A question about Calvinisum

Originally Posted by psalms109:31
Calling
Converstion (repentance and faith)
Predestination
Election
Regeneration
Justification
Sanctification
Glorification

First is the calling to repentance of our past sins, and the faith of either to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned, those who believe are predested to salvation and those who do not is predestined to condemnation by the words of Jesus. Those who believe are the elect of God to salvation.

I didn't have to rethink this, this is what God has convinced me of in my youth.

The Jews was elected to be the children of God, but was cut out for unbelief.

So Believers are the elect. It is men who confused the message of God, and many still need milk, taught the basics all over again.

 

Yes...I understand. So I ask again...what is election for?

 

Chosen

It is being chosen, but in God's choosing we can go two path to believe and be elected to salvation or not and be elected to condemnation.

My good news that i was told to preach isn't election.

16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

 

Sorry to be so hard headed. I still need to go over this.

1) First is the calling to repentance
2) those who choose to believe are ...
3) predestined to salvation.
4) election?????

Why do we need election? Are they not saved after they choose to believe?

 

No, that is where you accuse us wrong.
We believe and then God adds us to the church daily as such should be.
That would put Salvation in our hands and Salvation is of the Lord.
We never have claimed we could save ourselves.

 

That wasn't my list I was stating who "election" is for. If you can show in context where the "elect" are any other than jews, I'm all cyber ears.

 

Allan,

John goes over this in great detail. Lets look.

 

Jews

You are right to say that the Jews are the elect of God, but those who have been cut out was cut out not because they were not chosen, but because of unbelief.

We are included with the believing Jews when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed.

So ultimately believers is the elect of God unto salvation.

God first loved us the world, when He gave His life at the cross.

So what are you going to do with Jesus?

 

You are correct that we...believing gentiles...are one in Christ with and alongside the elect...believing jews...but we (believing gentiles) are not referred to in context as eklegomai, eklektos, or ekloge. This is why I have such a hard time with calvinism using the "elect" moniker on all believers, as the context attaches the phrase with believing jews.

 

According to Calvinism as I know it, yes. And that is why I am not a Calvinist. (Even though I keep almost becoming one)

 

Hanna,

I hope the Cs will correct me if I am wrong. But, I think they are afraid if man plays any part in even accepting salvation it makes God subject to man (Threatens the sovereignty of God). I disagree. It is God who designed the plan of salvation. He put before man a choice. If man is only capable of one option, it is no choice at all. If God causes a man to choose correctly, it does not violate man's will, it violates God's own word. God cannot lie, God does not change, and God's word is truth.

 

Hanna;
Blammo didn't say it was true. He said that is what the Calvinist believe.
All that happens to the believer is predestinated, such as being conformed to the image of His Son. Well if you choose Christ and believe and God adds you to the church such as should be saved then you become a new creature and conformed to the image of His Son, which all believers are predestinated to be changed. Not the believer themselves but what happens to them. If you believe it is also predestinated that you will be "justified" by the blood of Christ. If you believe, it is also predestinated that because you are a believer you are then predestinated to be "glorified".

God is an "all knowing God" and is from everylasting to everylasting and because He knows who will believe and not believe does not mean He caused it to happen that way. It only means that God is outside of time and is able to see the end from the beginning.

You still have a choice to choose who you believe and want to serve. Because God can see you do it, does not mean he caused you to do it. But after you have believed then God does all the rest, Salvation, predestination, justification and Glorified.

Hope that helps for it is how I deal with predestination and what I think the scripture says about it.
They will be plenty answer my post as always but don't let it deter you. Bless,

If you can always keep in your mind that God works outside of time and has already seen our "death and resurrection". If you can keep this in mind then "predestination" is not hard at all to understand.

 

Hanna,

For 40 years my Dad wanted nothing to do with God. He had read a Calvinist tract when he was a teen and wanted nothing to do with a God who was so cold. He wanted nothing to do with a God who's intention was to create a few for Heaven, a majority for Hell, and all for the purpose of glorifying Himself. It wasn't until someone was able to show my Dad, in the Bible, that salvation is a free gift available to whosoever will receive it, that my Dad was able to believe and be saved. He now knows God and loves Him with all his heart.

Again, Cs, please correct me if I am wrong. But, I have a hard time believing anyone becomes a Calvinist before they are saved. Otherwise they would walk through life looking only at their works for evidence that they are indeed part of the elect. At no time would they dare try to play a part in their salvation by asking for it.

 

I have preached many many funerals the last 34 years and many have been just like your Dad. I have never attempted to say they were saved or lost. I alway preached they were in the hands of a just God, who will do right by them. Who knows what the thoughts of a man are on his way out. It only take God a moment of time to save us and takes us a lifetime to prove it. amen,

 

Let is be shown once again that those that hold to freewill, base it primary on human emotions and mans logic and not the Bible….as we have just seen in the last few post. We could all play those emotions.

Was asked…

Believing in mans will to choose God at any time, does not save a person. As said in my 1st post on this thread, you cannot force salvation on a person.

It could be asked…How can a lady have a child, when they know the child may CHOOSE to be a killer and hate God?

Was asked…

I know you guys mean well, but please understand what you are doing here.
You are asking God, why He is like He is.

God has always had a “people”. Trace the line to Christ.

Adam was 1st chosen, and then Able not Cain. Cain was the 1st to bring an offering to God, but it was rejected. Why? Cain could have made it right, but Abel’s was loved. Would you reject a poorly made card from you child? I have got many such cards and loved them, for I love my child. I put on a smiley face to wear to a business meeting, for my girl made it. Was it great art? No it was ugly. But I loved it because my girl made it. God rejected Cains offering and loved Ables. Why? Because God is more then just LOVE.

Cain killed Able and then it was Seth. God told Cain to leave and never come back. Cain was never able to be saved. Could God have come back and forgiven Cain 2-3 years later? My wife forgives me when I do wrong. Could God not forgive Cain? Yes…But he did not. Why?

Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Notice it was AFTER Noah found grace that God said Noah was just. Why not find grace in Tim? Because God does as He wills. Notice…18But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. Many more people could have fit on the ark, but God only made a covenant with Noah and his Family. Why? Because God can do as He wills.

Then came Abram chosen Ur and told “Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:” Why did God choose Abram and not tom? Because God can do as He wishes.

Abram had 2 sons. Ishmael the 1st and Isaac the 2nd. Why did God choose the 2nd son? Because God can do as He pleases.

Isaac fathered Jacob ..and Jacob was 2nd son behind Esau. Two nations are in your womb, two peoples shall be separated from your body; one people shall be stronger than the other, and the older shall serve the younger. Why did God decree this? God said He hated Esau and loved Jacob. Why? Because God can do as He wishes.

Why did God choose Joseph over his brothers?
Why did God say no to David’s brothers and choose David?
Why did God choose Mary?
Why was Christ born in a small town and not a big city like Rome?
More people in Rome to be saved.

Why did the angel come to men keeping sheep and not to the Jewish leaders? The leaders were looking for Christ. The leaders could have told more people then the Shepard’s

Why was Luke chosen?
Why choose Peter?
Why Matthew, Mark and John?
Why not billy bob?

Why was Paul chosen when he was killing believers, and the rich young ruler was not when he was not killing anyone.

God does as He wills. God elects. God has a people.

Can we not let God be God? Can not God elect as He always has? Should God change because you do not like it?

 

If man is only given free choice as Adam was, man will choose sin as Adam did. We need God to save us from our will.

 

It seems like the Bible says Christ chooses US. Look and see if that is what it says and get back with us.
Please take salvation out of the hands of men and place it in Gods hands. Thanks.

While you are at it, look and see if God elects before we are born.

Thank God for His controling power!!!!