A Personal Relationship with Jesus is not enough

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by paidagogos:
Nope, your exegesis is faulty. James does not contradict Paul since both were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Actually, James is differentiating between a dead, sterile cognitive belief, as evidenced by the demons, and true saving faith of the Christian.

So you are saying that a sterile cognitive faith is one without works, which would not justify you.
And faith with works (or as James says works and not by faith alone)justifies man.
How do you then morph this into justification by faith alone? [/b]</font>[/QUOTE]No, you don’t want to understand the difference here. Obfuscation is thine! You just want to justify your position rather than letting Scripture plainly speak. You’re trying to rationalize God’s Word to your viewpoint. Okay, let’s try it your way.

Let see if I can simplify this for you. Suppose a lost sinner comes under conviction for his sin and bows his head to accept Christ as his Saviour. Upon confessing Christ, is he immediately, instantaneously saved? If so, suppose he immediately has a heart attack and dies? Does he go to heaven? If he is saved and goes to be with Christ, what works does he have to accompany, or validate, his faith? Then, would not he be saved by faith alone? Works follow faith, but works are not necessary for obtaining or retaining salvation that precede them. After Salvation, works are the basis for reward or loss of reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:10).

Please consider and answer:
1. What works are necessary for Salvation?
2. How many works are necessary for Salvation?
3. Where in Scripture does God tell us what works are necessary for Salvation?
4. How you square the necessity of works for Salvation with Romans 9:11, Romans 11:6, Ephesians 2:9, and Titus 3:5

 

[JustAsIAm]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by neal4christ:
Good point, Ron. Exactly what I was trying to get at in a round about way.

In Christ,
Neal

Ain't this fun?

</font>[/QUOTE]

 

[neal4christ]

If he is saved and goes to be with Christ, what works does he have to accompany, or validate, his faith?

Come on, now. Don't you think God would take into account the fact this sinner did not have a chance for good works? After all, it is God who prepares the good works for us to walk in (Eph. 2.10).

Let's flip it around. Say this sinner goes on to live for 50 years and never goes back to church or anything of that nature. He knows he should do things differently, but doesn't see the point when he enjoys certain things that some consider "sinful." Yet he believes the gospel and truly believes he is saved and has assurance of this because of the pastor saying that if he prayed this prayer he would be saved (which is a works oriented approach to salvation as well). Is this man saved? Will he go to heaven?

In Christ,
Neal

 

[neal4christ]

By the way, I don't think Catholics believe that good works save you. If I am not mistaken, they believe that salvation is wholly because of God's grace.

In Christ,
Neal

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You may have heard it said that Scripture is its own best commentary.

I have. However, it confuses me a bit when all these different ones claim the same "truth" and yet end up with so many different interpretations, all based on using Scripture to interpret Scripture. I used to hold firmly to that, but it gets a bit frustrating when we all claim this and yet end up arguing over the interpretation of a passage. If it was so clear cut it seems to me there would not be so much disagreement. Makes sense in my simple mind!

In Christ,
Neal </font>[/QUOTE]Yep, it's a real problem when we try to sort it out in our minds. It is not primarily a cognitive, rationalizing process. It is a faith process with illumination of the Holy Spirit after regeneration when He takes up residence within the believer. The human mind, of all things, is terribly wicked, depraved, deceitful, and proud. It devises all kinds of evil and wicked imaginations. Furthermore, it is severely limited so that it cannot anywhere nearly attain to God's level of understanding and wisdom. We cannot fully comprehend a part, much less the whole of reality. We cannot only accept God's revelation and live by faith. If we would only be obedient to the knowledge that God has given us .................... Well, you pretty much see where I'm going.

Bye!

 

[JustAsIAm]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
Ain't this fun?

Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth

I Corinthians 13:4-6

 

[neal4christ]

It is a faith process with illumination of the Holy Spirit after regeneration when He takes up residence within the believer.

So those who do not agree with you are either not regenerated or do not have as much faith or the Holy Spirit? Ahh....I see.

In Christ,
Neal

P.S. By the way, you are preaching to the choir about the human mind and heart (Jer. 17:9). Which is exactly my point with all these individuals running around claiming their interpretation is correct.

 

[Johnv]

A personal relationship with Christ is all you need for salvation. However, it is not all you need to live a Godly life.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
By the way, I don't think Catholics believe that good works save you. If I am not mistaken, they believe that salvation is wholly because of God's grace.

In Christ,
Neal

Those who believe in baptismal regeneration (as the Catholics do) believe in a works salvation. Baptism is a work.
DHK

 

[neal4christ]

Praying a prayer is work.

In Christ,
Neal

 

[BobRyan]

Thomas Bokenkotter's "A Concise History of the Catholic Church" pg 49

"at first the Christian presbyter or elder avoided any resemblance to the pagan or Jewish priests and in fact even deliberately refused to be called a priest.
He saw his primary function (instead) to be the ministry of the word...but the image of the Christian presbyter gradually took on a sacral character.

This sacralization of the clergy was brought about by various developments...the Old Testament priesthood was seen as a model for the NT priesthood (gradually). The more elaborate liturgy of the post-Constantine era, with it's features borrowed from paganism, enhanced the image of the minister as a sacred personage. The ministry of the word diminished in importance when infant baptism became the rule, for infants could not be preached to...

Before Constantine the whole church was considered the realm of the sacred as opposed to the profane world outside; after Constantine and the breakdown of the separation between church and the world, the polarity between sacred and profane was transformed into one between sacred clergy and profane laity"

The "Work" becomes a "magic art" where "powers of the priest" and magic phrases replace "Faith" in the individual.

But as Pope Peter said "Baptism now saves you - but NOT the holy water or the magic of water touching the skin - RATHER it is in the APPEAL to God for a clean conscience"

The RCC view of "works" in that case - is something akin to "magic" performed by the priest - hence the gap between the "sacred clergy" administering sacraments with "power" to save - vs the profain laity.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
Praying a prayer is work.

In Christ,
Neal

You're right. Prayer is one of the greatest works that a Christian can do. It was such a difficult work that when Jesus prayed in the garden there were as it was great drops of blood coming from his brow. Prayer is work. We are commanded to travail in prayer. Travail is a word that infers hard work, even labor. Prayer is work; I will not argue that fact.
However, it is not prayer that saves. Pray the rosary a thousand times a thousand and it will not save you. Neither will the "sinner's prayer" save you. Muttering off the words of any prayer will not save anyone.
Hannah prayed from her heart. Her words were not heard. Only her lips moved. But no sound came.
"If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Salvation is not in the words of a prayer. Salvation comes from the heart. It comes from the faith that is put in the Saviour, whether or not that prayer is actually formed into audible words, as a prayer. One calls upon the Lord with their heart in faith. We are saved by faith, not by works.
DHK

 

[D28guy]

Neil4Christ...

You said...

"is it not a logical conclusion that without any works a person is really not justified?"

Thats not what I was speaking of. What I said has nothing to do with what will be the result of our being justified, but rather what is required to be justified.

And that is faith alone. To add works to what is necesarry to be justified is to proclaim a false gospel.

God bless,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

Trying2Understand...

I said...

"Justification through faith alone is essential. God feels so strongly about it that he curses any gospel that includes works of any kind as necesarry for our justification.

Works/fruit/evidence flow from our justification...which becomes ours through faith alone."

And you said...

"James appears to believe differently."

It will if you mis-interpret James 2:24.

God bless,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

"However, it confuses me a bit when all these different ones claim the same "truth" and yet end up with so many different interpretations, all based on using Scripture to interpret Scripture."

You must have never read Romans 14...

"Who are you to judge anothers servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day above another, another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, to the Lord observes it. And he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it....But why do you judge your brother..."

Earlier other differing beliefs where brought up, like wether meat should be eaten that had been offered to demonic false gods. The particular problems were "hot buttons" of that day, that surely people got all hot and bothered about. Probably got contentious. We could plug in multitudes from our day and age, just like they had multitudes then.

But the point is, we are told in advance...by God Himself...that we will have differing convictions regarding things, and we are even told how to deal with it when it happens.

Thats why its actually comical when catholics and others who are of the same persuasion in this regard, bring up this absurd *problem* of different convictions in the evangelical world.

As if the catholics were unified, of course, which they arent.

They are branched off in multitudes upon multitudes of little sects and isms. When challenged on that, they get a little nervous and say "Well...ah...(cough cough)...um...SCHOOLS! Yes!...thats it, these are different schools of thought in the Catholic world!"

In our camp its chaos and disorder...in the catholic world its "schools of thought"(wink)

Oh well, so it goes...

Blessings,

Mike

 

[neal4christ]

Mike,

Please show me where "faith alone" is mentioned in the Bible.

In Christ,
Neal

 

[neal4christ]

DHK,

I understand what you are saying about prayer, and even agree with it!

However, why do you have no problem "expecting" a prayer to follow real faith, but have issues with good works following real faith?

In Christ,
Neal

 

[neal4christ]

Mike,

Is it okay to have differing opinions about Baptism, the Lord's Supper (Communion, Eucharist, etc.), women pastors, etc?

In Christ,
Neal

 

[Living4Him]

Peace of Christ to all!

Can someone please explain to me why we are to put more importance on what Paul or James wrote with regard to justification than what came straight from Jesus?

It is quite clear in Jesus' teachings that justification, and thus salvation, is accomplished in a unity of faith and works. This whole process is made possible soley by the Grace of God.

 

[D28guy]

Living4Him,

Nobody puts more importance on any part of scripture. It is all important. But it is true that the fullness of new covenant doctrine was revealed by God in the epistles, and mostly through Paul.

Their are many things that Jesus spoke briefly on, or just alluded to. But then in the epistles God gave chapters, pages, and entire books of clear, detailed instruction on the very things Christ alluded to.

As one example, Christ spoke concerning the truth that no one puts new wine in old wineskins. In the epistles, however, the truth that the new covenant operates in a different way then the old is thundered home with reams and reams of scriptures, and in clear languagee.

About 2/3rds of Hebrews. All of Galatians, etc.

Jesus even told us that he spoke of many things vaguely, or obscurly, but the day would come when He would speak to them clearly regarding the Father.

The epistles.

Just as the old testament is divided into different sections, or types of revelation(Historical books, prophetic books, the Law, wisdom, etc), likewise the new testament is the same way. Historical(gospels and acts), prophetic(revelation), pastoral, and doctrinal, wich usually refers to the Pauline epistles like Romans, Galacians, Collosians, Ephesians, etc.

Many times we interpret the old testament in light of the new. In the same way, many times we interpret the gospels in light of the epistles.

But it has nothing to to with any scripture being more important.

God bless,

Mike