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A Proposition: True Or False ?
- Thread starter Rippon
- Start date
True regarding "a" cause, based upon various scripture but one that specifically states such is 2 Thes 2:10-12.Rippon said:
I like the way the ESV states verse 10 and 12 but here they all are in the ESV:
This is also not speaking of God not knowing His own, but that we are 'under' condemnation (but not yet eternally condemned) but when we totally reject the truth (and only God knows when this takes place) we find according to scripture it is only then that they are damned, and it is 'for this cause' that God sends them a strong delusion to believe (or continue to believe) their lie and not be saved.
The other 'cause' is the rejection of truth God reveals to man through various means like nature and the conscience and or even other people. This rejection of the truths that God reveals to them (even though they have not heard the specific gospel message) brings them to damnation (Rom 1 - again it states even there - For this cause God gave them over)
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Rippon said:
==I agree with the statement, but it is more than that. People are condemned because we are all sinners who deserve condemnation. To be saved by grace, from what we justly deserve, we must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. To be saved a person must believe that Christ died for their sins and rose again (1Cor 15:1-3), they must also confess Him as their Lord (Rom 10:9). Agreeing to historical facts is not enough, one must have true faith in Christ in order to be saved. A person who has true faith in Christ believes that He died for them to save them from their sins, they believe that He bodily rose again on the third day, and they believe that He is Lord (Master) and worthy to be obeyed. They may not have a full understanding of all of that but, at a basic level, they trust the Lord Jesus totally. Simply believing that Jesus died for them (and/or for others) is not enough, saying a prayer is not enough, being good is not enough, cleaning up their life is not enough, going to church is not enough. In order to be saved a person must turn to Christ in faith.
I actually disagree with the proposition of the OP. If one does not believe that Christ died in particular for him/her does not cause a sinner's damnation or condemnation.
The Gospel is not -- believe Christ died for you.It is not that God loves you.
First, one has to repent and believe that the gospel is the true Word of God. One has to believe that Jesus who is revealed in the Bible is God's only way of salvation. Salvation is escape from one's sins which separates people from God.
Second, one needs to understand that there is a link between faith and salvation.
Third, the Holy Spirit brings conviction of the need for the Savior -- because of his/her sin. That's because he/she becomes "weary and heavy-laden" as the KJV expresses it.All who come into the hearing of God's Word do not have a such a burden.
Fourth: There is a casting of one's self on Christ alone in reaction to the promises of the Gospel that Christ will receive all who come to Him and turn none away.
At this point, and not before, there is assurance of the love of God and that Christ's death was for this person in particular.
All of the above was due to the work of the Holy Spirit of God.
So, all who hear the Gospel are not led to believe that Christ died in particular for him -- but only those who have gone through such a process as I have dealt with earlier.Those who merely hear are condemned because they have not believed the truth of God's Word.
The Gospel is not -- believe Christ died for you.It is not that God loves you.
First, one has to repent and believe that the gospel is the true Word of God. One has to believe that Jesus who is revealed in the Bible is God's only way of salvation. Salvation is escape from one's sins which separates people from God.
Second, one needs to understand that there is a link between faith and salvation.
Third, the Holy Spirit brings conviction of the need for the Savior -- because of his/her sin. That's because he/she becomes "weary and heavy-laden" as the KJV expresses it.All who come into the hearing of God's Word do not have a such a burden.
Fourth: There is a casting of one's self on Christ alone in reaction to the promises of the Gospel that Christ will receive all who come to Him and turn none away.
At this point, and not before, there is assurance of the love of God and that Christ's death was for this person in particular.
All of the above was due to the work of the Holy Spirit of God.
So, all who hear the Gospel are not led to believe that Christ died in particular for him -- but only those who have gone through such a process as I have dealt with earlier.Those who merely hear are condemned because they have not believed the truth of God's Word.
With respect to my 6th post... the following is from J.I. Packer's Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God.
The fact is that the New Testament never calls on any man to repent on the ground that Christ died specifically and particularly for him. The basis on which the New Testament invites sinners to put faith in Christ is simply that they need Him... and that those who receive Him are promised all the benefits that His death secured for His people. What is universal and all-inclusive in the New Testament is the invitation to faith, and the promise of salvation to all who believe. (page 68)
The fact is that the New Testament never calls on any man to repent on the ground that Christ died specifically and particularly for him. The basis on which the New Testament invites sinners to put faith in Christ is simply that they need Him... and that those who receive Him are promised all the benefits that His death secured for His people. What is universal and all-inclusive in the New Testament is the invitation to faith, and the promise of salvation to all who believe. (page 68)
Bartimaeus
New Member
A proposition T/F
Rippon, you posted:
The Gospel is not -- believe Christ died for you. It is not that God loves you.
1) Are you saying that a person does not need to understand the basic principle of the substitutionary death of Christ to be saved? (i.e. Christ died for me) The fog may be in my own mind, please help me to understand what you are saying.
Gal 2:
20 I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself FOR ME.
2) Why do you say that the Gospel is not that God loves you? Do you mean for the individual or......are you saying that God does not love the unrepentant sinner or..........I don't understand.
Bartimaeus
Rippon, you posted:
The Gospel is not -- believe Christ died for you. It is not that God loves you.
1) Are you saying that a person does not need to understand the basic principle of the substitutionary death of Christ to be saved? (i.e. Christ died for me) The fog may be in my own mind, please help me to understand what you are saying.
Gal 2:
20 I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself FOR ME.
2) Why do you say that the Gospel is not that God loves you? Do you mean for the individual or......are you saying that God does not love the unrepentant sinner or..........I don't understand.
Bartimaeus
More From Packer's Book
It is obvious that if a preacher thought that the statement,'Christ died for every one of you', made to any congregation, would be unverifiable, and probably not true, he would take care not to make it in his gospel preaching. You do not find such statements in the sermons of, for instance, George Whitefield or Charles Spurgeon [ or in any sermons in the book of Acts --Rip]... For preaching the gospel,... means inviting sinners to come to Jesus Christ, the Living Saviour, who, by virtue of His atoning death, is able to save all those who put their trust in Him. What has to be said about the cross when preaching the gospel is simply that Christ's death is the ground on which Christ's forgiveness is given.And this is all that has to be said.(pages 67,68 )
The gospel is, 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, who died for sins, and now [presents ] you Himself as your Saviour.' This is the message which we are to take to the world... our job is to point them to the living Christ, and summon them to trust in Him. (page 69)
It is obvious that if a preacher thought that the statement,'Christ died for every one of you', made to any congregation, would be unverifiable, and probably not true, he would take care not to make it in his gospel preaching. You do not find such statements in the sermons of, for instance, George Whitefield or Charles Spurgeon [ or in any sermons in the book of Acts --Rip]... For preaching the gospel,... means inviting sinners to come to Jesus Christ, the Living Saviour, who, by virtue of His atoning death, is able to save all those who put their trust in Him. What has to be said about the cross when preaching the gospel is simply that Christ's death is the ground on which Christ's forgiveness is given.And this is all that has to be said.(pages 67,68 )
The gospel is, 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, who died for sins, and now [presents ] you Himself as your Saviour.' This is the message which we are to take to the world... our job is to point them to the living Christ, and summon them to trust in Him. (page 69)
PK said:
Sad.
Because when you get to heaven (if you are indeed going there), you will find a lot of Calvinists there and then you will have to confront your Savior and ask Him why He saved those Calvinists when you, and only you, deserve the right to be there because you are not a Calvinist and you have always hated those damned Calvinists, and if for some reason you find John Calvin there, what are you going to do ?
Demand that he be sent to hell ?
Demand that Christ revoke your salvation because you cannot bear the thought of staying in the pure presence of your Savior with those damned, unrepentant, hell-deserving, prideful Calvinists breathing the same heavenly air that you are then breathing and plucking from the same fruit of the same tree that you, and only you, deserve to be eating from ?
How sad when ignorance and pride rear their ugly heads together.
Well...
So a good Calvinist pastor not only won't give and invitation (because he can't offer salvation to every "whosoever" present) but now he has to "pitch" his "limited atonement" caveat into the gospel messages, too?
Makes me wonder if the story of the "Three Little Pigs" is a parody on Calvinists who, when the get to heaven, find they've built their "mansions" of "wood, hay, and stubble." :tear:
Calvinism was (and apparently still is) just another form of "political correctness," folks. It adds NOTHING to the relationship between man and God but TOTALLY circumscribes relationships, based on a particular theological viewpoint (like the ones just expressed by rippon and Pinoy), between some men and other men (used to be just between Protestants and Catholics but now it's every man against his neighbor).
But go ahead and learn as much as you can about it. Maybe one day you will be part of the "majesterium" or the "Sadducees," the "lawyers" that Jesus thought were so smart -- NOT!
skypair
So a good Calvinist pastor not only won't give and invitation (because he can't offer salvation to every "whosoever" present) but now he has to "pitch" his "limited atonement" caveat into the gospel messages, too?
Makes me wonder if the story of the "Three Little Pigs" is a parody on Calvinists who, when the get to heaven, find they've built their "mansions" of "wood, hay, and stubble." :tear:
Calvinism was (and apparently still is) just another form of "political correctness," folks. It adds NOTHING to the relationship between man and God but TOTALLY circumscribes relationships, based on a particular theological viewpoint (like the ones just expressed by rippon and Pinoy), between some men and other men (used to be just between Protestants and Catholics but now it's every man against his neighbor).
But go ahead and learn as much as you can about it. Maybe one day you will be part of the "majesterium" or the "Sadducees," the "lawyers" that Jesus thought were so smart -- NOT!
skypair
windcatcher
New Member
I'm not sure I understand the question cause
It is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgement:
For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
The wages of sin is death. But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our LORD.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved. He that believeth on Him is not condemned but he that believeth not is condemned already because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
We pass from judgement to life by believing in the Son. Until faith comes we are dead in our sins.
So I guess my answer is condemnation is already judged of every person. When grace comes and faith enters and a person believes, he passes in that moment from condemnation into life...........
Hmmmmmm..... still leaves questions doesn't it.... like 'If we're not sinners 'cause we sin.... but we sin because we ARE sinners (this is not found in the Bible so I don't know which scriptures support or refute this 'common' saying)... then what about the child..... who's life is taken before he can receive understanding? Is he 'innocent' because he was too young to understand and have faith? Is he condemned because he's a sinner and of the first Adam's seed?
David remarked once that he was conceived in sin and iniquity..... But when his first born of Bathsheba died in infancy, he had hope that though his son would not come back to him..... yet he would go to his son one day. some where in the NT speaking of the believing and unbelieving spouse, where the marriage holds..... that the marriage and the children are 'sanctified' by the believing spouse? What does 'sanctified' mean in this instance and does it relate to the eternal destiny of a child.....particularly if he should die? (Sorry..... this goes off topic..... but please indulge, with thanks for your patience and grace.)
It is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgement:
For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
The wages of sin is death. But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our LORD.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved. He that believeth on Him is not condemned but he that believeth not is condemned already because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
We pass from judgement to life by believing in the Son. Until faith comes we are dead in our sins.
So I guess my answer is condemnation is already judged of every person. When grace comes and faith enters and a person believes, he passes in that moment from condemnation into life...........
Hmmmmmm..... still leaves questions doesn't it.... like 'If we're not sinners 'cause we sin.... but we sin because we ARE sinners (this is not found in the Bible so I don't know which scriptures support or refute this 'common' saying)... then what about the child..... who's life is taken before he can receive understanding? Is he 'innocent' because he was too young to understand and have faith? Is he condemned because he's a sinner and of the first Adam's seed?
David remarked once that he was conceived in sin and iniquity..... But when his first born of Bathsheba died in infancy, he had hope that though his son would not come back to him..... yet he would go to his son one day. some where in the NT speaking of the believing and unbelieving spouse, where the marriage holds..... that the marriage and the children are 'sanctified' by the believing spouse? What does 'sanctified' mean in this instance and does it relate to the eternal destiny of a child.....particularly if he should die? (Sorry..... this goes off topic..... but please indulge, with thanks for your patience and grace.)
As you rightly point out, we first become sinners (and "die") because we sin (Ezek 18:20). Afterward, we sin because we are sinners and one sin leads to another -- we've lost our "fear of God."windcatcher said:
He is "'innocent' because he was too young to understand."
The whole concept of sin nature, original sin, all sinned in Adam (ergo, we're "born dead")... they're all a misconstual of scripture mainly identified with the church's early misapplication of the ordinance of baptism ---- that is, baptizing infants to cleanse them from "original sin," etal. All such is rubbish and overtruns the faith of many in this way ... who is going to trust in "your God" Who damns innocent children?! And for those who were baptized, how are you going to convince them that they are sinners since that nature has been "corrected" already?
Not to mention that if we were "born dead" (some even say that the zigote or fetus are "dead in sin"), our "rebirth" -- being "born again" -- would really be our first birth.
Sanctified means "set aside" in some way. In this case, physically the child is "set aside" by God to the believing parent to teach it spiritual truths. That doesn't mean it is saved. It means that it has a special privilege from God through that parent to come to Christ.
skypair
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True.
If one doesnt believe that Christ died for him personally, then how can Christ be the sacrificial lamb? The Bible teaches that Christ took my place on the cross and paid for my my sins.....if I dont believe that, then how can I trust in Him for salvation?
My salvation is only available to me because of Christ's suffering. How can I obtain forgiveness while denying that?
AJ
If one doesnt believe that Christ died for him personally, then how can Christ be the sacrificial lamb? The Bible teaches that Christ took my place on the cross and paid for my my sins.....if I dont believe that, then how can I trust in Him for salvation?
My salvation is only available to me because of Christ's suffering. How can I obtain forgiveness while denying that?
AJ
Bartimaeus
New Member
Proposition T/F
I may not agree to the sarcasm that PK promotes in his post, yet I cannot understand why you folks call yourself calvinists and do not baptise babies. Did calvin teach that water washes away original sin? Did he not advocate the sacremental dunking?
Bartimaeus
pinoybaptist said:
I may not agree to the sarcasm that PK promotes in his post, yet I cannot understand why you folks call yourself calvinists and do not baptise babies. Did calvin teach that water washes away original sin? Did he not advocate the sacremental dunking?
Bartimaeus
Jarthur001
Active Member
Bartimaeus said:
I could say the same to Non-Calvinist. But I understand this is poor logic, and I hope you will see it as well.