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A question about Calvinism

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Thinkingstuff

Thinkingstuff

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webdog said:
The Psalms are poetic language, and he said he was conceived in sin...not mankind. Psalms 58, he says he was a sinner "from the womb", so it is evident that hyperbole is being used. By the very definition of sinner it is one who sins, and being conceived is not a sin.
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The principle is the same. He was concieved in sin and a sinner from the womb because of the sin nature which affects us from conseption. This is a primary tennant of all Christianity. Your definition falls short with Jesus a person is an adulterer who looks at a woman with adultery in his heart. No act has been committed as yet. The Act of sinning was not done. It was a matter of the heart. Notice Jesus doesn't say brain or head or thinking but Heart. Specifically. So there is a nature issue for us. like the story of the scorpion and the fox crossing the river and the scorpion asks the fox to carry him accross the river but the fox balks at it and the scorpion insist he won't sting the fox, so the fox takes him. Half way accross the river the fox is stung and cries out "why did you sting me? We'll both die!" The scorpions says "because its in my nature to do so." So it is with man.
 
H

historyb

New Member
Thinkingstuff said:
The psalmist said that we are concieved in sin. The moment of our conseption we are condemned as sinners

Though at no time did the psalmist personally sin at his conseption so it must be a state of being inherited by being human.

here we see how Paul shows that sin disconnects us from the spiritual life. So we are dead spiritually and our bodies will ultimately follow. it is God who regenerates the dead.
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Exactly, more than just physical death happened at the garden spiritual death also took place and we are all born that way
 
webdog

webdog

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Thinkingstuff said:
The principle is the same. He was concieved in sin and a sinner from the womb because of the sin nature which affects us from conseption. This is a primary tennant of all Christianity. Your definition falls short with Jesus a person is an adulterer who looks at a woman with adultery in his heart. No act has been committed as yet. The Act of sinning was not done. It was a matter of the heart. Notice Jesus doesn't say brain or head or thinking but Heart. Specifically. So there is a nature issue for us. like the story of the scorpion and the fox crossing the river and the scorpion asks the fox to carry him accross the river but the fox balks at it and the scorpion insist he won't sting the fox, so the fox takes him. Half way accross the river the fox is stung and cries out "why did you sting me? We'll both die!" The scorpions says "because its in my nature to do so." So it is with man.
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Augustinian Original Sin is not a primary tenet of Christianity. It is widely accepted, but not correct.

I'm sorry, but it is not "my" definition, it is "the" definition of sinner. :)

Even sins of thought (from the heart) take a conscious, willing decision to make. What law has a zygote or fetus broke? Just being formed?!?

I don't disagree we all have sin natures, but a sin nature doesn't equate to spiritual death, as is evidenced by us who still have this sin nature.
 
Thinkingstuff

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
webdog said:
Augustinian Original Sin is not a primary tenet of Christianity. It is widely accepted, but not correct.

I'm sorry, but it is not "my" definition, it is "the" definition of sinner. :)

Even sins of thought (from the heart) take a conscious, willing decision to make. What law has a zygote or fetus broke? Just being formed?!?

I don't disagree we all have sin natures, but a sin nature doesn't equate to spiritual death, as is evidenced by us who still have this sin nature.
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Zygote or Fetus are spiritually still born. Its up to God to bring life. Sin nature very much equates to spiritual death. It is this nature that is being dealt with by Jesus' death and resurrection. We die to our sin (nature as well as act) and are raised again in Jesus. See.

BTW Augustine Rocks no matter what the Orthodox say.
 
webdog

webdog

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Thinkingstuff said:
Zygote or Fetus are spiritually still born. Its up to God to bring life. Sin nature very much equates to spiritual death. It is this nature that is being dealt with by Jesus' death and resurrection. We die to our sin (nature as well as act) and are raised again in Jesus. See.

BTW Augustine Rocks no matter what the Orthodox say.
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To be spiritually still born, or spiritually dead has to include life at some point. Death is the ending of life, not the "non existence" of life. To be born spiritually dead is an oxymoron...and impossibility since there was no life to "die" from.

If sin nature equates to spiritual death...are you saying as believers we never have spiritual life? Jesus' death, burial and resurrection dealt with our state as sinners...not our sin natures.
 
Thinkingstuff

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
Amy.G said:
Puleeese! :laugh:

Augustine invented original sin. Webdog is right. This is one area that we are in agreement on. :thumbsup:

Original sin as Augustine defines it is wrong.
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And your point is? Really both you and webdog (as much as I like him) are wrong and I'm right. The more you speak the more evident it is. Augustine could have worked out a few kinks but he got the general idea. :tongue3:
 
A

Amy.G

New Member
webdog said:
Are you saying a zygote or fetus possesses the ability to have faith in Christ? Where does the Gospel message come from...the umbilical cord?
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What it amounts to is a fetus must be saved in some other way besides grace through faith or a fetus cannot be saved. (according to Calvinism)
 
Thinkingstuff

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
webdog said:
To be spiritually still born, or spiritually dead has to include life at some point. Death is the ending of life, not the "non existence" of life. To be born spiritually dead is an oxymoron...and impossibility since there was no life to "die" from.

If sin nature equates to spiritual death...are you saying as believers we never have spiritual life? Jesus' death, burial and resurrection dealt with our state as sinners...not our sin natures.
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Your first paragraph is confused. Dead is dead. Sin is sin. And being born with a sin nature is to have a nature that is dead.

Adam had life and lost it for all humanity Jesus gives that back. "Surely on the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. " Despite my previous arguments with the 6 day creation thing I believe Adam did die on that very day. Spiritually. His body followed 930 years later. Look at his immediate behavior. He ran and hid. Sin was already at work. So it is with the rest of humanity we are born with sin natures. We are born dead it is the Holy Spirit (Ruak) that breathes life into us.

Your second paragraph Calvin would say: Yes. No you can't even believe unless the Holy Spirit quickens you. You're wrong. Sin natures is what is dealt with before sin can be dealt with.
 
Thinkingstuff

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
Amy.G said:
What it amounts to is a fetus must be saved in some other way besides grace through faith or a fetus cannot be saved. (according to Calvinism)
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Unless God elects the fetus. Then you just leave it up to God. God is soverign according to Calvin.
 
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