacher or to join a church...they are indwelt instantly at that moment by the Holy Spirit, and sealed permanently into the Body of Christ.

The person will notice that Jesus Christ has been magnified in their heart and life, and they will have new wants and desires. What once they loved(sin) will seem to lose its allure. What once they were indifferent to(the things of God) will become very attractive to them.

As is evident by the current discussion, attempting to determine when one has "worked! worked! worked!" enough to merit heaven is very difficult to quantify...but the evidence of being justified by faith alone is very clear.

God bless,

Mike

 

Is repentance necessary for salvation, or is faith alone without repentance sufficent?

 

Glad to see you haven't changed your ways just yet

It is grace, through faith (important point, no really...).

Did you read the definition of what faith is? Did you read my explanation? Did you even bother to think about it? If so, you wouldn't be asking this question.

So, why don't you go back and read the parts about what faith is and the definition I gave. Maybe if you give this topic a fair shake we can futher our discussion. This time, really read the post.

jason

 

Ok, then is one saved by grace through faith without repentance?

It's a long thread. Could you either direct me to the relevant post(s) or restate your point?

 

I don't understand the question (well, I do, but I am trying to prove a point). How can you seperate faith and repentance? Remember the definition of faith?

So, how is this even a point? I mean, how do you think you accept the grace of God?

When I give you a gift, you say "thank you".

Repentance, which is part of that whole faith thing, is how we say "thank you" and accept the gift of salvation. We have faith that our repentance is acceptable to God and we have faith that our doing so is how we accept his gift.

Also, if you are thinking of trying to make repentance a work, you would be wrong. The second you try to make repentance a work is the second that everything becomes a work and the concept loses all meaning. And specifically, you would still be unable to quantify the idea of repentance in terms of a 'good' work.

I understand, but it is frustrating to try and dialogue with someone who doesn't even bother to read the followups, or read them closely enough to count as reading comprehension. It shows a lack of respect and it irritates me. Others are guilty of it on this board, on both sides. Either way, it is unexcusable. If one wishes to discuss the topic, at least have the common decency to read the replies to which you are replying!

jason

 

Sorry, I don't see repentance in your definition.

You seem to be saying that repentance is a part of the set or principles or beliefs (or God's will) that is accepted, valued, etc. so it is in your mind a part of faith.

What about the person who doesn't consider repentance as part of the principles that they are valuing or accepting?

The sterotypical sinners prayer says somethng about "I am a sinner and I need a Savior" but does it necessarily include "I repent my sins"?

I don't think so.

If it doesn't then that is an example of faith without repentance.

So the question remains.

Is there salvation by grace through faith without repentance?

 

Really, it wasn't there? Wow...I didn't know that (sarcasm). It was, however, implied (do you know what God's will and plan are for salvation?.....)

Do you not consider repenetance? Does anyone? If someone doesn't, does that make it "right"? Just because someone believes something, does that make it true or not true?

This is logic 101, and you are failing.

Really?

First google link for search of "sinners prayer"

Second google link

So...what was your point again?

See above...

jason

 

Jason, you are reading into the definition of faith to include repentance.

I did a search of the "sinners prayer" on the web and found plenty that don't mention repentance.

In fact about a year ago I got in trouble with the webmaster on this very board because I pointed out that the sinners prayer at the top of the board at that time didn't include any mention of repenting from sin.

So, if someone has faith but no repentance are they still saved?

Don't tell me it doesn't exist.

Just tell me, "No, you are not saved by grace through faith without repentance."

 

You see, I don't think so. See below.

My honest guess is that they don't mention the one or two words you are looking for. Just a guess.

What did it say? Because it obviously mentions it now.

http://www.baptistboard.com/salvation.html

I firmly believe that faith, as defined earlier, includes repentance. It is the very nature of God's plan. The forgiveness of sins is intregral to our salvation and acknowledging that we are sinners who need a savior and accepting that savior, knowing that He payed the price for our sins, is repentance.

So if 'repentance' is the act of repenting and 'repent' is to feel contrition for something, then the sinners prayer, by it's very nature, is an act of repentance. Quite simple.

I honestly think you are trying to catch me in something that doesn't exist. Though, I admire the attempt. It shows you are at least thinking about the subject.

jason

 

I have showed plenty of scriptures that show it is grace, faith, and works. And it is not adding to the scriptures or substracting from the scriptures like faith alone.

And if you want to know what are good works that we are required to do:

Corporal works of mercy are: feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned, burying the dead, and giving alms. (See Teachings of Christ in Matthew) The spiritual works of mercy are: instructing, advising, consoling, comforting, forgiving, and bearing wrongs patiently.

 

You have just shown that you do not understand the topic.

Salvation is by grace, through faith.

It is not by 'grace, faith and works'.The only thing you could argue is that salvations is by grace through faith but that faith also includes works. That is the only thing you could argue. Saying that salvations is by 'grace, faith and works' shows a complete lack of understanding.

Is that the complete and authoritative list?

Now, how many of each is required? Would one of each suffice? Do you have to complete the list? You said 'we are required to do', so we must do these? For how long? To what degree? Does intent matter (man, broken record here, but it is important to think about intent when speaking of works, specifically, 'good' works)?

Does feeding one hungry person make it a good deed? Or do there have to be multiple hungry people? Does my family count? (do you see where this is going, T2U didn't).

Thanks,
jason

 

Jason, I know where you thought that you leading the discussion: to works can't be a part of it because "works" isn't definitively defined.

Am I correct?

You ignore that the same arguement that you wish to use against works in that regard can be equally applied to faith. It's not definitively defined.

You want to include repentance in faith because faith by your definition means doing God's will. In that case you must include being baptized and a whole slew of other "works" in your definition of faith: including feeding the hungry and caring for the sick. No?

 

Could it be that folks here have different views on what repentance means ?

 

I already told you why you cannot use this argument. Go back and read it.

No. I didn't say 'do God's will'. You are trying to build straw men.

Do you think a 'trusting acceptance of God's will' (faith) means doing God's will? So you think that the very second you sin, which is not God's will, you have no faith? Obviously you don't think that because you are not a fool. That is why what you said doesn't even come close to applying. Would you care to try again?

So...what is needed for salvation in your view. Lets just get to the point.

jason

 

Yes, I guess you could say that a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is not enough. Before you lose you cool here to my comment, read the point that I am trying to make. You must be in obedience to Jesus Christ. This is what is the necessity(Heb.5:9). You can have personal relationships with a person without devoting your utmost obedience to that person. One thing that you can be assured of though with a personal relationship with our Lord is this: He will never never leave you nor forsake you, as can happen in relationships with the people we encounter in our every day lives. Go with God.