A Personal Relationship with Jesus is not enough

[DHK]

As Briguy says take the verses one at a time. First thing to note is that baptism always occurs after salvation, never before. It is an act of obedience after one is saved, and has nothing to do with salvation. Now concerning the first verse you mentioned in your list, a particularly difficult verse for many to understand, here is the meaning:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
--“Be baptized…for the remission of sinsâ€
baptized . . . for the remission of sins--as the visible seal of that remission. (Jamieson, Faucett, and Brown)

Acts 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto (eis) the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (ASV)

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto (eis) repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

The same Greek word is used in both verses translated “unto.â€
Baptize(d) unto repentance/remission
Did John baptize the Pharisees or Jews so that they would receive repentance, or because they had repented? “Unto repentance.†The answer is obvious. Go back and read the full text. Bring fruit meet (fit) for repentance. He would not baptize them unless he saw evidence of repentance. It was because they had repented that he baptized. The word “unto†or “eis†therefore has a meaning “because of,†that is, “I baptize you…because of your repentance.
In the same way “unto†or eis is used in Acts 2:38, “Repent and be baptized “because of†the remission of your sins. Baptism never results in the remission of sins, but is always given after a persons sins has already been remitted by Christ.

Thus the meaning is clear in Acts 2:38. The baptism has nothing to do with salvation. One is baptized as a result of repentance. He was baptized because he had repented, just as John baptized those who repented. He baptized "because of" the remission of sins, or because their sins had already been remitted or forgiven.
DHK

 

[Living4Him]

Technically, baptism occurs after a person makes a profession of faith. I do not hold to the belief that baptism is merely an act of obedience. I was taught that during my years of being IFB. For a Christian denomination that claims that "we hold to the Bible for all truths" no where does it state in the Bible that it is an act of obedience. The Bible clearly spells out the importance of baptism, but the baptist church twist the texts to fit their belief.

I have showed what the effects of baptism is and that it does indeed impart grace to a person and is necessary for salvation. The early church fathers held to these beliefs and I will too. I refuse to believe the beliefs that didn't come about until the early reformers.

It is your right to believe that it is merely a symbol, but I don't buy it. Never have and never will.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Living4Him:

I have showed what the effects of baptism is and that it does indeed impart grace to a person and is necessary for salvation. The early church fathers held to these beliefs and I will too. I refuse to believe the beliefs that didn't come about until the early reformers.

You have asserted that baptism imparts grace; you have demonstrated (showed) absolutely nothing. When I challenged you to make a connection from John 3:5 to the verses you listed about baptism, you could not or just refused. You haven't done a thing to demonstrate that baptism is linked to salvation in any way.

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
DHK

 

[Living4Him]

One key Scripture reference to being "born again" or "regenerated" is John 3:5, where Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

This verse is so important that those who say baptism is just a symbol must deny that Jesus here refers to baptism. "Born again" Christians claim the "water" is the preached word of God.

But the early Christians uniformly identified this verse with baptism. Water baptism is the way, they said, that we are born again and receive new life?a fact that is supported elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3?4; Col. 2:12?13; Titus 3:5).

No Church Father referred to John 3:5 as anything other than water baptism.


Well, I guess I have no idea what you are getting at.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Living4Him:
One key Scripture reference to being "born again" or "regenerated" is John 3:5, where Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

This verse is so important that those who say baptism is just a symbol must deny that Jesus here refers to baptism. "Born again" Christians claim the "water" is the preached word of God.

But the early Christians uniformly identified this verse with baptism. Water baptism is the way, they said, that we are born again and receive new life?a fact that is supported elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3?4; Col. 2:12?13; Titus 3:5).

No Church Father referred to John 3:5 as anything other than water baptism.


Well, I guess I have no idea what you are getting at.

I already addressed that post for you, to whih you had no response. I addressed your issue with the church fathers to which you had no response. I addressed your issue to water in John 3:5 being taken symbolic--which you do take symbolic--symbolic of Baptism. You failed to address that issue as well. You have not given one Scriptural answer to any post that I have given you.
You simply assert that "I am right and you are wrong," without giving any Scriptural evidence.
DHK

 

[Kathryn]

Living 4 Him:

"Born again" Christians claim the "water" is the preached word of God.

They can't agree however, some say it is amniotic fluid from the womb. That is what I usually hear here. To be born of water and Spirit however is together. Not seperated.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[DHK]

Kathryn:
Take your choice of the above two interpretations. One of them is correct, but baptism is definitely out of the picture. You cannot relate baptism to John 3:5. You only make the assertion, and then give no evidence. You too have just implied the same thing. The word baptism is not mentioned even one time in the entire chapter of John 3.
DHK

 

[Kathryn]

DHK:

Take your choice of the above two interpretations. One of them is correct, but baptism is definitely out of the picture.

No, one of the two does not have to be correct.

When the word baptism is used as in the Great Commission you guys will say baptism doesn't mean baptism. Water is not water, and baptism is not baptism. Around and around we go.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
No, one of the two does not have to be correct.

When the word baptism is used as in the Great Commission you guys will say baptism doesn't mean baptism. Water is not water, and baptism is not baptism. Around and around we go.

Matthew 28:19-20 Therefore go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. (WEB)

This is the Great Commisssion. Note the commands:
1. Go.
2. Make Disciples.
3. Baptize.
4. Teach.

Four commands. Actually, in the Greek there is only one command and all others are subservient to that one. The one command is Make disciples. That command is the only command in the imperative. All the others are commands, but they are given as command in participle form, making them subservient to the one primary command of Make Disciples. So a better translation would be:

Make Disciples,
As you go,
Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost,
Teaching them them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.

The baptism comes after one is saved and made a disciple. It is after salvation, never before. It has no part of salvation. It is subservient to salvation. It is not important compared to salvation. It is simply a step of obedience of the Christian, that is, the one who has already been saved. It is NOT part of being saved; NOT part of salvation.
DHK

 

[Kathryn]

DHK: The problem is there is only one baptism where we are given a clean conscience, we are cleansed of our sin, we die with Christ and rise with Christ. We receive the Holy Spirit, and become a child of God. Now you are going to tell me that is not the same baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit of the Great Commission, which is only a human work. You can't have it both ways.

Holy Scripture teaches there is only one baptism. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. We are born of water and the Spirit. I am not going to repeat the other thread where I supported in detail what I am saying.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
DHK: The problem is there is only one baptism where we are given a clean conscience, we are cleansed of our sin, we die with Christ and rise with Christ. We receive the Holy Spirit, and become a child of God. Now you are going to tell me that is not the same baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit of the Great Commission, with is only a human work. You can't have it both ways.

Holy Scripture teaches there is only one baptism. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. We are born of water and the Spirit. I am not going to repeat the other thread where I supported in detail what I am saying.

There is one water baptism. Your church practices a water baptism at infancy. That is a heresy. Water baptism is practiced all throughout the Bible. Take the Eunuch in Acts chapter 8, for example. The condition for his baptism was that he "believed" that Christ was the Son of God, (that which an infant can not do). After he believed, they both went down into the water. He was baptized by Philip, and they both came up out of the water. Baptism took place after his salvation, as a step of obedience, as it always does in the Bible. Don't give me the heresies of the RCC, give me Scripture.
DHK

 

[Kathryn]

DHK: I have given you Scripture. Over and over again. Look it up. I am speaking the truth to you. You just don't recognize it. Those who repented and believed in Jesus Christ with John's pre-Christianity baptism were not saved. They needed the one Baptism that Jesus Christ gave to His Church. They needed the Holy Spirit. They needed water and the Holy Spirit. It was not enough just to believe. They did not have the Holy Spirit by repenting and believing. They needed the Holy Spirit.

There is not much point going around and around when water does not even mean water, and baptism isn't baptism.

 

[jasonW*]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
The problem is there is only one baptism where we are given a clean conscience, we are cleansed of our sin, we die with Christ and rise with Christ. We receive the Holy Spirit, and become a child of God. Now you are going to tell me that is not the same baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit of the Great Commission, which is only a human work. You can't have it both ways.

Holy Scripture teaches there is only one baptism. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. We are born of water and the Spirit. I am not going to repeat the other thread where I supported in detail what I am saying.

So...the thief on the cross was or was not saved?

Oh..and what about the CC's ideas of "baptism of blood" or "baptism of desire". Are those counted in your "one" baptism?

thanks,
jason

 

[Kathryn]

The thief was not under the New Covenant, but yes he would have had baptism of desire if he had wanted to be baptised with water and Spirit and wanted to do all Christ has commanded. The person shares in the death of Christ and is born again with the Holy Spirit. There is one baptism. Scripture teaches there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism. Christian baptism is never however not "Baptism". It is never just a human work. It is always the work of God.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
Christian baptism is never however not "Baptism".

I like that Kathryn. I guess then by your admission you are not a Christian.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
DHK: I have given you Scripture. Over and over again. Look it up. I am speaking the truth to you. You just don't recognize it. Those who repented and believed in Jesus Christ with John's pre-Christianity baptism were not saved. They needed the one Baptism that Jesus Christ gave to His Church. They needed the Holy Spirit. They needed water and the Holy Spirit. It was not enough just to believe. They did not have the Holy Spirit by repenting and believing. They needed the Holy Spirit.

There is not much point going around and around when water does not even mean water, and baptism isn't baptism.

I have read all your posts. I have read the Scripture you have posted. The Scripture is meaningless unless you make it relevant to salvation which you have not. Neither you nor Living4Him have made any connection with baptism and the new birth (John 3:5). It is not there. You can't do it. You, in fact, haven't even made an attempt to do so. Baptism is always, always found as an act following salvation. Show me an instance in the Bible where it isn't. Show me an instance in the Bible where there is an infant being baptized. That is heresy. You spout off your heresies on this board, and cannot defend them from the Bible. If your going to state some heretical doctrine then do it from the Bible. Otherwise don't post it.
DHK

 

[Kathryn]

I have gone over all this with you on the other thread about church unity. I posted all the Scriptural references to what I said. It's gone on for I think over 10 pages. I am not going to repeat it all. You were there.

Christian baptism is with water and the Spirit. It is done as commanded by Jesus Christ in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Christian dies with Christ and rises with Christ. He is made a child of God, a new creation. His sins are forgiven. He is given a clean conscience. I am a Christian. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. I need to get ready for Holy Thursday services tonight. I will keep you guys in my prayers.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
Christian baptism is with water and the Spirit. It is done as commanded by Jesus Christ in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Christian dies with Christ and rises with Christ. He is made a child of God, a new creation. His sins are forgiven. He is given a clean conscience. I am a Christian. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.

So where in the Bible does it teach this heretical concept that baptism makes you a child of God? Where is the Scripture that teaches that??
Still waiting.
DHK

 

[Kathryn]

So where in the Bible does it teach this heretical concept that baptism makes you a child of God? Where is the Scripture that teaches that??
Still waiting.

Romans 6:4
Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

I am a child of God, the Father, through baptism.

Boy, I am glad I am a Catholic. I have been blessed.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
Romans 6:4
Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

I am a child of God, the Father, through baptism.

Boy, I am glad I am a Catholic. I have been blessed.

There is nothing in that verse that makes you a child of God through baptism. It is not talking of salvation at all. Paul is addressing the saints in Rome (check the first chapter). These people were already saved. They had already trusted Christ as their Saviour.
To them he writes that "WE have been buried with Him through baptism into death"
As Christ was buried in the heart of the earth when he was dead, so, when we are immersed completely in the water, we are buried in that water symbolizing our death to our old life of sin and ungodliness.

"so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life."
As Christ was raised from the dead" Notice "as." This word in itself makes it a similie, a comparison, a likenes--symbolic.
As Christ was raised from the dead...so we too might walk in newness of life.
When the believer arises out of that water which he is immersed in he arises in a new life. That is what it picutres--his new life in Christ which he received when he trusted Christ as His Saviour. Paul is writing to Christians explaining the significance of baptism which takes place after salvation. It pictures death to the old life of sin, and rising again to a new life in Christ. It is that simple. It could never apply to infants, for infants are not capable of turning from their old life (ie., repenting), and beieving on Christ, to receive that new life in Christ. This does not give you salvation. It does not make you a Christian. It does not forgive your sin. It only gives you a picture of what baptism symbolizes.

I am still waiting how you relate baptism to salvation.
DHK