A question about Calvinism

[Me4Him]

Now I don't agree with much of Me4Him's views (no offence Me4Him) however in this he/she is correct.

"HE".

Matthew Henry states it this way:

Now here is the problem in the above. Since God is sincerly offering salvation to all men (without exception - as many Calvinists agree, yes Rippon I mean a large number here), and since it is to all men, then in order for God not to be liar in the offering of salvation propitiation had to be made for all. Otherwise how can you offer something you can not give and not be a liar and a fraud. Can we say this about God? No we can not thus the only logical conclusion is that if God offers salvation toward all men and commands all men everywhere to repent (the gospel) then He did something that ensures His offer is legitimate and true even toward those who will reject it.

One of the big mistakes people make is believing God can do anything/anyway he choses,

but that's not exactly true, God "OBLIGATES" himself to keep his word,

Even swearing an oath to Abraham.

When God said it wasn't his will for any to perish and no one comes except he call them,

God obligated himself to call everyone, else they would perish because of God's failure to call them and God would prove to be a lair.

God doesn't have to swear an oath to keep his word,

because he says precisely what he means and means precisely what he says.

 

[Me4Him]

double post.

 

[Allan]

"HE".

Cool :thumbs:

One of the big mistakes people make is believing God can do anything/anyway he choses,

but that's not exactly true, God "OBLIGATES" himself to keep his word,

Not sure what you are trying to say:
1. Do you think I was saying God can do whatever He wants?

2. Is it a general statement about some people's views?

I am going to 'assume' it is #2, and I agree with you again on this portion.

God can do whatever He so chooses, but He also must hold fast to whatever it is He has choosen and uphold it, thus He obligates Himself to either His word and or a people/person.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I'll repeat: a spiritually dead person is saved by grace through faith. There is no asterisk with "election" under it. That is another dispensation of salvation, and false doctrine.

So you're saying that the ability you have to believe is what saves which is a type of work rather than the working of God. In your soteriology people with the Mental Retardation (or severe learning disability) who are incapapble of understanding God are not saved? Wow... Saved by your ability to believe is still a work. God saves period.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What does dead mean?

dead (d

d)adj. dead·er, dead·est 1. Having lost life; no longer alive.


Being born with a sin nature means we have the nature to sin. How are you missing such simple definitions? We also are born with the nature to walk upright and talk, but I have yet to see a baby take his first step and say "Hi Mr. Doctor, Hi Mom!" immediately out of the womb. The sin nature is the same thing, at some point down the road we will sin, but just like not being created walkers and talkers, we are not created sinners.

That definition is a comparitive definition. In otherwords dependent on how something else is defined. With regard to the spirit I would define death as Inanimate or inert. Now comparitively if you compare mankinds condition with Adams initial condition you would have the sence; Mankind was alive(in Adam) but died (through Adams sin) then and continues to be dead. Which is why scriptures are always comparing the Original man and current man.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Then the majority of the church is in heresy.

This makes no sense in a baptist context. You must mean Churches. Unless you're supporting the idea of an invisible church.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

No, you are asserting this extra biblical qualifier for faith that is not supported in Scripture. Repeat...faith is NEVER a work in ANY instance.

It relies on an ability to make a decision. Specifically, on your ability to believe. You make the determination by which you choose to believe something told you. It places you in the position of God responsible for your own salvation. So then you could boast that by your superior ability to reason that you accepted the right course for salvation. Sounds like a work. All words are action rather than states of being. hmmm....

 

[Amy.G]

This makes no sense in a baptist context. You must mean Churches. Unless you're supporting the idea of an invisible church.

Maybe THIS will help.

 

[Me4Him]

Cool :thumbs:


Not sure what you are trying to say:
1. Do you think I was saying God can do whatever He wants?

2. Is it a general statement about some people's views?

I am going to 'assume' it is #2, and I agree with you again on this portion.

God can do whatever He so chooses, but He also must hold fast to whatever it is He has choosen and uphold it, thus He obligates Himself to either His word and or a people/person.

#2 is correct.

When God said "HE" wasn't willing for any to perish and Jesus died for the sins of the whole world that the whole world might be saved, and no one come except God calls,

That "obligated" God/Jesus to fulfil their part of the plan of salvation that "WOULD SAVE" the "Whole world".

This is where the doctrine that some were predestine to perish contradict the scriptures.

The Rich ruler had a "CHOICE" placed in front of him as does all men, one reason the gospel must be preached to the whole world before the end.

Predestination blame Jesus for not "enabling", giving him the "FAITH" to believe, so Jesus lied to him when he said "HE COULD, IF HE WOULD".

And that's the same thing Jesus told Israel, "I WOULD, YOU WOULDN'T".

Total depravity denies man has this ability.

The whole world is "justified" by God/Jesus to be saved,but "RIGHTEOUSNESS" doesn't arrive unless the "PERSON HAS FAITH", in Jesus.

"Grace (salvation) through Faith" is a term most "predestinist" :laugh: don't understand.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Maybe THIS will help.

Nice article but how is that supposed to help?

 

[webdog]

So you're saying that the ability you have to believe is what saves which is a type of work rather than the working of God. In your soteriology people with the Mental Retardation (or severe learning disability) who are incapapble of understanding God are not saved? Wow... Saved by your ability to believe is still a work. God saves period.

Strawman. Actually deal with what I say, not what you want to hear.

 

[webdog]

That definition is a comparitive definition. In otherwords dependent on how something else is defined. With regard to the spirit I would define death as Inanimate or inert. Now comparitively if you compare mankinds condition with Adams initial condition you would have the sence; Mankind was alive(in Adam) but died (through Adams sin) then and continues to be dead. Which is why scriptures are always comparing the Original man and current man.

Wow...the hoops some will jump through to redefine basic terms :BangHead:

 

[webdog]

It relies on an ability to make a decision. Specifically, on your ability to believe. You make the determination by which you choose to believe something told you. It places you in the position of God responsible for your own salvation. So then you could boast that by your superior ability to reason that you accepted the right course for salvation. Sounds like a work. All words are action rather than states of being. hmmm....

Yet another played out strawman that has been stated over...and over...and over...and over again here on the BB. It wasn't true 5 years ago, and it's not true now. Faith is NEVER A WORK in ANY INSTANCE.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Yet another played out strawman that has been stated over...and over...and over...and over again here on the BB. It wasn't true 5 years ago, and it's not true now. Faith is NEVER A WORK in ANY INSTANCE.

Yet another pseudo objection to a valid point of reason played over and over again for at least 5 years. The objection is as invalid now as it was then. Faith that is self obtain by self ability is a work. Faith must be given in order for it not to be a work. But by your own statement of ability for reason must one believe discounts those incapable of belief (Ie MR serious brain injury etc). The Strawman is your objection not the comment with regard to faith. You have taken the marine motto as your own with in the context of this debate. "The best defense is a good offense". Unfortunately, it doesn't hold up in this instance. Ah webdog I shall pray for thee and all thy multitude of calumnies against one so dear to the reformation by which in our minds eye Calvin must be.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Wow...the hoops some will jump through to redefine basic terms :BangHead:

No hoops. Basic reason. Does saying a deaf rock mean that at one time it heard? Not at all save it is defined by what it is not. Does not mean the definition is accurate in the context of speach. Unfortunately, Webdog it is you who is jumping through hoops.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Strawman. Actually deal with what I say, not what you want to hear.

methinks this phrase is favored by you too much! I have dealt with what you said. You really must take this Strawman, Lion, Tinman, and dog toto and follow the yellow brick road.

 

[OldRegular]

Yet another played out strawman that has been stated over...and over...and over...and over again here on the BB. It wasn't true 5 years ago, and it's not true now. Faith is NEVER A WORK in ANY INSTANCE.

You are correct! Saving Faith is never a work it is the gift of GOD even though you refuse to believe it. Your failure to believe the truth cannot change that truth.

 

[webdog]

No hoops. Basic reason. Does saying a deaf rock mean that at one time it heard? Not at all save it is defined by what it is not. Does not mean the definition is accurate in the context of speach. Unfortunately, Webdog it is you who is jumping through hoops.

Red Herring...I've never heard the phrase "deaf rock", and it makes no sense whatsoever. Creative, though...

 

[webdog]

You are correct! Saving Faith is never a work it is the gift of GOD even though you refuse to believe it. Your failure to believe the truth cannot change that truth.

Your failure to actually support this lame notion does not constitute truth, and don't pull the Eph. 2:8-9 card...it doesn't support the "gift of faith".

 

[webdog]

Faith that is self obtain by self ability is a work.

Proof (and not intellectual man's philosphy...biblical proof). You have been given Scripture stating the opposite, that faith is NEVER a work, yet you would rather hold onto man's definition's than God's. Quite sad. If God has given you the ability to have faith, it is never a work. There is no such thing as "self ability".