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A Personal Relationship with Jesus is not enough
- Thread starter Born Again Catholic
- Start date
I don't have an issue with works following faith, or following salvation. A saved person is created unto good works (Eph.2:8-10). But salvation itself is only by grace through faith, and that not of works. That statement alone says that it is of faith alone. It cannot be by works. What James teaches is that if there is no works then was that faith real to begin with. Works if the product of genuine faith in Christ. But works can never save, and is not part of salvation.Originally posted by neal4christ:
DHK,
I understand what you are saying about prayer, and even agree with it!However, why do you have no problem "expecting" a prayer to follow real faith, but have issues with good works following real faith?
In Christ,
Neal
DHK
neal4christ
New Member
Absolutely, 100% agree!
In Christ,
Neal
trying2understand
New Member
If faith without works is not faith then faith without works doesn't save.
Then faith alone doesn't save.
I don't know what you are reading, but Holy Scripture says that Salvation is not of works. Holy Scriptures tell me that Justification is what Jesus did on our behalf when he Died to take away the penalty for All the sins of the world, thus justifying us before the throne of God. Holy Scriptures tell me that FAITH in God is what Sanctifies us, that is, separates the sheep from the goats. Thus it is FAITH ALONE that saves us.
Absolutely, 100% agree!
It is Jesus Christ that saves. In that, there is no argument. It is his sacrificial work on the cross that provided us with the opportunity of salvation. That work of salvation was all of grace. He paid it all. It was all of the grace of God. There was no part of man in the sacrifice of Christ.
However, the only way that a man can be saved is to appropriate that work of grace, that atoning sacrifice to himself. He does that by faith, and faith alone. It is not by baptism, by joining a church, or any other work. It is by believing in the sacrificial work of Christ, provided to us by the grace of God.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
Have faith alone....
"For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God not of works, lest any man should boast."
1 John give the believer evidence of how one can know that he is a true believer:
1 John 2:3-4 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
The commandments mentioned here are not the O.T. law, but the teachings of Christ. We know that we are Christians by the obedience that we have to Christ. Thus good works follow salvation.
DHK
Neil4Christ,
There are some limitations, however. The RCC view regarding their "eucharist" is idolatrous. Some "Churchs of Christ" beliefs about water baptism say that ones sins are only remitted during the act of water baptism(known as baptismal regeneration), and some say only if the words they like are used. That turns salvation into a works based system, and becomes problematic.
When foundational truths are denied we have a problem. If they are not denied, we are to "let our brother be fully convinced in his own mind".
It doesnt mean we cant discuss, and push for what we believe to be true. Nothing wrong with that. But we should always remember we are on the same "team", and are co-laborers in the harvest.
God bless,
Mike
Yes, of course it is. There are lots of differeng views on things like that, and we are not to fall out with others, but rather to "agree that we disagree, agreeably", and join forces in bringing in the harvest. Baptism. Women pastors. Lots of areas.
There are some limitations, however. The RCC view regarding their "eucharist" is idolatrous. Some "Churchs of Christ" beliefs about water baptism say that ones sins are only remitted during the act of water baptism(known as baptismal regeneration), and some say only if the words they like are used. That turns salvation into a works based system, and becomes problematic.
When foundational truths are denied we have a problem. If they are not denied, we are to "let our brother be fully convinced in his own mind".
It doesnt mean we cant discuss, and push for what we believe to be true. Nothing wrong with that. But we should always remember we are on the same "team", and are co-laborers in the harvest.
God bless,
Mike
Living4Him
New Member
In Matt 25:31-46 are many examples of doing good works, proclaimed by Jesus Christ. There is the separation of the sheep from the goats which relate to, the feeding of the hungry, clothing of the naked, visiting the sick and those imprisoned, and more. Notice that both the sheep and the goats believed, but only the sheep did good works. In verse 46, Jesus cautioned as to what will be the reward of those who do not do these things, and of those who do, "And these will go into everlasting punishment, but the just into everlasting life."
neal4christ
New Member
DHK,
I think T2U said it well:
Neal
I think T2U said it well:
In Christ,
Neal
Ray Berrian
New Member
A faith trust in Jesus is all that we need to make us fit for Heaven. He is our justification, regeneration, sanctification and glorification. [Romans 8:29-30]
Try to remember this verse:
'And ye are complete in Him, Who is the Head of all principality and power.'
The New International Version refers to this verse in this way.
'For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, Who is the Head over every power and authority.' [Colossians 2:9-10]
We are secure in God's hands. [John 10:27-29]
Martin Luther believe in justification by faith; [Roman 5:1] what part of this passage do you not understand?
Any other view is salvation by faith plus 'keeping up your payments to God' through 'good works' or obedience to all the church's rules and/or sacraments.
We as Christians do not complete the salvation that He is working in us; it is all of grace. [Ephesians 2:8-10]
Try to remember this verse:
'And ye are complete in Him, Who is the Head of all principality and power.'
The New International Version refers to this verse in this way.
'For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, Who is the Head over every power and authority.' [Colossians 2:9-10]
We are secure in God's hands. [John 10:27-29]
Martin Luther believe in justification by faith; [Roman 5:1] what part of this passage do you not understand?
Any other view is salvation by faith plus 'keeping up your payments to God' through 'good works' or obedience to all the church's rules and/or sacraments.
We as Christians do not complete the salvation that He is working in us; it is all of grace. [Ephesians 2:8-10]
neal4christ
New Member
I don't understand why we Protestants emphasize Romans so much and neglect James, rather than reconcile both and give them equal weight, since they are both a part of God's Word.
In Christ,
Neal
In Christ,
Neal
Ray Berrian
New Member
Neal4Christ,
The Book of James was written to say that genuine faith in Jesus will insure 'good works' coming from the saved soul. That's all. Read also, Ephesians 2:8-10]
In fact James does not say that we will be saved by our works, but rather that 'Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness . . . ' These are the exact teachings of the Apostle Paul in Romans 4:3. 'Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. How much closer could the Lord have re-emphasized these verses in Romans and James?
Once we have received Christ's righteousness by faith in Jesus, we are signed, sealed, and will be delivered to Heaven and everlasting life. There are no conditions in John 3:16 other than to truly believe and trust in the Jesus who died for sins on the Cross.
We have the seal of the Spirit on us when we say yes to Jesus. Ephesians 4:30 says, 'Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, wherebyyou are sealed unto the Day of redemption.'
You either believe God's holy Word or you try to hammer out your own concept as to how to get to Heaven to see Jesus. He is still and forever will be the only Mediator. [I Timothy 2:5]
The Book of James was written to say that genuine faith in Jesus will insure 'good works' coming from the saved soul. That's all. Read also, Ephesians 2:8-10]
In fact James does not say that we will be saved by our works, but rather that 'Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness . . . ' These are the exact teachings of the Apostle Paul in Romans 4:3. 'Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. How much closer could the Lord have re-emphasized these verses in Romans and James?
Once we have received Christ's righteousness by faith in Jesus, we are signed, sealed, and will be delivered to Heaven and everlasting life. There are no conditions in John 3:16 other than to truly believe and trust in the Jesus who died for sins on the Cross.
We have the seal of the Spirit on us when we say yes to Jesus. Ephesians 4:30 says, 'Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, wherebyyou are sealed unto the Day of redemption.'
You either believe God's holy Word or you try to hammer out your own concept as to how to get to Heaven to see Jesus. He is still and forever will be the only Mediator. [I Timothy 2:5]
neal4christ
New Member
Ray,
I do NOT believe that works save you. In light of your post, I simply reiterate what T2U has already said:
Neal
I do NOT believe that works save you. In light of your post, I simply reiterate what T2U has already said:
In Christ,
Neal
In Christ,
Neal </font>[/QUOTE]What T2U said clearly contradicts Eph.2:8,9.
There is no place for works in salvation.
Thus "if faith without works is not faith"
is a wrong premise to start with.
Eph. 2:8,9 without using the exact wording, teaches faith alone, without works.
DHK
Neol4Christ,
It is those who preach the false gospel of faith plus works who ignore handfulls upon handfuls of scripture in order to continue to hold to a false view of justification...by mis-interpreting James.
God bless,
Mike
I've been born again now for 22 years and have never met one evangelical who neglects James. We do take into consideration Romans and James.
It is those who preach the false gospel of faith plus works who ignore handfulls upon handfuls of scripture in order to continue to hold to a false view of justification...by mis-interpreting James.
God bless,
Mike
Neil4Christ...
If you cant affirm that, then what you just said is just "lip service", but not true.
You cant say its a lie to say we are justified by faith alone, and that we must have works to be saved...and then turn around and say you dont believe works contribute to your salvation.
You cant have it both ways. Its one or the other...works are needed or they arent.
God says they arent. Faith and faith alone justifies, and saves, us.
The works flow from our justification, but have no part in it.
To add works to the gospel turns it into a false gospel that will not save.
God bless,
Mike
If you really mean that then you will joyfully affirm that you are justified by faith alone.
If you cant affirm that, then what you just said is just "lip service", but not true.
You cant say its a lie to say we are justified by faith alone, and that we must have works to be saved...and then turn around and say you dont believe works contribute to your salvation.
You cant have it both ways. Its one or the other...works are needed or they arent.
God says they arent. Faith and faith alone justifies, and saves, us.
The works flow from our justification, but have no part in it.
To add works to the gospel turns it into a false gospel that will not save.
God bless,
Mike
neal4christ
New Member
I do not believe faith or works save you. Only God's grace saves us, which Ephesians 2:8 affirms. If you say faith alone saves, you have nullified God's word. It is neither faith nor works that saves. I can't help it that you don't like the notion that real faith has works with it. I have no issue with it.
In Christ,
Neal
In Christ,
Neal
Ray Berrian
New Member
Jesus saves. There is nothing that we can contribute toward our final salvation. Christ and His grace saves us; faith in Jesus Christ is affirming that we want Him to do the work.
Do Christian ministers and laity make themselves more acceptable to the Lord because we have served the Lord for years, than a sinner who just sensed that his sins have been forgiven?
I am saying that the newly transformed sinner is just as accepted by Jesus as us.
Christian ministers and laity will be receiving great rewards, because of service, but the sinners justification will stand just as well as our regeneration.
Do Christian ministers and laity make themselves more acceptable to the Lord because we have served the Lord for years, than a sinner who just sensed that his sins have been forgiven?
I am saying that the newly transformed sinner is just as accepted by Jesus as us.
Christian ministers and laity will be receiving great rewards, because of service, but the sinners justification will stand just as well as our regeneration.