A Personal Relationship with Jesus is not enough

[jasonW*]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
Jason, you were the one that said that works are objectively measurable. Show me by giving me the measure.

Yes, I said works. What was the example you gave? Something that would be a 'good' work.

Do you remember what I said about good works?

You are the one that says that you are saved by faith alone. You also said that faith can't be measured.

no, I said we are saved by grace, through faith.

So how do you know that you have enough faith to be saved?

so now we need a certain amount of faith to be saved? I think you are going batty!

You see, whatever arguement you have against faith & works can be equally applied to faith alone.

No they cannot (fallacy called false analogy)

Why then does your position then stand and no other?

Probably because I thought about it even a little.

Listen: how much memory do you have in your head? How do you measure that? Can you prove that you have more or less than someone else?

How high can you jump? Can you prove that you can or cannot jump higher than someone else?

I cannot compare my memory with someone else's memory the same way I could my jumping ability with someone else's jumping ability. One is measurable and one is not!

Now, if I said : give me a good jump. What the heck is a 'good' jump? How high is a good jump? Is it a percentage of my height? What is a good jump?

Do you see the difference? I hope so.....

jason

 

[trying2understand]

Jason, let's simplify this. We seem to be talking past each other.

As I understand it, some of your objections to faith&works:

1)One cannot objectively measure whether a particular work is "good"? (although you did say that works are measurable)

2) Faith&works doesn't define the quality, intent, frequency etc. of works?

Anything else?

 

[jasonW*]

My objections to grace (through faith) and works is simple:

1. It is not biblical and is actually anti-biblical (kinda important one)

2. works being necassary take away the gift of salvation

3. See #1

The points I was arguing were to show one reason why works simply do not work.

jason

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by jasonW*:
My objections to grace (through faith) and works is simple:

1. It is not biblical and is actually anti-biblical (kinda important one)

2. works being necassary take away the gift of salvation

3. See #1

The points I was arguing were to show one reason why works simply do not work.

jason

Then it is your position that salvation is all God and we are just along for the ride?

God picks who gets grace to get faith and nothing is required on the part of the selected ones?

 

[jasonW*]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
Then it is your position that salvation is all God and we are just along for the ride?

Why would you think that? Are you intentionally trying to not understand?

God picks who gets grace to get faith and nothing is required on the part of the selected ones?

You give someone a gift, they can either accept it or not. There are two parties involved.

Making someone work for a gift effectively makes it a prize, not a gift.

If you want to talk about rewards, that is different topic, but salvation, being a gift, cannot be worked for.

jason

 

[D28guy]

trying2understand,

You said...

"even though faith cannot be objectively measure."

Ah, but we do know when saving faith is legitimate.

If someone has truly entered into saving faith...rather then just playing games to please a preacher or to join a church...they are indwelt instantly at that moment by the Holy Spirit, and sealed permanently into the Body of Christ.

The person will notice that Jesus Christ has been magnified in their heart and life, and they will have new wants and desires. What once they loved(sin) will seem to lose its allure. What once they were indifferent to(the things of God) will become very attractive to them.

As is evident by the current discussion, attempting to determine when one has "worked! worked! worked!" enough to merit heaven is very difficult to quantify...but the evidence of being justified by faith alone is very clear.

God bless,

Mike

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by jasonW*:
You give someone a gift, they can either accept it or not. There are two parties involved.

Making someone work for a gift effectively makes it a prize, not a gift.

If you want to talk about rewards, that is different topic, but salvation, being a gift, cannot be worked for.

jason

Is repentance necessary for salvation, or is faith alone without repentance sufficent?

 

[jasonW*]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
Is repentance necessary for salvation, or is faith alone without repentance sufficent?

Glad to see you haven't changed your ways just yet

It is grace, through faith (important point, no really...).

Did you read the definition of what faith is? Did you read my explanation? Did you even bother to think about it? If so, you wouldn't be asking this question.

So, why don't you go back and read the parts about what faith is and the definition I gave. Maybe if you give this topic a fair shake we can futher our discussion. This time, really read the post.

jason

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by jasonW*:
It is grace, through faith (important point, no really...).

Ok, then is one saved by grace through faith without repentance?

Did you read the definition of what faith is? Did you read my explanation?

It's a long thread. Could you either direct me to the relevant post(s) or restate your point?

 

[jasonW*]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
Ok, then is one saved by grace through faith without repentance?

I don't understand the question (well, I do, but I am trying to prove a point). How can you seperate faith and repentance? Remember the definition of faith?

www.dictionary.com

faith ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fth)
n.

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

So, how is this even a point? I mean, how do you think you accept the grace of God?

When I give you a gift, you say "thank you".

Repentance, which is part of that whole faith thing, is how we say "thank you" and accept the gift of salvation. We have faith that our repentance is acceptable to God and we have faith that our doing so is how we accept his gift.

Also, if you are thinking of trying to make repentance a work, you would be wrong. The second you try to make repentance a work is the second that everything becomes a work and the concept loses all meaning. And specifically, you would still be unable to quantify the idea of repentance in terms of a 'good' work.

It's a long thread. Could you either direct me to the relevant post(s) or restate your point?

I understand, but it is frustrating to try and dialogue with someone who doesn't even bother to read the followups, or read them closely enough to count as reading comprehension. It shows a lack of respect and it irritates me. Others are guilty of it on this board, on both sides. Either way, it is unexcusable. If one wishes to discuss the topic, at least have the common decency to read the replies to which you are replying!

jason

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by jasonW*:
www.dictionary.com

faith ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fth)
n.

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

Sorry, I don't see repentance in your definition.

You seem to be saying that repentance is a part of the set or principles or beliefs (or God's will) that is accepted, valued, etc. so it is in your mind a part of faith.

What about the person who doesn't consider repentance as part of the principles that they are valuing or accepting?

The sterotypical sinners prayer says somethng about "I am a sinner and I need a Savior" but does it necessarily include "I repent my sins"?

I don't think so.

If it doesn't then that is an example of faith without repentance.

So the question remains.

Is there salvation by grace through faith without repentance?

 

[jasonW*]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
Sorry, I don't see repentance in your definition.

Really, it wasn't there? Wow...I didn't know that (sarcasm). It was, however, implied (do you know what God's will and plan are for salvation?.....)

You seem to be saying that repentance is a part of the set or principles or beliefs (or God's will) that is accepted, valued, etc. so it is in your mind a part of faith.

What about the person who doesn't consider repentance as part of the principles that they are valuing or accepting?

Do you not consider repenetance? Does anyone? If someone doesn't, does that make it "right"? Just because someone believes something, does that make it true or not true?

This is logic 101, and you are failing.

The sterotypical sinners prayer says somethng about "I am a sinner and I need a Savior" but does it necessarily include "I repent my sins"?

I don't think so.

Really?

First google link for search of "sinners prayer"

http://home.swbell.net/cshann/index0.html
Romans: Chapter 10 verse 9-10-13
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him
from the dead, thou shalt be Saved. For with the heart man
believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession
is made unto Salvation. For whosoever shall call upon the
name of the Lord shall be Saved....................

"The Sinners Prayer"
Heavenly Father:

I come to you in prayer asking for the forgiveness of
my Sins. I confess with my mouth and believe with my
heart that Jesus is your Son, And that he died on the
Cross at Calvary that I might be forgiven and have
Eternal Life in the Kingdom of Heaven. Father, I believe
that Jesus rose from the dead and I ask you right now
to come in to my life and be my personal Lord and
Savior. I repent of my Sins and will Worship you all the
day's of my Life!. Because your word is truth, I confess
with my mouth that I am Born Again and Cleansed
by the Blood of Jesus! In Jesus Name, Amen.

Second google link

http://www.sinner-prayer.com/
“Father, I know that I have broken your laws and my sins have separated me from you. I am truly sorry, and now I want to turn away from my past sinful life toward you. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again. I believe that your son, Jesus Christ died for my sins, was resurrected from the dead, is alive, and hears my prayer. I invite Jesus to become the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. Please send your Holy Spirit to help me obey You, and to do Your will for the rest of my life. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen.”

So...what was your point again?

If it doesn't then that is an example of faith without repentance.

So the question remains.

Is there salvation by grace through faith without repentance?

See above...

jason

 

[trying2understand]

Jason, you are reading into the definition of faith to include repentance.

I did a search of the "sinners prayer" on the web and found plenty that don't mention repentance.

In fact about a year ago I got in trouble with the webmaster on this very board because I pointed out that the sinners prayer at the top of the board at that time didn't include any mention of repenting from sin.

So, if someone has faith but no repentance are they still saved?

Don't tell me it doesn't exist.

Just tell me, "No, you are not saved by grace through faith without repentance."

 

[jasonW*]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
Jason, you are reading into the definition of faith to include repentance.

You see, I don't think so. See below.

I did a search of the "sinners prayer" on the web and found plenty that don't mention repentance.

My honest guess is that they don't mention the one or two words you are looking for. Just a guess.

In fact about a year ago I got in trouble with the webmaster on this very board because I pointed out that the sinners prayer at the top of the board at that time didn't include any mention of repenting from sin.

What did it say? Because it obviously mentions it now.

http://www.baptistboard.com/salvation.html

So, if someone has faith but no repentance are they still saved?

Don't tell me it doesn't exist.

Just tell me, "No, you are not saved by grace through faith without repentance."

I firmly believe that faith, as defined earlier, includes repentance. It is the very nature of God's plan. The forgiveness of sins is intregral to our salvation and acknowledging that we are sinners who need a savior and accepting that savior, knowing that He payed the price for our sins, is repentance.

www.dictionary.com

re·pent ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-pnt)
v. re·pent·ed, re·pent·ing, re·pents
v. intr.

1. To feel remorse, contrition, or self-reproach for what one has done or failed to do; be contrite.
2. To feel such regret for past conduct as to change one's mind regarding it: repented of intemperate behavior.
3. To make a change for the better as a result of remorse or contrition for one's sins.


v. tr.

1. To feel regret or self-reproach for: repent one's sins.
2. To cause to feel remorse or regret.

re·pen·tance ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-pntns)
n.

1. The act or process of repenting.
2. Remorse or contrition for past conduct or sin

So if 'repentance' is the act of repenting and 'repent' is to feel contrition for something, then the sinners prayer, by it's very nature, is an act of repentance. Quite simple.

I honestly think you are trying to catch me in something that doesn't exist. Though, I admire the attempt. It shows you are at least thinking about the subject.

jason

 

[Living4Him]

I have showed plenty of scriptures that show it is grace, faith, and works. And it is not adding to the scriptures or substracting from the scriptures like faith alone.

And if you want to know what are good works that we are required to do:

Corporal works of mercy are: feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned, burying the dead, and giving alms. (See Teachings of Christ in Matthew) The spiritual works of mercy are: instructing, advising, consoling, comforting, forgiving, and bearing wrongs patiently.

 

[jasonW*]

Originally posted by Living4Him:
I have showed plenty of scriptures that show it is grace, faith, and works. And it is not adding to the scriptures or substracting from the scriptures like faith alone.

You have just shown that you do not understand the topic.

Salvation is by grace, through faith.

It is not by 'grace, faith and works'.The only thing you could argue is that salvations is by grace through faith but that faith also includes works. That is the only thing you could argue. Saying that salvations is by 'grace, faith and works' shows a complete lack of understanding.

And if you want to know what are good works that we are required to do:

Corporal works of mercy are: feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned, burying the dead, and giving alms. (See Teachings of Christ in Matthew) The spiritual works of mercy are: instructing, advising, consoling, comforting, forgiving, and bearing wrongs patiently.

Is that the complete and authoritative list?

Now, how many of each is required? Would one of each suffice? Do you have to complete the list? You said 'we are required to do', so we must do these? For how long? To what degree? Does intent matter (man, broken record here, but it is important to think about intent when speaking of works, specifically, 'good' works)?

Does feeding one hungry person make it a good deed? Or do there have to be multiple hungry people? Does my family count? (do you see where this is going, T2U didn't).

Thanks,
jason

 

[trying2understand]

Jason, I know where you thought that you leading the discussion: to works can't be a part of it because "works" isn't definitively defined.

Am I correct?

You ignore that the same arguement that you wish to use against works in that regard can be equally applied to faith. It's not definitively defined.

You want to include repentance in faith because faith by your definition means doing God's will. In that case you must include being baptized and a whole slew of other "works" in your definition of faith: including feeding the hungry and caring for the sick. No?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Could it be that folks here have different views on what repentance means ?

 

[jasonW*]

Originally posted by trying2understand:

You ignore that the same arguement that you wish to use against works in that regard can be equally applied to faith. It's not definitively defined.

I already told you why you cannot use this argument. Go back and read it.

You want to include repentance in faith because faith by your definition means doing God's will. In that case you must include being baptized and a whole slew of other "works" in your definition of faith: including feeding the hungry and caring for the sick. No?

No. I didn't say 'do God's will'. You are trying to build straw men.

Do you think a 'trusting acceptance of God's will' (faith) means doing God's will? So you think that the very second you sin, which is not God's will, you have no faith? Obviously you don't think that because you are not a fool. That is why what you said doesn't even come close to applying. Would you care to try again?

So...what is needed for salvation in your view. Lets just get to the point.

jason

 

[eschatologist]

Yes, I guess you could say that a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is not enough. Before you lose you cool here to my comment, read the point that I am trying to make. You must be in obedience to Jesus Christ. This is what is the necessity(Heb.5:9). You can have personal relationships with a person without devoting your utmost obedience to that person. One thing that you can be assured of though with a personal relationship with our Lord is this: He will never never leave you nor forsake you, as can happen in relationships with the people we encounter in our every day lives. Go with God.