I can't agree with the fundamentalism of the SBC churches around here, or of the denomination after the fundamentalist takeover. But I am not a liberal, either. There are liberal mainline churches here, but I couldn't be a part of them. I'm strongly pro-life and anti-sodomite marriage and ordination.
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- Thread starter Rebel
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I can't agree with the fundamentalism of the SBC churches around here, or of the denomination after the fundamentalist takeover. But I am not a liberal, either. There are liberal mainline churches here, but I couldn't be a part of them. I'm strongly pro-life and anti-sodomite marriage and ordination.
You may want to check out a SBC anyway Rebel. They are autonomous. You may find one that suits you. I would think they would be much closer to your doctrinal belief than the other denominations you listed.
*or have you already checked them out?
Sabbaths’ Feast of Christ Home Assemblies (Reformed Protestant Faith)
To joy in the Fellowship of Christians persuaded by God of the sanctity of the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD your God for to be the Lord Jesus’ Day of Worship-Rest.
The urgency of Sabbaths’ celebration for the Christian Faith and Church, springs from the knowledge of the energy of God’s operation in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Ephesians 1:17-23.
The Sabbath, its engagement and enjoyment, are grounded in Divine Election and Predestination and realised in the “Gospel of God concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord”, whom God the Father “Declared the Son of God with Power according to the Spirit of Holiness by resurrection from the dead:— by Whom we have received Grace for the obedience of the Faith for His Name among all nations, among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ, to the end ye may be established and comforted by the mutual faith in the Gospel of His Son.” Romans 1:1...12.
Therefore we remember and celebrate “The Lord’s Day”, Sabbaths’ Eating and Drinking of the Lord’s Feast, holding to the Head nourishment being ministered, growing with the growth of God, proclaiming Jesus Christ Raised from the dead. (Col2:12-19)
“Where two or three are gathered together
in My Name, there I am in the midst of them.”
We are not a ‘Church’ – new, or, another!
We do not take money or favours!
We don’t have nor desire an ‘earthly tabernacle’ to worship!
We do not want ‘growth’ in numbers!
We do not ‘count the nation’ or record attendance!
We do not baptise!
We do not convert!
We are few, and will stay few.
We believe because God had given us faith first.
We love because God first loved us.
We love the Fellowship of Christ, and in Christ.
We love the Name of God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
We love the fear of God and His Word Proclaimed.
We love the pure Gospel of God’s free Grace.
We love the knowledge and increase in the knowledge of Christ.
We are not ashamed of, nor let ourselves be judged with regard to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. (Ro1:16, Col2:16)
Therefore we remember and celebrate “The Lord’s Day” Sabbaths’ Eating and Drinking of the Lord’s Feast, holding to the Head nourishment being ministered, growing with the growth of God, proclaiming Jesus Christ Raised from the dead. (Col2:12-19)
“For this cause we do not cease to pray that ye might be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding.” (Col1:9)
‘Singing in our heart to the Lord’, we ‘sing with the spirit and with understanding’, ‘speaking to ourselves in Psalms’. (Col3:16, 1Cor14:15, Eph5:9,19)
We abhor self-righteousness or ‘legalism’.
We abhor self-satisfaction or complacency.
We abhor boasting or distinction of men.
... to join in Sabbath’s Celebration and Fellowship through the study and proclamation of the Word ‘according to the Scriptures’...
Confession of Faith
I believe in God, the Almighty, Father, Creator
of heavens and earth,
and in Jesus Christ his only-begotten Son, our Lord,
conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary,
who under Pontius Pilate suffered and was crucified,
who descended into hell, died and was buried
and on the third day according to the Scriptures rose
from the dead,
who ascended to heaven and sits on the right hand of
the power of God,
hence He shall come to judge the living and the dead,
I believe in the Holy Spirit;
I believe one Christian Church of the elect,
the holy communion of believers,
the forgiveness of sin, the everlasting life and the resurrection,
in the glorified body of flesh.
I believe the Scriptures, the true, only and closed canon
of authority for and in the faith, doctrine and living.
God speaks in the Scriptures
through his Spirit in the Congregation
of the Son in Whom we have life.
The Election of God :
The reconciliation and justification in Jesus Christ of those
according to God’s Eternal Predestination and Purpose
in Covenant of Grace elected and
in the Baptism of Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit
sealed and attested in regeneration and sanctification
of repentance and conversion, of redemption from sin, and
of growth and perseverance in faith.
The Lord’s Supper of bread, wine and the washing of feet,
as through faith partaking
of Jesus Christ, of his body and of his blood,
his Salvation proclaiming and Return expecting.
The Lord’s Day
the Sabbath of the Lord thy God,
for God concerning the Seventh Day thus spoke,
and God on the Seventh Day from all his works rested
according to the working of the exceeding greatness
of his mighty power which He wrought in Christ
when He raised Him from the dead
and finished all his works He had made
to reign, the King, for ever and ever.
Notice, this is our 'HOME' Church Assemblies.
I suspect Rebel might have a problem with your belief that Jesus did not shed any actual blood with the exception of his tears in the Garden Of Gethsemane and your belief that the Roman guards sexually abused our Lord during the scourging. Just sayin'!!!
How about trying them?
Ohhhh man......just saying that would get you labeled (probably thrown in jail) in Progressive New Jersey.
EWF, the thing is, PBs are 5-point Calvinists, and I'm a 0-point Calvinist.
Plus, they don't have musical instruments, and I'd miss that.
One must have the guitarEWF, the thing is, PBs are 5-point Calvinists, and I'm a 0-point Calvinist.
I like my instruments as well.
0 point? Not even perseverance of the saints?
One must have the guitar
I like my instruments as well.
0 point? Not even perseverance of the saints?
Not even that. Although I can see the reasoning behind it better than OSAS, and I do believe there is some distinction between the two.
Well sir....out of the "anti-calvinists" (not intentionally labeling you) on this site. You are true and consistent to your teachings. I disagree, but applaud you for having a consistent theology. I do believe it on makes sense to be 5 or 0. I respect you for holding a noncontradictory theology.
Thank you.
I would not say that I'm "anti-Calvinist"; I'm just not a Calvinist. I am not an Arminian, either. Classical Arminians believed in total depravity while I do not. I also do not believe in original sin, mot the way Arminians believe it. I'd say my views are ablend of Anabaptist and Eastern Christianity, not necessarily Eastern Orthodoxy, but Christianity as it is believed in the Eastern, Greek world as opposed to the Latin, Western world. The latter has sees things in a rational, legal way; the East in a more 'mystical' way.
"Arminian" is used among theologians to describe a certain flavor of Synergism. One does not have to be an Arminian en toto in order to be called Arminian in their soteriology. I prefer the terms Synergist and Monergist because they get right to the core of the issue.
I would just ask what is being done to keep your fellowship open? It has been there a long time, perhaps, with concerted effort, it can remain there. It may be an opportunity for you, and other members, to fight for it. Perhaps a change in leadership? Emphasis on visitation?
It's easy to offer suggestions, I know, but this would be the time to focus on keeping it open, so the question would be what can the members do to see that come about.
Good luck, I pray you will not have to find another fellowship.
God bless.
Thank you, Darrell.
The problem with this area is that it's lost population over the years. There used to be a Boy Scout camp here when I was younger, but it closed a few years ago. The reason given was that it was too isolated! There are hardly any young people here now; there are no jobs, and it's too far to drive somewhere else. So, people have moved out. Years ago, there were lots of small hill farms. But it got to the point where people couldn't make a living farming those hill farms. My dad was one of those. We had 160 acres when I was a kid, but we had to sell it.
Our little church is one of those old-fashioned white frame buildings with two doors on the front, such as was common many years ago. I'd hate to see it go to nothing, but it looks like that's where it's headed.
Under the circumstances, I wonder if you might consider finding a congregation that holds the closest doctrines to that of your present church body. The few remaining congregants in your present church probably should do the same. The picture I am getting is one that doesn't look to change in your existing fellowship. There isn't much you can do when demographics change as they have in your area.
Anyway, I hope you find church that will utilize your knowledge to the fullest. You have so very much to offer any body of believers.
Anyway, I hope you find church that will utilize your knowledge to the fullest. You have so very much to offer any body of believers.
Walter, unfortunately I think that's right. I don't believe anything will change. And I really don't know of any nearby church which is that close to us in doctrine. They share the name "Baptist", but they're fundamentalist and we're not. We're not liberal, either. I would say we're conservative on a lot of things and moderate on a few. We hold to traditional morality. We don't see anything wrong with women ministers, although we've never had one and never had any female members who felt called to pastoral ministry.
So, we're isolated out here, in more ways than one.
I truly appreciate your kind words.
I agree that it would be a shame to see such an old fellowship fall away.
In reading a few of your posts I was tempted to repost yesterday but didn't, because I do not want you take this the wrong way, and mean no insult. But seeing that you do not believe in original sin and make it clear that you are not Calvinistic in your beliefs (I am not Calvinist but there are a number of things I might be found in agreement with them on, such as the depravity of man) I might suggest to you that despite the fellowship you (or I) attend, it is doubtful that you are going to find a collective unity among any given congregation (though I will say that certain groups maintain a closer unity because their doctrine stands apart from others and they are united, at least, on those fronts).
The point is this: while you may not agree with everything that is embraced by your fellowship, that does not mean those you fellowship with must be despised or thought not to belong to the Lord. I do not necessarily speak of the groups many consider cults, but the more mainstream among the denominations. For example, I have met Charismatics that are more conservative than some fundamentals I have know, and vice versa. I have met Catholics that understand that Christ alone can save.
So why do they still attend?
Because of the Body. In other words, because of their love for the people they fellowship with. If I were to depart from my own fellowship because I disagreed with my Pastor, or knew that there are many that know very little of the Doctrine that is actually in the Statement of Faith...I would have sought another fellowship years ago. The problem with that is this: I would find the same thing wherever it is that I settled when I left there, lol.
I have, in the past several years, considered what it means to be a "Baptist." The truth is that Baptists range in a diverse collection of beliefs in which, as this forum might show, might call for a separation between these "Baptists" on a doctrinal level. But again, the same diversity can be found in most fellowships. It may be that in a small congregation, such as yours might be, that this is less an issue, but, in larger groups you will find it.
All of that to get to one point: you yourself might want to look at your own doctrinal perspectives, and it might be that you may not be that different in views from those you say you are not one of. Take for example the depravity of man, which if I remember correctly you say you do not embrace. If you do not that can mean only that you believe that men have within themselves the ability to hear, understand, and believe the Gospel. While I would suggest that neither a historical Calvinist or Arminian view would endorse that, today this view would place one more in an Arminian camp. Which you say you are not.
Original sin? Perhaps you could explain what you think Original Sin speaks to and why you do not embrace that, and what it is you do embrace about Man's condition in regards to sin.
Again, not trying to offend, but for me, having since salvation attended more Fundamental Independent Baptist Churches, it is just unusual to me to think Doctrines such as these are not embraced, though I do not think we have to make these issues exclusive to Calv/Arm debates, because they are issues which have to be answered by every group, regardless of denominational affiliation.
Another issue I would raise, in regards to the population issue is this: don't think there are not people who will not drive a good distance to attend a fellowship they can relate with. We drive 30-35 minutes to the fellowship we attend, and would actually go a little further in order to attend a Bible teaching fellowship. So you may consider, in your visitation efforts, extending your borders. Think about it like this: your fellowship closes, and one day someone knocks on your door, tells you about their fellowship forty minutes away, and as you talk you see that your doctrinal views are similar.
Would you at least go and try that fellowship out? Likely you would, and likely those you invite would too.
Lastly, have you guys considered bringing in new leadership? It's a tough call, but an option that has arisen in similar situations I have been familiar with. Not that it is the leadership's duty to increase the fellowship (as one preacher said, "Shepherds don't make sheep...sheep make sheep!" lol), but a good Preacher and Pastor can make a difference.
Okay, just a few thoughts, and again, good luck with whatever happens. I am sure the Lord will make provision one way or another, that you might be found in the House of God...somewhere.
God bless.
Darrell,
Thank you for your detailed, thorough post. You have not insulted or offended me at all. I appreciate the things you wrote and the good points you made.
My view of original sin is much like the Eastern orthodox and Anabaptist/Mennonite views. Here is an excerpt from an article that is pretty close to what I believe:
"The Eastern Orthodox's version of original sin is the view that sin originates with the Devil, "for the devil sinneth from the beginning. (1 John iii. 8)".[64] They acknowledge that the introduction of ancestral sin into the human race affected the subsequent environment for humanity (see also traducianism). However, they never accepted Augustine of Hippo's notions of original sin and hereditary guilt.
Orthodox Churches accept the teachings of John Cassian, as do Catholic Churches eastern and western, in rejecting the doctrine of Total Depravity, by teaching that human nature is "fallen", that is, depraved, but not totally. Augustine Casiday states that Cassian "baldly asserts that God's grace, not human free will, is responsible for 'everything which pertains to salvation' – even faith." Cassian points out that people still have moral freedom and one has the option to choose to follow God. Colm Luibhéid says that, according to Cassian, there are cases where the soul makes the first little turn, while Augustine Casiday says that, in Cassian's view, any sparks of goodwill that may exist, not directly caused by God, are totally inadequate and only direct divine intervention ensures spiritual progress. and Lauren Pristas says that "for Cassian, salvation is, from beginning to end, the effect of God's grace."
Eastern Orthodoxy accepts the doctrine of ancestral sin: "Original sin is hereditary. It did not remain only Adam and Eve's. As life passes from them to all of their descendants, so does original sin." "As from an infected source there naturally flows an infected stream, so from a father infected with sin, and consequently mortal, there naturally proceeds a posterity infected like him with sin, and like him mortal."
The Orthodox Church in America makes clear the distinction between "fallen nature" and "fallen man" and this is affirmed in the early teaching of the Church whose role it is to act as the catalyst that leads to true or inner redemption. Every human person born on this earth bears the image of God undistorted within themselves. In the Orthodox Christian understanding, they explicitly deny that humanity inherited guilt from anyone. Rather, they maintain that we inherit our fallen nature. While humanity does bear the consequences of the original, or first, sin, humanity does not bear the personal guilt associated with this sin. Adam and Eve are guilty of their willful action; we bear the consequences, chief of which is death."
I believe I have read of some others here who have similar views.
I have considered and am still considering what you suggested: Trying to find another church that I could attend in good conscience. One problem is that I'm not Pentecostal, and I don't believe in infant baptism. That cuts down on my potential options considerably. Maybe I should just try to decide based on what church I believe practices the love of God the most. I have visited many churches within 50 miles over the last couple of years. Unfortunately, I believe many of them function more as clubs than as churches. Church should be more than meeting on a Sunday. People should care for and help each other, and be involved in each other's lives. I haven't found that yet in a church, except in our tiny church. I'll continue to look.
About leadership, no one wants to come here. I sometimes preach at our church, when we can't get someone to come.