Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
I will stop my insincere, immature, childish, verbal dual, straw man tactic of asking for one piece of evidence that PDL is Satanic deception.
Have a good day Ivey.
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a "purposelessness" driven life
- Thread starter 2Timothy4:1-5
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Have a good day Ivey.
Dr. Bob, you said:
I would suggest that the "haters" here just quit posting about PDL until you have something worthwhile to say
in your last post. It's interesting that you would ignore the 100 or so articles (some written by men such as Mohler and MacArthur) and act as if no one has ever provided solid criticism of Warren's paradigm.
Very interesting...
I would suggest that the "haters" here just quit posting about PDL until you have something worthwhile to say
in your last post. It's interesting that you would ignore the 100 or so articles (some written by men such as Mohler and MacArthur) and act as if no one has ever provided solid criticism of Warren's paradigm.
Very interesting...
I've added my own criticisms. The man and much of his PDChurch stuff have flaws that are obvious.
It is those who condemn EVERYTHING (as evident on the threads on this Forum) that I am trying to counter. Hence my posts that are positive on areas in which others might disagree.
And don't get me started on Mac. He is my hero and I agree with him 99% of the time. But he is way off base on his attacks on his neighbor Warren. There may be some very different issues causing the venom in this area.
It is those who condemn EVERYTHING (as evident on the threads on this Forum) that I am trying to counter. Hence my posts that are positive on areas in which others might disagree.
And don't get me started on Mac. He is my hero and I agree with him 99% of the time. But he is way off base on his attacks on his neighbor Warren. There may be some very different issues causing the venom in this area.
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
Hi Dr. Bob. Your use of the word neighbor totally jumped out at me. Maybe because the sunday school class I'm teaching right now is entitled "Who is my neighbor?".
NASB - Luke 10:30-37
Perhaps RW should keep reading and get to Romans 9. God did not create Pharaoh or Esau for any such purpose. How, then, can we make a blanket statement like that today. An honest PDL would say, "God has created some for destruction. Cry out to God for mercy that you might not be among them." Mac, Mohler, etc. are absolutely right.
guitarpreacher
New Member
So your view of Scripture is not that Pharaoh made a decision that God honored, but that from the day he was born God marked pharaoh for destruction?? That before he ever drew a breath God had already sealed his fate and pharaoh never had a chance to choose to do right? That's whacked out dude.
2 Peter 3:9; "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." So anyone doesn't really mean anyone, and everyone doesn't really mean everyone???
Isaiah 53:6; "We all like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on the the iniquity of us all." So all doesn't really mean all??
Matthew 11:28; "come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and iw ill give you rest." Again, all doesn't really mean all??
2 Peter 3:9; "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." So anyone doesn't really mean anyone, and everyone doesn't really mean everyone???
Isaiah 53:6; "We all like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on the the iniquity of us all." So all doesn't really mean all??
Matthew 11:28; "come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and iw ill give you rest." Again, all doesn't really mean all??
guitarpreacher,
Oh boy...you need to visit the Calvinism/Arminianism board and get refreshed on the centuries old debate...
2 Peter 3:9, in particular, has been exegeted and explained so many times it could be in a world record book!
Again, you should visit that thread. There is nothing "whacked out" about Biblical doctrine.
Oh boy...you need to visit the Calvinism/Arminianism board and get refreshed on the centuries old debate...
2 Peter 3:9, in particular, has been exegeted and explained so many times it could be in a world record book!
Again, you should visit that thread. There is nothing "whacked out" about Biblical doctrine.
Hi Dr. Bob. Your use of the word neighbor totally jumped out at me. Maybe because the sunday school class I'm teaching right now is entitled "Who is my neighbor?". </font>[/QUOTE]And as I think about it, might there not be a "competitive" spirit underneath it all? They ARE both within a half hour of each other and competing for the same people . . .
Hmmmm.
Is this why you would not explain these verses when I asked over at Crown? The highly intellignet calvinists have no time for the intelectually weaker non calvinists? Calvinism is based on intellect and twisted scripture, which in my opinion is false doctrine.
webdog
You have some sort of personal vendetta against me, it would seem, and what you are doing is hijacking this post.
Why don't you email me privately and I will give you my view of 2 Peter 3:9.
For the record, you threw many verses from all over the Bible when you posted at Crown and I suggested we deal with one passage at a time. We didn't get past John 6 because you quit the discussion.
Brian
You have some sort of personal vendetta against me, it would seem, and what you are doing is hijacking this post.
Why don't you email me privately and I will give you my view of 2 Peter 3:9.
For the record, you threw many verses from all over the Bible when you posted at Crown and I suggested we deal with one passage at a time. We didn't get past John 6 because you quit the discussion.
Brian
I quit the discussion because you said you would answer mine after I answered yours. How many verses did I "throw up", like 5? Please, I answered yours. You didn't hold up your end of the discussion. P31 said you went straight by scripture, but based on this thread you started, I am beginning to doubt it.
Just made a supposition from the circumstances. Ever see "competition" between churches? I do all the time.
Seriously, I don't assume the competition angle. Think Mac is just terribly misinformed to link Saddleback with the Willow Creek seeker type of church. It's not calvinistic for sure, but it's also not seeker sensitive.
Dr. Bob,
If Saddleback isn't seeker sensitive, then why is this one their website:
First, they are not Seeker-sensitive:
http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=3848
Then, they are:
http://www.pastors.com/RWMT/?id=16&artid=516&expand=1
Like I've said, there is duplicity with Warren so many times.
And, as I've also said, I do NOT believe Warren is an evil, heretical man. Not at all. I think the man loves the Lord and loves the lost. I have never questioned his motives. I do question his methods and his doctrine. I am thankful for any good that comes out of PDL but I also think it is destroying, yes, destroying, many churches who try to follow it.
If Saddleback isn't seeker sensitive, then why is this one their website:
First, they are not Seeker-sensitive:
http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=3848
Then, they are:
http://www.pastors.com/RWMT/?id=16&artid=516&expand=1
Like I've said, there is duplicity with Warren so many times.
And, as I've also said, I do NOT believe Warren is an evil, heretical man. Not at all. I think the man loves the Lord and loves the lost. I have never questioned his motives. I do question his methods and his doctrine. I am thankful for any good that comes out of PDL but I also think it is destroying, yes, destroying, many churches who try to follow it.
IveyLeaguer
New Member
To my brethren on the BB: This thread is about Rick Warren and PDL and I'll to stick to that. But it is important to keep in mind that PDL is not an isolated movement, but part of a much larger picture. To isolate PDL as an evangelical tool is to miss the reality of what is really happening. Also, this is not a question of megachurch or growth, they are benign in themselves. Given a much broader scope, but sticking to PDL for now, a fair question is this: Within present-day evangelicalism, is sola scriptura in danger of becoming sola cultura? I have no doubt that it is.
As for me personally, since you brought it up, I use 12-20 translations depending on what I'm doing, but primarily the NASB, KJV, and ESV. There were several posts of mine on this subject a few months back but the BB search engine fails to locate them.
But I have said (for effect purposes only, and only in this thread) that PDL is not of God, is a Satanic deception, and at the very core of it lurks evil. And as horrible and unbelievable as that may sound, to the best of my knowledge and the knowledge of many others, that is the truth. I can only wonder but as I've said many times, maybe in this very thread, as far as I know Rick Warren is simply deceived. In this day and hour, there would be nothing unusual about that.
I suppose it is important, at this point, to make this distinction: The root of the problem does not lie with Rick Warren, SB or other people. PDL is a movement with a real spiritual force behind it, like other movements, both past and present. That is evident by its characteristics. The identity of that spiritual force can be none other than the God of the Holy Bible, or some other god, by definition. All deception is evil and satanic, by definition. Therfore, if the spirit behind PDL is not Jesus Christ, it has to be, by definition, an evil force since Jesus would never attack His own work, or deceive His own sheep. It is in this sense that PDL, with present culture substituted for lost souls as its primary target, can be considered a satanic deception, with evil at its core.
That is not to say, by any stretch of the imagination, that God does not use PDL to reach the lost, or that He does not use PDL for His purposes. Of course He does, and it is my prayer that He saves multitudes with it, including many of my friends and family members. God has used error and false teaching to reach people from the beginning. There are people on this board who God reached using false teachers, false doctrine, all kinds of deceptive practices, even the occult, but then gracefully led them out of it into His marvelous Truth. He has used Benny Hinn, for crying out loud. That God would use something like PDL should go without saying, and should surprise no one.
Moreover, there are people God has gifted and called as watchmen, whose primary 'purpose' in ministry is largely discernment, and they are in great demand today. That they are obedient, constantly watchful, and consistent in practicing the work God has called them to do does not mean they are 'negative', or unloving, in any way whatsoever. It is not a technique to become popular, to be sure. Nevertheless, I would agree with you, wholeheartedly, that it is important to recognize the existence of critics who love, more than anything else, being critical. They are not of God and should be exposed for what they are. Such are the liabilities of the information age.
But to habitually point out error by always pointing to the Truth of Scripture is something that is needed more, not less. Evangelicalism in America is hanging on by a string, and it is because of the lack of critical thought among evangelical leaders, especially the past 50 years. Further, discernment is something that should be practiced by all Christians, and is in fact sorely needed among Christ's sheep today.
There was a time, many years ago, when the average Christian in America could just love God, his brethren, his family, the lost, study the Word and be a positive, godly influence to those around him as a routine way of life, without interference. I fondly remember those days and I suspect you do as well. Sadly, however, those days are over. I wish I had taken advantage of them as you apparently did. But we live in another era now. When "The Purpose-Driven Life" appeared overnight in the stores I ignored it for several months, just as I had ignored the entire "Left Behind" series altogether. It was only when old friends, who are dedicated Christians and elders in their local churches, told me of their involvement with it, that I first beheld the PDL. So no, I didn't confront Rick Warren. RICK WARREN CONFRONTED ME.
John MacArthur, Bob DeWaay, Dave Hunt, Os Guiness, R.C.Sproul, Tricia Tillin, and many hundreds of others are not haters, and neither am I. They are people who love God and are not afraid to stand on His rightly divided Word in all circumstances and surroundings, regardless of the consequenses. As one of them, because I love the brethren and because I hate it when they are deceived or otherwise led astray, I will not cease to point out error and deception wherever I see it, be it PDL or something else, be it here or elsewhere. Since this is your board, I suppose you could ban me from posting here. But you cannot shut down the voices that are intent on exposing PDL for what it really is underneath the hood - a postmodern gospel clothed in orthodoxy - any more than the television fleecers could shut down the voices that exposed Charismania, which thing you HATE.
[ April 21, 2005, 12:15 AM: Message edited by: IveyLeaguer ]
They are not erroneous, Bob, but I am guilty of creating, IN MY FIRST POST, some shock value to draw attention to the PDL phenomenon. I admit it lacked class and was intentionally blunt, which is not my style, but previous posts saying virtually the same thing got no response. If you or anyone else were offended, I apologize. No offense was intended. But I am not afraid to call a spade a spade, and the information in the post is factual, regardless of what you think of it. Though warning signs are everywhere, much of the research on the PDM (Purpose Driven Movement), SSM (Seeker Sensitive Movement), and the overall CGM (Church Growth Movement, a misnomer if there ever was one since it implies that all church growth is somehow the same) is very new and Christians should be aware the information exists, because to research the movement properly from scratch would be a full time task that would require many months just to get a basic understanding of it, something most Christians cannot do. What you call muck I call solid ground that rests on rightly divided Scripture. To stand alongside or support RW or PDL is impossible for me, regardless of his affiliation, because beneath the 'biblical' cloak of PDL is a stealthy, unbiblical mechanism that surrenders to the present culture and its ideas, sociology, psychology, innovations, trends, systems, and measurable outcomes. That someone like you cannot see that is evidence of its deceptive power, though many evangelical pastors, leaders, and formerly smitten evangelicals, are now beginning to back away from it.
To the best of my recollection I have never addressed Saddleback directly, not even in private conversation. I realize SB and WC are different entities, and I take you at your word when you mention your SB experiences. But they do share some fundamental similarities, seeker-sensitivity being one. My area of concern is not with SB or any specific church, but with the much broader platform of error, deception, apostasy, and the like which surround and exists within the professed church, along with the subsequent and clandestine progression toward ecumenism which is rapidly gaining momentum in the United States and around the world. The PDM and the SSM are but two components of the CGM, which is itself only one component of something even broader.
I don't condemn anyone, Bob, I would never use that term. A man-made paraphrase like "The Message" condemns itself, anyway. It's true I don't like some of the translations Warren uses, but the primary point about translations and the use of scripture is this: What Warren claims to be a strength of his book (1000+ scripture references) is in reality a weakness, as his scripture references often fail to teach what he says they teach. That is a problem, to be sure, but the thing I most strongly object to is the use of different translations to intentionally distort the scriptures for the express purpose of presenting a gospel that is either different, incomplete, or cloaked in postmodern culture.
As for me personally, since you brought it up, I use 12-20 translations depending on what I'm doing, but primarily the NASB, KJV, and ESV. There were several posts of mine on this subject a few months back but the BB search engine fails to locate them.
Neither do I disagree with them, they are all wonderful and scriptural. And how wonderful it would be if I could say that I had been practicing that for 35 years, not to mention preaching it, as you have done.
Most deceptions consists of 90+% truth, and most false teachers speak 90+% truth. The error of PDL is different because it exists almost entirely beneath the surface and in omissions, which is one reason it is the greatest current deception I know of. The Emerging Church, for example, has similarities to PDL mechanically, but is much easier to discern. But the PDL and SSM are aiming right for the heart of evangelicalism, IMHO. As I heard Os Guiness say yesterday regarding the movement at large: "modern culture has overwhelmed evangelicalism", as evangelical leaders have permitted a "wholesale accomodation to modern ideas, in an uncritical way."
Nobody has said any person is evil, Bob, be it Rick Warren or anyone else. Those are your conclusions. And surely you do not imply that I believe the many millions of people involved in PDL, and the many thousands of staffers and pastors, are in any way evil, deceptive, or otherwise not well-intentioned. Nothing could be further from the truth, and I have never said anything remotely like that.
But I have said (for effect purposes only, and only in this thread) that PDL is not of God, is a Satanic deception, and at the very core of it lurks evil. And as horrible and unbelievable as that may sound, to the best of my knowledge and the knowledge of many others, that is the truth. I can only wonder but as I've said many times, maybe in this very thread, as far as I know Rick Warren is simply deceived. In this day and hour, there would be nothing unusual about that.
I suppose it is important, at this point, to make this distinction: The root of the problem does not lie with Rick Warren, SB or other people. PDL is a movement with a real spiritual force behind it, like other movements, both past and present. That is evident by its characteristics. The identity of that spiritual force can be none other than the God of the Holy Bible, or some other god, by definition. All deception is evil and satanic, by definition. Therfore, if the spirit behind PDL is not Jesus Christ, it has to be, by definition, an evil force since Jesus would never attack His own work, or deceive His own sheep. It is in this sense that PDL, with present culture substituted for lost souls as its primary target, can be considered a satanic deception, with evil at its core.
That is not to say, by any stretch of the imagination, that God does not use PDL to reach the lost, or that He does not use PDL for His purposes. Of course He does, and it is my prayer that He saves multitudes with it, including many of my friends and family members. God has used error and false teaching to reach people from the beginning. There are people on this board who God reached using false teachers, false doctrine, all kinds of deceptive practices, even the occult, but then gracefully led them out of it into His marvelous Truth. He has used Benny Hinn, for crying out loud. That God would use something like PDL should go without saying, and should surprise no one.
That Robert Schuller had a profound influence on RW is well known. Schuller cannot be divorced from PDL. But Schuller is/was Bill Hybel's guru or mentor, and I think some people get it confused and assume Schuller is/was mentor to Warren. I've never seen any evidence of that, just pure speculation. But it is fair to say that, within so-called 'expert' circles, many of Warren's known associations are questionable at best, and alarming to many.
Well, that's a nice straw man diversion. Your simplistic, sarcasm aside, I've never mentioned Graham publicly, though his infrequent associations with Schuller and some of his statements in recent years disturb many, including me. Notwithstanding Billy Graham, who I admire, it is always humbling to realize that all of us are susceptible, no matter how mature or how far along the road we are, to the wiles and lies of Satan, and to let our guard down, even for only a little while, exposes us to danger.
Immaterial. But your wife and I probably have similar tastes.
I hope you don't honestly consider everyone who doesn't swallow PDL hook, line, and sinker, a "hater". That sounds like your emotions talking, Bob. I don't hate Rick Warren. I don't hate Robert Schuller, Bill Hybels, Peter Wagner, or Peter Drucker. I can't deny that I hate sin, and I confess that I especially hate deceit, in all its forms, even though my heart is itself deceitful. I never set out to, but I trust that I hate error and deception the same way our Lord does. If you can show me anything in the scriptures that God hates more than distortion or misapplication of His Word, with its resulting error, deception, and idolatry, I would like to see it.
Moreover, there are people God has gifted and called as watchmen, whose primary 'purpose' in ministry is largely discernment, and they are in great demand today. That they are obedient, constantly watchful, and consistent in practicing the work God has called them to do does not mean they are 'negative', or unloving, in any way whatsoever. It is not a technique to become popular, to be sure. Nevertheless, I would agree with you, wholeheartedly, that it is important to recognize the existence of critics who love, more than anything else, being critical. They are not of God and should be exposed for what they are. Such are the liabilities of the information age.
But to habitually point out error by always pointing to the Truth of Scripture is something that is needed more, not less. Evangelicalism in America is hanging on by a string, and it is because of the lack of critical thought among evangelical leaders, especially the past 50 years. Further, discernment is something that should be practiced by all Christians, and is in fact sorely needed among Christ's sheep today.
There was a time, many years ago, when the average Christian in America could just love God, his brethren, his family, the lost, study the Word and be a positive, godly influence to those around him as a routine way of life, without interference. I fondly remember those days and I suspect you do as well. Sadly, however, those days are over. I wish I had taken advantage of them as you apparently did. But we live in another era now. When "The Purpose-Driven Life" appeared overnight in the stores I ignored it for several months, just as I had ignored the entire "Left Behind" series altogether. It was only when old friends, who are dedicated Christians and elders in their local churches, told me of their involvement with it, that I first beheld the PDL. So no, I didn't confront Rick Warren. RICK WARREN CONFRONTED ME.
John MacArthur, Bob DeWaay, Dave Hunt, Os Guiness, R.C.Sproul, Tricia Tillin, and many hundreds of others are not haters, and neither am I. They are people who love God and are not afraid to stand on His rightly divided Word in all circumstances and surroundings, regardless of the consequenses. As one of them, because I love the brethren and because I hate it when they are deceived or otherwise led astray, I will not cease to point out error and deception wherever I see it, be it PDL or something else, be it here or elsewhere. Since this is your board, I suppose you could ban me from posting here. But you cannot shut down the voices that are intent on exposing PDL for what it really is underneath the hood - a postmodern gospel clothed in orthodoxy - any more than the television fleecers could shut down the voices that exposed Charismania, which thing you HATE.
[ April 21, 2005, 12:15 AM: Message edited by: IveyLeaguer ]