A question about Calvinism

[webdog]

Yes, the Lord does. I pray the Lord would open your eyes to see what to others is so plain in the Scriptures.

He did open my eyes...that is why I left that doctrine.

 

[webdog]

The Lord does not give, bestow,confer grace to everyone -- only those of His choosing variously called the elect, His sheep,His beloved, the Church ad infinitum. He gives faith only to those very same people.The grace and faith the Lord bestows are intertwined.

This is the problem with man's theology wrapped up nicely.

 

[blackbird]

The Lord does not give, bestow,confer grace to everyone -- only those of His choosing variously called the elect, His sheep,His beloved, the Church ad infinitum. He gives faith only to those very same people.The grace and faith the Lord bestows are intertwined.

What is your take on this verse, Rip???

Titus 2: 11, "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men."

Who has the grace of God appeared to?? To some men or to all men??

 

[historyb]

For Whom Did Christ Die?

 

[Rippon]

He did open my eyes...that is why I left that doctrine.

Do you think the Lord opens the eyes of some who embrace the doctrine(s) of grace and opens the eyes of others that the doctrines of grace are not true?!! That is completely nonsensical. And your pastor would agree with me.

 

[Rippon]

This is the problem with man's theology wrapped up nicely.

So you want to maintain that God gives faith and grace to everyone?! You have plunged into foolishness.WD, the Lord only confers grace and faith to His own people. Are you a Universalist?

 

[Rippon]

What is your take on this verse, Rip???

Titus 2: 11, "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men."

Who has the grace of God appeared to?? To some men or to all men??

His grace has appeared (or has been displayed)to all categories of people.

In the original verse 11-14 were one unit. I'll quote from the MLB:

"For the saving grace of God has appeared to all people,training them to renounce godlessness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in this present world, with expectation of that blessed hope, even the glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity, and to purify for Himself a people all His own who are eager to do good works."

To whom is Paul addressing? "Us". "Training us". "Who gave Himself for us to redeem us."

"...our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, to redeem us ... to purify for Himself a people all His own."

There is a very clear delimitation here -- it is only for His own that He died.

And I would hope that you would acknowledge that millions since the time of Christ have never heard a mention of the Gospel of Christ. The Lord did not appear to them.He has not revealed Himself to multiplied millions.Don't try to go to the early chapters of Romans.The Gospel is not in view there.

 

[Robert Snow]

The Lord does not give, bestow,confer grace to everyone -- only those of His choosing variously called the elect, His sheep,His beloved, the Church ad infinitum. He gives faith only to those very same people.The grace and faith the Lord bestows are intertwined.

The Word of God plainly contradicts what you say:

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

 

[Robert Snow]

His grace has appeared (or has been displayed)to all categories of people.

In the original verse 11-14 were one unit. I'll quote from the MLB:

"For the saving grace of God has appeared to all people,training them to renounce godlessness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in this present world, with expectation of that blessed hope, even the glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity, and to purify for Himself a people all His own who are eager to do good works."

To whom is Paul addressing? "Us". "Training us". "Who gave Himself for us to redeem us."

"...our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, to redeem us ... to purify for Himself a people all His own."

There is a very clear delimitation here -- it is only for His own that He died.

And I would hope that you would acknowledge that millions since the time of Christ have never heard a mention of the Gospel of Christ. The Lord did not appear to them.He has not revealed Himself to multiplied millions.Don't try to go to the early chapters of Romans.The Gospel is not in view there.

And you are one who speaks of nonsense! This is like a Jehovah's Witness explaining the passage on hell in Luke 16. Complete idiocy!

 

[Rippon]

The Word of God plainly contradicts what you say:

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

The more astute non-Cals here would tell you to study the Bible more Robert. This section is specifically aimed at believers.

In verse 1 : "Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters..."

Verse 2 : " Don't conform to the pattern of this world..."

Verse 3 : "For by the grace given me I say to every one of you..." Who is being referenced by the pronoun "you"? That's right, believers.

You might just as well think that God has granted every single person a measure of grease as that He has given each and every one a grace. (A variation of something Charles H. Spurgeon has said)

 

[saturneptune]

It's perfectly fine for you to say that you think the Calvinistic viewpoint is incorrect. However, it is a completely diferent matter for you to say that Jesus Christ is not the source of our doctrine.

Why not? You yourself called someone a heretic in another thread for the subject of God and evil, even when you were clearly wrong on the matter. You had no right to call him that even if you were right.

 

[saturneptune]

Your contention is rubbish.

I believe very strongly in the doctrines of grace and sovreignty. However, the way you express yourself on the subject and the way you relate it to Scripture makes a case for the other side. Why not read the Bible before you post?

 

[Rippon]

Why not? You yourself called someone a heretic in another thread for the subject of God and evil, even when you were clearly wrong on the matter. You had no right to call him that even if you were right.

I said that his view is heretical. If anyone else wishes to join the blasphemous club which calls the Lord the author of evil I will loudly denounce them.

 

[Rippon]

I believe very strongly in the doctrines of grace and sovreignty. However, the way you express yourself on the subject and the way you relate it to Scripture makes a case for the other side. Why not read the Bible before you post?

Why not read my posts already on the subject which you have conveniently ignored. Check the Scripture that I have cited.

 

[Me4Him]

For Whom Did Christ Die?

"If you say that he died for every human being in the same way, then you have to define the nature of the atonement very differently than you would if you believed that Christ only died for those who actually believe. In the first case you would believe that the death of Christ did not actually save anybody; it only made all men savable. "

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

"It did not actually remove God's punitive wrath from anyone, but instead created a place where people could come and find mercy -- IF they could accomplish their own new birth and bring themselves to faith without the irresistible grace of God."

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, (law/death for sin) which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; (Grace) but he that believeth not shall be damned. (no Grace)

Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; (grace)

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it (grace) is the gift of God:

"In other words if you believe that Christ died for all men in the same way, then the benefits of the cross cannot include the mercy by which we are brought to faith, because then all men would be brought to faith, but they aren't. But if the mercy by which we are brought to faith (irresistible grace) is not part of what Christ purchased on the cross, then we are left to save ourselves from the bondage of sin, the hardness of heart, the blindness of corruption, and the wrath of God."

Piper first mistake was in believing Jesus too away sin, he didn't, he took away the law that required a "death for sin",

he paid the "wages of sin" for the sins of the whole world that the whole world "MIGHT BE" saved "IF" they "BELIEVED" in him.

Salvation is God's "Grace" but you don't receive Grace until you "Believe" or have "FAITH" in Jesus,

and that is a "PERSONAL CHOICE" of each individual.

In order to say that Christ died for all men in the same way, the Arminian must limit the atonement to a powerless opportunity for men to save themselves from their terrible plight of depravity.

Man's "depravity" isn't such we can't know good/evil, people who don't have the law, do by nature the things contained in the law,

Paul said with his mind he served the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

God gave the law so we would know good/evil, and be accountable for the choice we make between them.

Faith is not a "gift from God", because faith can be had without works, with is "dead".

Jesus said I am the vine, you are the branches, without me you can do nothing,

Faith that leads to "Grace" is confirmed by the works which are done by the spirit within.

And probable the most important question calvinist can never ask,

"WHAT IS THE REASON"??

God expect man to have faith/believe before he will save man???

 

[gb93433]

I said that his view is heretical. If anyone else wishes to join the blasphemous club which calls the Lord the author of evil I will loudly denounce them.

Scripture is my guide not your rationalistic thinking. Rationalistic thinking has won a lot of people to error and false teachers. So instead of pointless rationalistic thinking why not give some substance so that all of us can be edified and understand scripture better. If I am wrong I am waiting to be corrected. Is that not fair enough? I would hope that you would give me the same respect. If you would take a look at a Hebrew concordance and observe every situation where that Hebrew word is used, I believe that you will see you are far off the mark of what scripture teaches in its totality. If you will also take a look at the LXX, TDOT, TDNT, TWOT then you will something far different than you suggest and see that what you claim is only one part of God and not the full picture of who God is. How you are interpreting makes it clear that you are only looking at scripture form a Greek mindset and not the Jewish mindset of the historical context. You have forgotten to address who those verses were written to. They were not written to the Greeks but rather the Jews who had a very different view of God than you do who thinks in light of a Greek mindset.

 

[historyb]

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.





Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, (law/death for sin) which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; (Grace) but he that believeth not shall be damned. (no Grace)

Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; (grace)

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it (grace) is the gift of God:



Piper first mistake was in believing Jesus too away sin, he didn't, he took away the law that required a "death for sin",

he paid the "wages of sin" for the sins of the whole world that the whole world "MIGHT BE" saved "IF" they "BELIEVED" in him.

Salvation is God's "Grace" but you don't receive Grace until you "Believe" or have "FAITH" in Jesus,

and that is a "PERSONAL CHOICE" of each individual.




Man's "depravity" isn't such we can't know good/evil, people who don't have the law, do by nature the things contained in the law,

Paul said with his mind he served the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

God gave the law so we would know good/evil, and be accountable for the choice we make between them.

Faith is not a "gift from God", because faith can be had without works, with is "dead".

Jesus said I am the vine, you are the branches, without me you can do nothing,

Faith that leads to "Grace" is confirmed by the works which are done by the spirit within.

And probable the most important question calvinist can never ask,

"WHAT IS THE REASON"??

God expect man to have faith/believe before he will save man???

All those verses were written to believers, it is wrong to assume they mean the world as in the whole world when they do not. Christ died only for His own and none other. Man is total depraved and has no good in him on his own. God regenerates man unto Salvation, man can never choose

 

[Me4Him]

All those verses were written to believers, it is wrong to assume they mean the world as in the whole world when they do not. Christ died only for His own and none other. Man is total depraved and has no good in him on his own. God regenerates man unto Salvation, man can never choose

If man is totally depraved and God only saves the "elect", then the law is as "totally useless" as man's total depravity.

Jesus is the "light of the world", the whole world, do you know what that means???

Mt 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. (refuse to confess sin)


21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Your totally depravity theory denies that man has the ability to know "good/evil", Light from darkness, or the ability to come or refuse to come to the light,

Based on their choice to believe/confess sin or refuse to believe/confess.

 

[historyb]

If man is totally depraved and God only saves the "elect", then the law is as "totally useless" as man's total depravity.

Jesus is the "light of the world", the whole world, do you know what that means???

Mt 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. (refuse to confess sin)


21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Your totally depravity theory denies that man has the ability to know "good/evil", Light from darkness, or the ability to come or refuse to come to the light,

Based on their choice to believe/confess sin or refuse to believe/confess.

Man in his natural state does not have the ability to know good/evil. Man is born dead in his trespasses and has no desire to come out, nor can man freely choose. When God comes in and regenerates man, man can see his sad state and then is able to embrace God. There is no good in natural man, there is common grace that allows a man to do perceived good but they never do it with right motives I will paste this and hopefully you'll better understand:

 

[historyb]

Question: "Total Depravity - is it Biblical?"

Answer: Total Depravity is a phrase or name that is used to summarize what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. It is the “T” in the acronym TULIP, which is commonly used to enumerate what are known as the five points of Calvinism or the doctrines of grace. Because the name “total depravity” can cause people to have wrong ideas about what is meant, some people prefer to use terms like “Total Inability”, “Righteous Incapability”, “Radical Corruption” or even “Moral Inability”. Yet what is important is not the name assigned to the doctrine but how accurately the doctrine summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. No matter which name you use to refer to “Total Depravity” the fact remains that when properly understood it is an accurate description of what the Bible does teach on this important subject.

While often misunderstood, the doctrine of Total Depravity is an acknowledgement that the Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we are and what we do. It penetrates to the very core of our being so that everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). It acknowledges that the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners by nature. Or as Jesus says “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.” (Matthew 7:17-18).

The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9) and the thoughts of his heart are “continually evil” (Genesis 6:5). The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the Gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so.” (Romans 8:7).

The Apostle Paul really summarizes the total depravity of man in Romans 3:9-18. He begins this passage by saying that “both Jews and Greeks are all under sin.” Simply put this means that man is under the control of sin or is controlled by his sin nature (his natural tendency to sin). The fact that unregenerate people are controlled by their selfish, sinful tendencies should not come as a surprise to any parent. What parent has to teach their children to be selfish, to covet what someone else has or to lie? Those actions come naturally from the child’s sin nature. Instead the parent must devote much time to teaching the child the importance of telling the truth, of sharing instead of being selfish, of obeying instead of rebelling, etc.

Then in the rest of this passage Paul quotes extensively from the Old Testament in explaining how sinful man really is. For example we see that: 1—no one is without sin, 2—no one seeks after God, 3—there is no one who is good, 4—their speech is corrupted by sin, 5—their actions are corrupted by sin, 6—and above all they have no fear of God. So when one considers even these few verses mentioned above it becomes abundantly clear the Bible does indeed teach that fallen man is “totally depraved” because sin affects all of him including his mind, will and emotions so that “There is none who does good, no not one” (Romans 3:12).

There is a common misconception regarding total depravity. It does not mean that man is as wicked or sinful as he could be, nor does it mean that man is without a conscience or any sense of right or wrong. Neither does it mean that man does not or cannot do things that seem to be good when viewed from a human perspective or measured against a human standard. It does not even mean that man cannot do things that seem to conform outwardly to the Law of God. What the Bible does teach and what total depravity does recognize is that even the “good” things man does are tainted by sin because they are not done for the glory of God and out of faith in Him (Romans 14:23; Hebrews 11:6). While man looks upon the outward acts and judges them to be good, God looks upon not only the outward acts but also the inward motives that lay behind them, and because they proceed from a heart that is in rebellion against Him and they are not done for His Glory even these good deeds are like “filthy rags” in His sight. In other words, fallen man’s good deeds are motivated not by a desire to please God but by our own self interest and are thus corrupted to the point where God declares that there is “no one who does good, no not one!”

Since Scripture is very clear that all of man is affected by sin and so much so that “no one seeks after God,” then how can anyone possibly become a Christian? The answer is that God must overcome man’s depravity in such a way that man is able to recognize his spiritual state and his hopeless condition apart from the grace of God. Man’s spiritually blind eyes must be open and the bondage of sin that renders him hopelessly enslaved must be broken so that he can respond in faith to the Gospel message and the atoning work of Christ on the cross. Some Christians believe that God accomplishes this through some type of universal grace whereby God brings man to a condition where he has the ability to choose or reject Him. Others believe that for a man who is “dead in trespasses and sins” to be able to understand and respond to the Gospel in faith, he must first be born again or regenerated by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3). It is only after God infuses spiritual life in a dead sinner that he can “see the kingdom of God.” Those that hold this view see this as being a sovereign act of God, whereby men are born again “not of the blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12-13).

However even when properly understood, many people will rebel or reject the doctrine of total depravity, but that fact should not surprise us since the world generally thinks of man as being basically good. Therefore the idea that man by nature is a depraved sinner runs contrary to most modern religious, psychological and philosophical views of the basic nature of man. But the fact is that the Bible does teach the depravity of the human heart and the root cause of man’s problem is not the environment he is raised in but that by nature man has a wicked and selfish heart. Properly understood, the doctrine of total depravity will destroy the hopes of those who place their faith in any type of works-based system of salvation and recognize that God’s sovereign grace is man’s only hope. While the doctrine of total depravity destroys man’s self righteousness and any misconceptions about man’s ability to be saved through his own free will, it leaves one asking the same question the disciples asked of Jesus in Matthew 19:25-26: “Then who can be saved?” Of course the answer remains the same: “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:25-26).

As the first of the five doctrines of what is called “Calvinism,” the doctrine of total depravity correctly focuses man’s attention on the rest of these “doctrines of grace” which declare the wondrous work of God in the salvation of sinners.

Source here