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A question about Calvinism

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OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Hardly. Although I don't doubt that many Calvinists are Christians, they certainly didn't get their Calvinistic beliefs from Jesus Christ!

Taken literally that would mean you have never read the Bible. Jesus Christ is called the Word. I suggest starting with the Gospel of John.

However I do reject the term Calvinism when applied to Baptists. I prefer The Doctrines of Grace, as I have said numerous times before.
 

Rippon

Well-Known Member
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Read the biography at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._MacArthur

He pastors a non-denominational church. His church is not a Baptist church and does not teach what Baptists have taught for four hundred years but rather MacArthur is dispensational which was the death of a career for a Baptist preacher at one time. He left his historical Baptist roots.

To say something is Baptistic means nothing. That can mean almost anything all the way from legalistic and knowing nothing about what the Bible teaches to being rather liberal and accepting little of what scripture teaches and advancing the kingdom through social gospel.

You need to actually read your own links which you think support your views. The Wikipedia article says :"MacArthur is a conservative Baptist."

Of course Baptists are a diverse lot -- the BB is testimony of that fact. But JM is a conservative Baptist. Of course one can add other things as well -- a "leaky dispensationalist", an expository preacher, a soteriological Calvinist etc.
 

Robert Snow

New Member
Do you mean those in that liberal denomination today?

What a strange reply?

I mean followers of Christ.

Again, I don't doubt that many Calvinists are Christians (followers of Christ), but I don't believe they developed this doctrine from the teachings of Christ.
 

Robert Snow

New Member
We get it straight from Scripture!

I don't believe so; I think it is a man-made doctrine that is developed from taking the teachings of men like John Calvin and using the Scriptures in a way that seems correct, but is wrong.

I don't expect you to agree, but I think Calvin has done much to hinder the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I understand how one can believe it, but I think it denies God's choice to give man free will.

Rippon: As far as my posting being rubbish, I think you, as usual, get upset at those who don't agree with you and resort to name-calling. I think if you were as secure in your beliefs as you think you are, you would not allow differing views to upset you so much.

There are many good Christians on both sides of this argument, I just believe that the Calvinistic viewpoint is incorrect.
 

historyb

New Member
[Personal attack edited] Before I even knew what the doctrines of grace was called I found it in Scripture, then I found the name and everything is in Scripture. [Personal attack edited.]
 
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Rippon

Well-Known Member
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Rippon: As far as my posting being rubbish, I think you, as usual, get upset at those who don't agree with you and resort to name-calling. I think if you were as secure in your beliefs as you think you are, you would not allow differing views to upset you so much.

There are many good Christians on both sides of this argument, I just believe that the Calvinistic viewpoint is incorrect.

It's perfectly fine for you to say that you think the Calvinistic viewpoint is incorrect. However, it is a completely diferent matter for you to say that Jesus Christ is not the source of our doctrine.
 

gb93433

Active Member
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You need to actually read your own links which you think support your views. The Wikipedia article says :"MacArthur is a conservative Baptist."

Of course Baptists are a diverse lot -- the BB is testimony of that fact. But JM is a conservative Baptist. Of course one can add other things as well -- a "leaky dispensationalist", an expository preacher, a soteriological Calvinist etc.
Did you actually read what I wrote?

"Read the biography at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._MacArthur"

The church MacArthur pastors is not a Baptist Church. It is a non-denominational church. Could one post on the BB as a Baptist if he pastors a non-denominational church? Through a simple reading of that article you would notice that he received his doctorate from Talbot which is nota Baptist seminary. He received his masters from Biola which is not a Baptist school. He transfered from Bob Jones University Azusa. Azusa is far removed from being Baptist?

Under the heading "Theological Views" as you did quote he is a conservative Baptist in his theology. Most non-denominational churches hold to many of the same theological points of view as Baptists. He is about as much Baptist as one who pastors a non-denominational church would be.

Master's Seminary is not a Baptist Seminary. In fact it was initially supported by Talbot Seminary which is not a Baptist seminary.(http://www.tms.edu/AboutHistory.aspx)

Whiuch part of MacArthur is Baptist in practice?
 

Robert Snow

New Member
It's perfectly fine for you to say that you think the Calvinistic viewpoint is incorrect. However, it is a completely diferent matter for you to say that Jesus Christ is not the source of our doctrine.

I can say this because I believe it is true. I don't doubt your sincerity, I just don't see where Jesus taught the things Calvinists hold to.
 

Rippon

Well-Known Member
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He does teach "doctrines of grace"...but He didn't teach what the reformed call the "Doctrines of Grace"

Yes, the Lord does. I pray the Lord would open your eyes to see what to others is so plain in the Scriptures.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
He does teach "doctrines of grace"...but He didn't teach what the reformed call the "Doctrines of Grace"

He teaches what this Baptist calls Doctrines of Grace which means that only those chosen unto salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world will be saved.
 

historyb

New Member
AMEN!
amen.gif
 

Rippon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The Lord does not give, bestow,confer grace to everyone -- only those of His choosing variously called the elect, His sheep,His beloved, the Church ad infinitum. He gives faith only to those very same people.The grace and faith the Lord bestows are intertwined.
 

Me4Him

New Member
Keep in mind dispensationalism wasn't a theological position until about 150 years ago. Thus it would have been difficult for Calvin to hold to it. :)

The "Jews" have held a "dispensation doctrine" almost since the "beginning of time", their time anyway. :laugh:

I couldn't find the exact reference I was looking for, "seven dispensations", but here is a two thousand years dispensation.

Jewish Time
The traditional Jewish understanding of the flow of history is similar to that found in all great epic stories: The plot unfolds within a finite time frame and is a clearly delineated into a beginning, a middle and an end. In the broadest of strokes the Talmud, in tractate Sanhedrin 97a, lays out the basic themes and periods of history:

The world is to exist for six thousand years. In the first two thousand there was desolation; two thousand years the Torah flourished; and the next two thousand years is the Messianic era...

The six thousand years mentioned in the Talmud is not calculated from creation of the universe, but rather from the birth of Adam and mirrors the weekly cycle. Just as the Jewish week begins on Sunday and runs through Friday, so too is human history is to comprise a maximum(5) of six millennia of history as we know it.

At the end of this weekly cycle we enter the Sabbath, a day of spirituality and rest, so too after a maximum of 6,000 years of history humanity will enter the seventh millennium called "the World to Come," in Hebrew "Olam Haba." The World to Come is synonymous with the Garden of Eden and represents the culmination of the process of returning to God and perfecting the world (see Derech Hashem 1:3:4)

We see from this quote in the Talmud that these 6,000 years are further subdivided into three 2,000 years periods each with its own theme. The first 2,000 years, from Adam to the Tower of Babel is called desolation. The theme of this period: Humanity is spiritually desolate and has no relationship with God.

The second 2,000 year period, from Abraham to the completion of Mishnah c 240C.E, is called Torah. The theme of this period is Jewish national history in the Land of Israel and the flourishing of Torah (the Law).

The final 2,000 year period, from 240C.E. until the year 6,000 (the year 2,240 C.E.), is called Messiah. The theme of this final phase is humanity's return to God (led by the Jewish people). At the end of this period, but before the year 6,000, comes the Messianic Era which is the final preparatory stage before humanity enters the World to Come.(6)

I "suspect" most "Christians" ideas for dispensations originated from Jewish doctrine, if the truth was known.
 

gb93433

Active Member
Site Supporter
The "Jews" have held a "dispensation doctrine" almost since the "beginning of time", their time anyway.
So are you saying that since man has not changed and God has not changed therefore God must have dealt with man in seven different ways throughout history since the beginning of time?
 
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