richard n koustas
New Member
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
a "purposelessness" driven life
- Thread starter 2Timothy4:1-5
- Start date
It isn't that simple. What they post on their website and what Warren actually puts in his books aren't necessarily the same. Remember, the enemy is subtle. Warren misquotes scripture by using awful translations and then he wrests verses out of context to try and make them say what he wants. All the while, the gospel message is so faint it is hardly discernable.
I wrote an analysis of his teaching on "exponential church growth" that has plenty of evidence of his abuses. Here it is:
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/questions/RickWarren_growth.html
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
You can accuse him of weak exegesis and hermeneutics and possibly over-influence from secular marketing and the Crystal Cathedral folks. But Satan, evil, deceptive? Come on!
I know of many fundamentalists whose exegesis and hermeneutics are much worse and much more damaging to the Christian body than Rick Warren's fluff.
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
Fair enough. And I believe that many Christians of all stripes, fundamentalist, conservative and liberal are also sincerely deceived and their actions are not helping the body of Christ. The difference with Rick Warren is that he has a large following.
My questions were directed at those who threw out accusations of Satan, evil and deception towards Rick Warren.
Christ is all we need. Pagans read the Bible and study it. Most of the chruch is filled with disobedient vessels. The majority of people in churches today never share their faith. The majority never lead one person to Christ. So what does that say about another Bible Study?
I would dare say if the average pastor started getting the church out on a weekend once a month he would get some flack from a lot of people declaring it the poorest way of evangelism. They will shrink from declaring the truth standing in fear of man instead of the fear of God. </font>[/QUOTE]Preach it Brother. We can Bible Study and never believe, but what we wish to believe. We water down so much of His Word to bring it down here to be more agreeable to the princes of this world. I do however believe if only all would use the five "W's" with How, it would all become clear.
Picking just one subject>>>>>the grape juice just won't cut it. We make our own rules, and to heck with what His Word says, and what Jesus did, and all the Apostles, and all kingdom peoples, and Christians did (some still do); but not we enlightened. The Baptist church thinks we are all John The Baptist, and it just ain't so.
This one example of what those that make their own rules will miss in heaven for not believing His Word.....I feel sorry for the women (and men) that say "lips that have touched liquor or wine shall never touch mine". If it is a sin down here, or we refuse because of what we think may be wrong, then we sacrifice our liberty and freedom in Him. As sin, or wrong thinking will not be allowed up there, don't stand in line to "kiss your savior". Unbelief is without reward.
Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12
IveyLeaguer
New Member
I'm your Huckleberry. But I'm not accusing anybody of anything, personally. I don't know Warren and don't know whether he's deceived or whether he is consciously asserting a false gospel and serving a false Christ. For several years I thought he was well-intentioned but now I'm not so sure. Right now, I'd guess he just doesn't believe the gospel as it is written - like his mentor Robert Schuller and many others, he just prefers another gospel.
But you are right to want to see the evidence. False teaching and distortion of God's Word is a very serious thing. God absolutely HATES it, as He has made clear over and over again throughout the Scriptures.
So simply go to the link I referenced above and start reading. There are more than 100 articles there. There are a few I don't agree with and some authors I'm not wild about but when you're finished you will have a good understanding of what the PDM is really about.
I should point out again that this thing has breadth but it also has great depth. There is plenty of info linked on this page to expose the mechanics of it, but it is not the easiest reading (this is a very complex and sophisticated deception, and it takes some time for anybody to take it all in). But the inner workings are not limited to the PDM or CGM, but apply to other movements within and without the church. So the effort required will pay off many times over and for many years to come. It is well worth it, and IMHO, knowledge every Christian is going to need.
I am thankful there are Christians who are concerned. God needs people who care enough about His Truth to stand on His Word, and He needs them right now. We must remember that, like it or not, we are involved in a War between God and Satan and it is intensifying. Some people believe the War will get even more and more intense and will not let up this time. I agree with them. IMO, there are new and more difficult battles just ahead and, as His Bride, we need to become battle-hardened in order to withstand. Either way, this deception is our battle to fight and we must defend ourselves and protect our own ranks. To be sure, there are other battles ongoing right now but in the United States, this is probably the major one. And right now, the true church is taking a merciless pounding.
Godspeed.
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
I assume you've read most of those 100 articles. Please highlight one piece of evidence with these "false teachings" of Rick Warrens (with quotes from his works) that isn't simply an example of poor hermeneutics that you disagree with but actual Satanic deception.
He is not causing confusion. It is those who are stupid enough to mock God by following Rick Warren's plan and not listening to the Holy Spirit and implementing God's plan. some may be Warren's ideas and God wants us tro use them. But how the Holy Spirit leads may be none of Warren's plans. God is not like an tootpaste tube that when you squeeze out comes product. Rather He is God and will not be reproduced and mocked.
Early on many Southern Baptists would not even acknowledge Rick Warren until he got famous and they could not ignore him. They did not like him because he didn't start that church the SBC way. He went by faith without any help from the SBC.
I have heard Rick Warren say that what one hears in his conferences may or may not work in their congregation. The majority of Baptists in America seldom hear sermons on the role of the Holy Spirit or from the gospels and so they resort to a methodology spewed out from the headquarters or another "successful" church of the denomination.
George Barna wrote a book a few years ago about how a church imitated Willow Creek exactly and grew rapidly and then declined rapidly back to where it was over about a two years period. They were doing things according to a man made plan and not God's. When we humble ourselves and glorify God then he will exalt us at the proper time when we are ready and He sees fit.
Who do we see taking seriously 2 Chron 7:13-14, "If I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or if I command the locust to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among My people, and My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin and will heal their land."
guitarpreacher
New Member
PDL summarized is that you were created by God to be loved by him and love him back. Your purpose in life is to worship God, Grow to be more like Christ, get connected to a church family, serve Christ in ministry, and share the Gospel with others. Now that right there is some scary, evil, sinister, satanic, stuff. We should burn RW at the stake for reading his Bible and coming up such insane ideas.
You may not like the translations that RW uses in the book, that's okay. You may not like preachers that wear Hawaiian shirts and loafers with no socks. That's okay too. You may not like contemporary music or worship services planned to be seeker sensitive. That's your choice. But to say that PDL is unbiblical, or worse satanic and evil, means you haven't read the book and are ignorant of what it really says, or you know what it says and are deliberately misleading others to push some other agenda.
I would love to hear of one false doctrine promoted in PDL or PDC.
You may not like the translations that RW uses in the book, that's okay. You may not like preachers that wear Hawaiian shirts and loafers with no socks. That's okay too. You may not like contemporary music or worship services planned to be seeker sensitive. That's your choice. But to say that PDL is unbiblical, or worse satanic and evil, means you haven't read the book and are ignorant of what it really says, or you know what it says and are deliberately misleading others to push some other agenda.
I would love to hear of one false doctrine promoted in PDL or PDC.
WallyGator
New Member
Kinda reminds me of the "frog in the boiling water" story. Need to know when to jump out of the kettle!
Also, my grandpappy told me, <paraphase> Bible study is just like sex, every little bit is good."
Also, my grandpappy told me, <paraphase> Bible study is just like sex, every little bit is good."
IveyLeaguer
New Member
I assume you've read most of those 100 articles. Please highlight one piece of evidence with these "false teachings" of Rick Warrens (with quotes from his works) that isn't simply an example of poor hermeneutics that you disagree with but actual Satanic deception. </font>[/QUOTE]I would if time permitted. And yes, I've read most of them. My purpose in this thread was to warn my brethren about a different gospel that is being presented as the gospel of Jesus Christ. I've done that. And if it's not the gospel of Jesus Christ, whose gospel do you suppose it is? I serve the Christ of the Bible, and the evidence shows that RW and Robert Schuller do not represent the Christ of the Bible. So it has to be another 'Christ', and therefore a false one.
The evidence is there. But since I'm in the middle of moving, you'll have to read it and do the work for yourself. I've shown you where to find it. I would have much appreciated someone pointing me to it - but instead I had to do the hard digging for myself.
[ April 06, 2005, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: IveyLeaguer ]
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
No time for one? That is really telling.
guitarpreacher
New Member
Like my grandpappy said to me many times - "Huh???"
IveyLeaguer
New Member
If you wanted to have a sincere, mature discussion about a serious matter that would be one thing. I'll not address your straw man or your ignorant defense of the CGM/PDL. The information is there if you want it.
I don't participate in childish, verbal duals, and this is the first time I've had to avoid one.
I STAND ON MY POSTS. All 259 of them.
You can have your erroneous posts about PDL and Saddleback Church back, Ivey. I sure wouldn't want to stand on that muck.
One cannot link "Willow Creek" and the "seeker sensitive" philosophy to Saddleback. Apples and oranges. Saddleback presents its services as straightforward Church, not some watered-down music/drama/ditty as Willow Creek does.
One cannot accuse Saddleback as "weak" doctrinally. They hold to the BFM 2000 of the Southern Baptist Convention (they are SBC, you know). They preach the gospel and baptize by immersion.
One might not like the vareity of translations and paraphrases used - hard to find a KJV - but that doesn't condemn them. Unless you are an "only", but then, you condemn me.
One might wonder about the idea of "purpose" in life, but it is to bring Glory to God. Their emphasis on the 5 purposes:
Worship/Love God first - Great Commandment
Minister/Love fellow man second - Great Commandment
Share the Gospel/Evangelize - Great Commission
Fellowship in Church/Baptize - Great Commission
Discipleship/training believers - Great Commission
is pretty hard to dis. I've been preaching this for 35 years (just wish I'da marketed it!!)
One might not like PDChurch (I don't) and might think PDLife is pretty simplistic (I do) but they are not in error. They are not evil.
One might not like that Crystal Cathedral Schuller "claims" to be a guru for Warren (he's not) but hey, I've listened to Billy Graham myself. I MUST be evil.
One might not like dockers and a polo shirt instead of a 3-piece suit, but when I attended Saddleback in October and wore long slacks, I was a minority. Did not see one tie in the crowd. Nor at the bank, the mall, or anywhere I went in Orange County. (My wife MADE me wear long pants on Easter Sunday and SHE wore a dress!!)
I would suggest that the "haters" here just quit posting about PDL until you have something worthwhile to say.
One cannot link "Willow Creek" and the "seeker sensitive" philosophy to Saddleback. Apples and oranges. Saddleback presents its services as straightforward Church, not some watered-down music/drama/ditty as Willow Creek does.
One cannot accuse Saddleback as "weak" doctrinally. They hold to the BFM 2000 of the Southern Baptist Convention (they are SBC, you know). They preach the gospel and baptize by immersion.
One might not like the vareity of translations and paraphrases used - hard to find a KJV - but that doesn't condemn them. Unless you are an "only", but then, you condemn me.
One might wonder about the idea of "purpose" in life, but it is to bring Glory to God. Their emphasis on the 5 purposes:
Worship/Love God first - Great Commandment
Minister/Love fellow man second - Great Commandment
Share the Gospel/Evangelize - Great Commission
Fellowship in Church/Baptize - Great Commission
Discipleship/training believers - Great Commission
is pretty hard to dis. I've been preaching this for 35 years (just wish I'da marketed it!!)
One might not like PDChurch (I don't) and might think PDLife is pretty simplistic (I do) but they are not in error. They are not evil.
One might not like that Crystal Cathedral Schuller "claims" to be a guru for Warren (he's not) but hey, I've listened to Billy Graham myself. I MUST be evil.
One might not like dockers and a polo shirt instead of a 3-piece suit, but when I attended Saddleback in October and wore long slacks, I was a minority. Did not see one tie in the crowd. Nor at the bank, the mall, or anywhere I went in Orange County. (My wife MADE me wear long pants on Easter Sunday and SHE wore a dress!!)
I would suggest that the "haters" here just quit posting about PDL until you have something worthwhile to say.
Long wait-------!
They've got to replenish the lemon intake first!