A question about Calvinisum

[Blammo]

Russell,

Let me just say, as a non-Cal, I am in full agreement with you on your last couple of posts. Believe it or not, as a non-Cal, I do believe in the sovereignty of God. I do not see how anyone could believe anything that happens would be out of God's control. That is not to say that God causes everything that happens. But, if something happens contrary to the will of God, He did allow to happen. He could have prevented it, but chose not to. God does not lie, God does not change, and God's word is truth. So there are going to be times when God allows something that is not perfect to occur.

You have given me much to ponder. Thank you for the civil manner in which you present your views.

Edited to add: It wasn't actually your last couple of posts (you posted a couple more times by the time I posted this) but I still agree. (So far)

 

[russell55]

Brother Bob,

You didn't deal with the scenario you yourself made up--a specific man cheating on his wife. Could God prevent it? Does he ever prevent similar things?

You don't even know the difinition of decree. It is not to allow, but is to cause it to happen.

DECREE
1 : to command or enjoin by or as if by decree <decree an amnesty>
2 : to determine or order judicially <decree a punishment>

Not Webster's definition, which doesn't define things as they are used in anything other than casual usage; but the theological one, which is more specific, and has to do with an authoritative person making a decision. If God, as the supreme authourity, makes a decision to allow a specific act to occur, then that's called a decree, under the theological definition. And remember, it's not only calvinists who define the term this way, theologically.

 

[Brother Bob]

No one is changing the meaning of words, except you. They are just using them with specific theological definitions--definition, by the way, that have been around for at least several hundred years, and are agreed upon by noncalvinist theologians as well as calvinist ones.

Sure you are, but we don't have to change any of them. Ironic isn't it?

And no calvinist believes that God decreeing that Adam would fall means that God led Adam to sin.

Again, if God decreed Adam to fall, then God caused him to fall.

Here is the Bible for it:
20: For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21: Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

But you must believe, have a good evening russell

 

[Jarthur001]

Finally russell has put forth the truth of Calvinism.

God is the author of sin and decrees it to happen by allowing it.

We say because God knows something, such as who will believe or not believe, He does not take away the choice of that man, but in the Sovereignity of God, allows that man to choose to believe or not to believe.

As you can see, the Calvinist don't believe that, they according to russell, believe if you believe, it is because God decreed for you to believe. If you go to Hell, it is because God decreed for you to go to Hell. If there are babies in Hell, God decreed for them to be there, according to russell.

“You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?”

 

[Hanna]

Of course God restrains evil, at times....but He didn't on 9/11 did He? God does what He wants to do, when He wants to do it. He doesn't HAVE to do anything and there is nothing he is prohibited from doing. But we cannot make him responsible for everything that happens. This is not a game board and we are not His pawns. If that is the case I don't understand what the point of any of it is. Why did Christ have to be crucified? Why is the Bible even necessary? Why are we commanded to witness? Why do we need to repent and believe? I don't get it:/

 

[Brother Bob]

“You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?”

Now russell;
Can you see why the fight between me and James always?

I only repeated what was said Jamie boy.

 

[MB]

Hi Hanna;

Jarthar, no I don't take a light view of God's sovereignty at all. I just think He doesn't micromanage all things. It rains, it snows, the wind blows. The purpose for this is to manage the environment. I believe God designed it to run itslef. He doesn't have to order every rain drop or summon each breeze.

However, that is not to say he can't. He can and perhaps does at times. He can and will do whatever he bloody wants to do and whenever he wants to do it.

He parted the red sea for the jews as they fled. Does he part the red sea every time a jew comes to the shore? No.

God can one day say for whatever reason, or no reason at all, that He wants to lift up a big chunk of ground in the ocean and the result is a tsunami that kills thousands of people. Sure, He can do that, but that doesn't necessarily mean He did. It could be just the natural way the earth works, as designed by its creator, God.

I agree; It seems the only natural thing there is, is an unsaved, non-elect man. The Particularity elect seem to be saved in their election with out faith and hope.
:godisgood:
The Bible says;
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Salvation is not with out condition. being made new is what we call born again. Once we are, we always are. Man cannot be born again, or regenerated unless he believes first. The Bible tells us so and I believe it.
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Simply put, there is no saving grace, with out faith first. We must have faith, to stand in grace...
MB

 

[Brother Bob]

dabar
daw-bar' which is Decree in Hebrew according to Strong's
a primitive root; perhaps properly, to arrange; but used figuratively (of words), to speak; rarely (in a destructive sense) to subdue:--answer, appoint, bid, command, commune, declare, destroy, give, name, promise, pronounce, rehearse, say, speak, be spokesman, subdue, talk, teach, tell, think, use (entreaties), utter, X well, X work.

I can't find "allow" no where in the difinition.

 

[Jarthur001]

Of course God restrains evil, at times....but He didn't on 9/11 did He? God does what He wants to do, when He wants to do it. He doesn't HAVE to do anything and there is nothing he is prohibited from doing. But we cannot make him responsible for everything that happens. This is not a game board and we are not His pawns. If that is the case I don't understand what the point of any of it is. Why did Christ have to be crucified? Why is the Bible even necessary? Why are we commanded to witness? Why do we need to repent and believe? I don't get it:/

In Daniel, when it came to chapter 4, Daniel handed the pen to Nebuchadnezzar for he had something to say. And this is it....

1Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all the peoples, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth: Peace be multiplied unto you. 2It hath seemed good unto me to show the signs and wonders that the Most High God hath wrought toward me. 3How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation. 4I, Nebuchadnezzar, was at rest in my house, and flourishing in my palace. 5I saw a dream which made me afraid; and the thoughts upon my bed and the visions of my head troubled me. 6Therefore made I a decree to bring in all the wise men of Babylon before me, that they might make known unto me the interpretation of the dream. 7Then came in the magicians, the enchanters, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers; and I told the dream before them; but they did not make known unto me the interpretation thereof. 8But at the last Daniel came in before me, whose name was Belteshazzar, according to the name of my god, and in whom is the spirit of the holy gods: and I told the dream before him, saying, 9O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof. 10Thus were the visions of my head upon my bed: I saw, and, behold, a tree in the midst of the earth; and the height thereof was great. 11The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth. 12The leaves thereof were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was food for all: the beasts of the field had shadow under it, and the birds of the heavens dwelt in the branches thereof, and all flesh was fed from it. 13I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and a holy one came down from heaven. 14He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off its branches, shake off its leaves, and scatter its fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from its branches. 15Nevertheless leave the stump of its roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven: and let his portion be with the beasts in the grass of the earth: 16let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him. 17The sentence is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones; to the intent that the living may know that the Most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the lowest of men. 18This dream I, king Nebuchadnezzar, have seen; and thou, O Belteshazzar, declare the interpretation, forasmuch as all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to make known unto me the interpretation; but thou art able; for the spirit of the holy gods is in thee. 19Then Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, was stricken dumb for a while, and his thoughts troubled him. The king answered and said, Belteshazzar, let not the dream, or the interpretation, trouble thee. Belteshazzar answered and said, My lord, the dream be to them that hate thee, and the interpretation thereof to thine adversaries. 20The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth; 21whose leaves were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was food for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the birds of the heavens had their habitation: 22it is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong; for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth. 23And whereas the king saw a watcher and a holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew down the tree, and destroy it; nevertheless leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field, and let it be wet with the dew of heaven: and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him; 24this is the interpretation, O king, and it is the decree of the Most High, which is come upon my lord the king: 25that thou shalt be driven from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and thou shalt be made to eat grass as oxen, and shalt be wet with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee; till thou know that the Most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. 26And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the roots of the tree; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule. 27Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by showing mercy to the poor; if there may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity. 28All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar. 29At the end of twelve months he was walking in the royal palace of Babylon. 30The king spake and said, Is not this great Babylon, which I have built for the royal dwelling-place, by the might of my power and for the glory of my majesty? 31While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken: The kingdom is departed from thee: 32and thou shalt be driven from men; and they dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field; thou shalt be made to eat grass as oxen; and seven times shall pass over thee; until thou know that the Most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. 33The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hair was grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws. 34And at the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the Most High, and I praised and honored him that liveth for ever; for his dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom from generation to generation. 35And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? 36At the same time mine understanding returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, my majesty and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent greatness was added unto me. 37Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven; for all his works are truth, and his ways justice; and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Hi Hanna;

I agree; It seems the only natural thing there is, is an unsaved, non-elect man. The Particularity elect seem to be saved in their election with out faith and hope.
:godisgood:
The Bible says;
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Salvation is not with out condition. being made new is what we call born again. Once we are, we always are. Man cannot be born again, or regenerated unless he believes first. The Bible tells us so and I believe it.
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Simply put, there is no saving grace, with out faith first. We must have faith, to stand in grace...
MB

MB, do you think that belief is an exercise of the will?

 

[Brother Bob]

I agree with you wholeheartly MB!

They always and always have to run to the under the Law and the Ordainances and decrees before the coming of Christ as Jauthor is cheif of them to do that to try and prove Calvinism.

I ask you, do you see one scripture by Jauthor from the NT????? He wants to get back there where all them concubines are.

 

[russell55]

Blammo,

Thank you. I really appreciate your remarks.

I'll answer the rest of the posts directed at me tomorrow.

 

[Jarthur001]

PINK.......

‘Free moral agency’ is an expression of human invention and, as we have said before, to talk of the freedom of the natural man is to flatly repudiate his spiritual ruin. Nowhere does Scripture speak of the freedom or moral ability of the sinner, on the contrary, it insists on his moral and spiritual inability.
This is, admittedly, the most difficult branch of our subject. Those who have ever devoted much study to this theme have uniformly recognized that the harmonizing of God’s Sovereignty with Man’s Responsibility is the gordian knot[1] of theology.
The main difficulty encountered is to define the relationship between God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility. Many have summarily disposed of the difficulty by denying its existence. A certain class of theologians, in their anxiety to maintain man’s responsibility, have magnified it beyond all due proportions, until God’s sovereignty has been lost sight of, and in not a few instances flatly denied. Others have acknowledged that the Scriptures present both the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man, but affirm that in our present finite condition and with our limited knowledge it is impossible to reconcile the two truths, though it is the bounden duty of the believer to receive both. The present writer believes that it has been too readily assumed that the Scriptures themselves do not reveal the several points which show the conciliation of God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility. While perhaps the Word of God does not clear up all the mystery (and this is said with reserve), it does throw much light upon the problem, and it seems to us more honoring to God and His Word to prayerfully search the Scriptures for the complete solution of the difficulty, and even though others have thus far searched in vain, that ought only to drive us more and more to our knees. God has been pleased to reveal many things out of His Word during the last century which were hidden from earlier students. Who then dare affirm that there is not much to be learned yet respecting our present inquiry!
As we have said above, our chief difficulty is to determine the meeting-point of God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility. To many it has seemed that for God to assert His sovereignty, for Him to put forth His power and exert a direct influence upon man, for Him to do anything more than warn or invite, would be to interfere with man’s freedom, destroy his responsibility, and reduce him to a machine. It is sad indeed to find one like the late Dr. Pierson—whose writings are generally so scriptural and helpful—saying, "It is a tremendous thought that even God Himself cannot control my moral frame, or constrain my moral choice. He cannot prevent me defying and denying Him, and would not exercise His power in such directions if He could, and could not if He would" (A Spiritual Clinique). It is sadder still to discover that many other respected and loved brethren are giving expression to the same sentiments. Sad, because directly at variance with the Holy Scriptures.
It is our desire to face honestly the difficulties involved, and to examine them carefully in what light God has been pleased to grant us. The chief difficulties might be expressed thus: first, How is it possible for God to so bring His power to bear upon men that they are prevented from doing what they desire to do, and impelled to do other things they do not desire to do, and yet to preserve their responsibility? Second, How can the sinner be held responsible for the doing of what he is unable to do? And how can he be justly condemned for not doing what he could not do? Third, How is it possible for God to decree that men shall commit certain sins, hold them responsible in the committal of them, and adjudge them guilty because they committed them? Fourth, How can the sinner be held responsible to receive Christ, and be damned for rejecting Him, when God had foreordained him to condemnation? We shall now deal with these several problems in the above order. May the Holy Spirit Himself be our Teacher, so that in His light we may see light.
I. How is it possible for God to so bring His power to bear upon men that they are PREVENTED from doing what they desire to do, and IMPELL to do other things they do not desire to do, and yet to preserve their responsibility?

It would seem that if God put forth His power and exerted a direct influence upon men their freedom would be interfered with. It would appear that if God did anything wore than warn and invite men their responsibility would be infringed upon. We are told that God must not coerce man, still less compel him, or otherwise he would be reduced to a machine. This sounds very plausible; it appears to be good philosophy, and based upon sound reasoning; it has been almost universally accepted as an axiom in ethics; nevertheless, it is refuted by Scripture!
Let us turn first to Genesis 20:6—"And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against Me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her." It is argued, almost universally, that God must not interfere with man’s liberty, that he must not coerce or compel him, lest he be reduced to a machine. But the above scripture proves, unmistakably proves, that it is not impossible for God to exert His power upon man without destroying his responsibility. Here is a case where God did exert His power, restrict man’s freedom, and prevent him from doing that which he otherwise would have done.
Ere turning from this scripture, let us note how it throws light upon the case of the first man. Would-be philosophers, who sought to be wise above that which was written, have argued that God could not have prevented Adam’s fall without reducing him to a mere automaton. They tell us, constantly, that God must not coerce or compel His creatures, otherwise He would destroy their accountability. But the answer to all such philosophizing is, that Scripture records a number of instances where we are expressly told God did prevent certain of His creatures from sinning both against Himself and against His people, in view of which all men’s reasonings are utterly worthless. If God could "withhold" Abimelech from sinning against Him, then why was He unable to do the same with Adam? Should someone ask, Then why did not God do so? we might return the question by asking, Why did not God "withhold" Satan from falling? or, Why did not God "withhold" the Kaiser from starting the recent War? The usual reply is, as we have said, God could not without interfering with man’s "freedom" and reducing him to a machine. But the case of Abimelech proves conclusively that such a reply is untenable and erroneous—we might add wicked and blasphemous, for who are we to limit the Most High! How dare any finite creature take it upon him to say what the Almighty can and cannot do? Should we be pressed further as to why God refused to exercise His power and prevent Adam’s fall, we should say, Because Adam’s fall better served His own wise and blessed purpose—among other things, it provided an opportunity to demonstrate that where sin had abounded grace could much more abound. But we might ask further; Why did God place in the garden the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, when He foresaw that man would disobey His prohibition and eat of it; for mark, it was God and not Satan who made that tree. Should someone respond, Then is God the Author of Sin? We would have to ask, in turn, What is meant by "Author"? Plainly it was God’s will that sin should enter this world, otherwise it would not have entered, for nothing happens save as God has eternally decreed. Moreover, there was more than a bare permission, for God only permits that which He has purposed. But we leave now the origin of sin, insisting once more, however, that God could have "withheld" Adam from sinning without destroying his responsibility.
The case of Abimelech does not stand alone. Another illustration of the same principle is seen in the history of Balaam, already noticed in the last chapter, but concerning which a further word is in place. Balak the Moabite sent for this heathen prophet to "curse" Israel. A handsome reward was offered for his services, and a careful reading of Numbers 22-24 will show that Balaam was willing, yea, anxious, to accept Balak’s offer and thus sin against God and His people. But Divine power "withheld" him. Mark his own admission, "And Balaam said unto Balak, Lo, I am come unto thee: have I now any power at all to say anything? the word that God putteth in my mouth, that shall I speak" (Num. 22:38). Again, after Balak had remonstrated with Balaam, we read, "He answered and said, Must I not take heed to speak that which the Lord hath put in my mouth? . . . Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and He hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it" (23:12, 20). Surely these verses show us God’s power, and Balaam’s powerlessness: man’s will frustrated, and God’s will performed. But was Balaam’s "freedom" or responsibility destroyed? Certainly not, as we shall yet seek to show.

 

[Brother Bob]

I am glad you Calvinist are posting all this stuff for now no one has to guess what you believe that God created a majority of men and women just to destroy them without even giving them a chance. Now I know you will say that is not what you believe but it is what you say.

 

[reformedbeliever]

How about you Bob. Do you think belief is an exercise of the will? Lets see if you will answer directly... seeing as how you would not answer Russell's questions earlier.

 

[Brother Bob]

whose will?????

Do you believe that the vast majority of God's creation will not have their hearts regenerated by God because He chooses not to regenerate them?? Now step up to the plate.

 

[Jarthur001]

I agree with you wholeheartly MB!

They always and always have to run to the under the Law and the Ordainances and decrees before the coming of Christ as Jauthor is cheif of them to do that to try and prove Calvinism.

I ask you, do you see one scripture by Jauthor from the NT????? He wants to get back there where all them concubines are.

It seems like it was you that said the church started in the OT. Are you now changing your mind?

It seems like it was you that has on your web site how we should follow the OT law. Do you now change your mind?

 

[reformedbeliever]

whose will?????

Let me make this as clear as possible for you. If a man exercises saving faith in Jesus Christ, is that an exercise of his (the man's) will?

 

[reformedbeliever]

Well I guess Bro. Bob does not agree wholeheartedly with MB. MB said that one has to believe before regeneration. I asked both if they thought belief is an exercise of the will. Is that a simple question?

 

[Brother Bob]

Let me make this as clear as possible for you. If a man exercises saving faith in Jesus Christ, is that an exercise of his (the man's) will?

The woman with the issue of blood did.

Case after case did.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

I believe also so my answer would yes, I believe a man must believe or he will die in his sins and where Jesus is he cannot go.

You did not answer my question?

Do you believe that the vast majority of God's creation will not have their hearts regenerated by God because He chooses not to regenerate them?? Now step up to the plate.

It seems like it was you that said the church started in the OT. Are you now changing your mind?

It seems like it was you that has on your web site how we should follow the OT law. Do you now change your mind?

No, I still believe the same James. You misunderstand most of what I believe but I am still the same. You haven't moved me one inch.