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A Practical Question for Secret Rapture, Pre-tribulationists
- Thread starter KenH
- Start date
KenH
Well-Known Member
If you go to www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?seriesOnly=true&sourceID=lvfpc&keyword=Eschatology&keyworddesc=Eschatology you will hear plenty of strong Biblical exegesis that knocks the theory of pretrib premillennialism flat on its back.
That is correct. But as I said I am as certain as I can be this side of the appearing and revelation of Christ Jesus that the pretrib premill theory is false. So I don't think that will be a problem for me.
One redeemed by Christ's blood,
Ken
Ray Berrian
New Member
There is a special coming for the saints of all ages; it won't be a 'secret' because of what God says in I Thess. 4:16. {a shout from the Lord; the voice of the archangel; and the sounding of a trumpet and opened and abandoned graves} Does this sound like a 'secret rapture?' Will not the wicked people hear this event and take notice of the empty graves and living saints that have disappeared?
I believe the following passages refer to the same coming and gathering together: 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:23, 52. I don't believe in a 3rd coming.
http://www.geocities.com/postrib
Ray Berrian
New Member
posttrib,
Why does God say that He is going to raise only the saints at this event? [I Thess. 4:17] Why does He not raise also the unbelievers at this coming? There are reasons behind God's sovereign moves in this world.
Why does God say that He is going to raise only the saints at this event? [I Thess. 4:17] Why does He not raise also the unbelievers at this coming? There are reasons behind God's sovereign moves in this world.
KenH
Well-Known Member
There is no mention of what happens to the lost in these verses. You are assuming they are left here for 7 additional years. It is a presupposition of pretrib premill theory. There is also no mention of Christ gathering additional Christians to Himself after an additional 7 years in the verses that follow. Again that is a presupposition of pretrib premill theory that is read into the text.
One awaiting for the appearing and revelation of Christ Jesus on the final day,
Ken
Ray Berrian
New Member
Ken,
There is something said about the lost being dealt with later in God's timing, in Revelation 20:5. The saved dead are raised at the rapture [I Thess. 4:17] while the lost are raised after the Millennial Reign of Christ [Revelation 20:5a] in Jerusalem [Zechariah 14:2, 9, 17].
He does not raise the wicked from the dead at the rapture [I Thess. 4:17] otherwise the words, ' . . . the dead in Christ will rise first and WE (Paul & the church) which are alive and remain shall be caught up . . . ' become meaningless. At the rapture Christ only comes for His own people. He will not be done yet with the rebellious wicked people in His world. Even when 'the Devil is released from the bottomless pit for a little season' [Rev. 20:3] he will still be deceiving the remaining lost people in the world. Upon their death (hypothetically speaking) Christ would again have to raise these remaining ones to be judged. What I am saying is that only after the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth, will He bring all wicked people into His judgment. [Rev. 20:11-15].
There is something said about the lost being dealt with later in God's timing, in Revelation 20:5. The saved dead are raised at the rapture [I Thess. 4:17] while the lost are raised after the Millennial Reign of Christ [Revelation 20:5a] in Jerusalem [Zechariah 14:2, 9, 17].
He does not raise the wicked from the dead at the rapture [I Thess. 4:17] otherwise the words, ' . . . the dead in Christ will rise first and WE (Paul & the church) which are alive and remain shall be caught up . . . ' become meaningless. At the rapture Christ only comes for His own people. He will not be done yet with the rebellious wicked people in His world. Even when 'the Devil is released from the bottomless pit for a little season' [Rev. 20:3] he will still be deceiving the remaining lost people in the world. Upon their death (hypothetically speaking) Christ would again have to raise these remaining ones to be judged. What I am saying is that only after the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth, will He bring all wicked people into His judgment. [Rev. 20:11-15].
KenH
Well-Known Member
I don't think EagleLives911 is saying that her cats are saved in the human sense of being saved from sin. Rather she is saying that in the new heavens and earth the redeemed will have their pets with them. Since none of us have been in the new heavens and earth yet, I certainly wouldn't dispute that.
One redeemed by Christ's blood,
Ken
What gets me is you all are worried about your loved ones that haven't found Jesus yet but you are so concerned about your pets in the tribulation?... I'm not pre ,post nor preterist but I do believe Jesus will return to take his children home and that's really all that matters... Brother Glen 
Note that no verse promises us a resurrection before the tribulation.
I believe the resurrection and changing of all Christians into their immortal bodies will occur at a single point in time, at the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52), at the 2nd coming of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:23), and that this is why it says "the first resurrection" will also include all of us Christians who will die in the tribulation (Revelation 20:4-5).
I believe the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture/resurrection would require that the 1st resurrection (Revelation 20:4-6) be the 2nd, that the 2nd coming (Hebrews 9:28) be the 3rd, and that the last trump (1 Corinthians 15:52) be the 9th from last (Revelation 8:6), so that it would not really make sense of scripture.
http://www.geocities.com/postrib
Note that no verse promises us a resurrection before the tribulation.</font>[/QUOTE]Do you not see how you have let your presuppositions determine your exegesis? You have not proved your point; you have assumed it and denied that it is impossible to prove the alternative. I think Scripture does promise a resurrection for some before the tribulation (1 Thess 4:17). And there is no verse that proves otherwise.
How does that verse or passage promise a resurrection for some before the tribulation?
http://www.geocities.com/postrib
There seems to be a concern about lost loved ones who may be left behind on Rapture/Resurrection Day. There is also a "stretched" concern about what will happen to our dogs/cats/horses, etc., etc., when saved ones are raptured.
The reason we get all shook up about whos gonna be left behind is because we right now we have a limited view of God's judgment upon the Earth and her inhabitants. For the most part, us believers have never felt the fury of God's judgment--our judgment has been cast upon Jesus when He hung on the cross.
When the saved are raptured/resurrected then the judgment will begin. So intense will this judgment be that it will make what happened during the Holocost look tame! The Antichrist will be introduced and will make Hitler appear as if he just came home from Sunday School and will make his SS men look like Boy Scouts!
When judgment begins--those of us with Christ will understand as He does. And we will fully understand the "WHY's?" and the "WHO's" of those involved in the judgment. We'll understand why our unsaved Granny's and our unsaved Sheltie's had to be left behind. Sounds cruel--but listen--the only thing that's cruel in God's eyes are those who laid the whip upon Jesus' back! The only ones cruel in God's eye are those who refused Jesus and Savour and Lord.
As for the dogs/cats/horses, etc left behind--well, that problem will be solved by antichrist!
The reason we get all shook up about whos gonna be left behind is because we right now we have a limited view of God's judgment upon the Earth and her inhabitants. For the most part, us believers have never felt the fury of God's judgment--our judgment has been cast upon Jesus when He hung on the cross.
When the saved are raptured/resurrected then the judgment will begin. So intense will this judgment be that it will make what happened during the Holocost look tame! The Antichrist will be introduced and will make Hitler appear as if he just came home from Sunday School and will make his SS men look like Boy Scouts!
When judgment begins--those of us with Christ will understand as He does. And we will fully understand the "WHY's?" and the "WHO's" of those involved in the judgment. We'll understand why our unsaved Granny's and our unsaved Sheltie's had to be left behind. Sounds cruel--but listen--the only thing that's cruel in God's eyes are those who laid the whip upon Jesus' back! The only ones cruel in God's eye are those who refused Jesus and Savour and Lord.
As for the dogs/cats/horses, etc left behind--well, that problem will be solved by antichrist!
How does that verse or passage promise a resurrection for some before the tribulation?</font>[/QUOTE]I have already posted this information in several places as well as given sources where it is supported in detail.
MissAbbyIFBaptist
<img src=/3374.jpg>
I believe the rapture will take place before the millinial rein, before the plagues and all that. Personaly, I don't believe that our pets go to Heaven when they die because they have no soul. They can't repent of there sins, because if you don't have a soul to save, how are you going to Heaven? {I hear the Humane Society comming already
} Yes, sarcasim is intended! I'm sorry, but this is a question I would expect my 6 year old sister to bring up, not from someone grown!
I'm more worried about my unsaved dad and brother, that I am my cat going to Heaven!
I'm sorry if I've offended you or anyone else, but come on...!
In our Savior, {and running from the Humane Society }
Abby
} Yes, sarcasim is intended! I'm sorry, but this is a question I would expect my 6 year old sister to bring up, not from someone grown!I'm more worried about my unsaved dad and brother, that I am my cat going to Heaven!
I'm sorry if I've offended you or anyone else, but come on...!
In our Savior, {and running from the Humane Society
}Abby