A question about Calvinisum

[Hanna]

To further explain the weather thing.

There is a system in place that makes rain. Rain, evaporation, moisture gathering making clouds, movement of the clouds by the wind, gathering more moisture as they move along and when they are too full to hold anymore, wala, rain. God designed this system. How intimately does he have to be involved with it? I haven't a clue. Perhaps he directs the wind or whatever, but weather he does or he doesn't does not mean that we can blame him for everything bad that happens as a result of weather. We KNOW weather happens. Look at these goofballs building big fancy homes on stilts right next to the ocean. I look at that and I have to wonder if they are seeing the same picture I see. It doesn't look too practical to me. But boy howdy when their house gets washed away they will be wondering why God let that happen. You can't blame God for such things. Its not His fault.

 

[psalms109:31]

Originally Posted by psalms109:31
Calling
Converstion (repentance and faith)
Predestination
Election
Regeneration
Justification
Sanctification
Glorification

What is election for as viewed in the order above??

First is the calling to repentance of our past sins, and the faith of either to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned, those who believe are predested to salvation and those who do not is predestined to condemnation by the words of Jesus. Those who believe are the elect of God to salvation.

I didn't have to rethink this, this is what God has convinced me of in my youth.

The Jews was elected to be the children of God, but was cut out for unbelief.

So Believers are the elect. It is men who confused the message of God, and many still need milk, taught the basics all over again.

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally Posted by psalms109:31
Calling
Converstion (repentance and faith)
Predestination
Election
Regeneration
Justification
Sanctification
Glorification


First is the calling to repentance of our past sins, and the faith of either to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned, those who believe are predested to salvation and those who do not is predestined to condemnation by the words of Jesus. Those who believe are the elect of God to salvation.
....Snipped....

So Believers are the elect. It is men who confused the message of God, and many still need milk, taught the basics all over again.

Yes...I understand. So I ask again...what is election for?

 

[psalms109:31]

Chosen

It is being chosen, but in God's choosing we can go two path to believe and be elected to salvation or not and be elected to condemnation.

My good news that i was told to preach isn't election.

16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

 

[Jarthur001]

It is being chosen, but in God's choosing we can go two path to believe and be elected to salvation or not and be elected to condemnation.

My good news that i was told to preach isn't election.

16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Sorry to be so hard headed. I still need to go over this.

1) First is the calling to repentance
2) those who choose to believe are ...
3) predestined to salvation.
4) election?????

Why do we need election? Are they not saved after they choose to believe?

 

[Brother Bob]

No, that is where you accuse us wrong.
We believe and then God adds us to the church daily as such should be.
That would put Salvation in our hands and Salvation is of the Lord.
We never have claimed we could save ourselves.

 

[webdog]

Ok..so we list the order again.



God calls ....
Then Converstion happens.....to who?
Then those that are converted, Predestination comes to them...
and so...then the Jews are elected......????
Then the converted, predestined, elected jews are now born again????????

:BangHead:

I think I'll stick to this order..

Election
Predestination
Calling
Regeneration
Converstion (repentance and faith)
Justification
Sanctification
Glorification

Its more what we find in the Bible.

That wasn't my list I was stating who "election" is for. If you can show in context where the "elect" are any other than jews, I'm all cyber ears.

 

[Jarthur001]

Allan,

John goes over this in great detail. Lets look.

4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

NOTE: I want you to notice why they overcome. Because of what is in you. Now this proves nothing by itself. But it may mean something later.

5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.


NOTE: The "they" in this verse is from verse 3.

3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world

"they" are confessed for "they" and of the world and not of God.

6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

NOTE:...the reason why we hear, is because we are born of God. And what of those that are not born of God? Well..John says those that are not born of God, do not hear.

7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

NOTE: In addressing our subject, what we need to remember here is.."each and every one that "loveth"....is born of God. This is speaking of loving God and other believers. So...you must be born of God, to love God.

8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

NOTE: If you love not God....if you love not other believes...you do not know God...nor are not born of God.(back to verse 7)

9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

NOTE: We live (new birth) through Christ. We all agree.

10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

NOTE: Notive this is what love is. God loved us that we can love Him. Yet remember...we can not love Him, unless we are born of God. So...God loves us..we are born again...and then we love God.

11Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

13Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

NOTE: the reason why we dwell in Him. Because He(God) has given us(believer) the Spirit to understand the truth. Remember above...the world cannot overcome...for they cannot hear(understand)...for they are not born of God. How can they believe? They cannot. How can they overcome the devil and love God? They cannot. We do not love God to get the overcoming power. God loves us and gives us understanding(born again) to love God..therefore we are saved, for we are in love with God.

Who starts this all....tis God. Look in verse 19...

19We love him, because he first loved us.

Just as seen above. We love GOD...only because He loved us 1st.

1 John 5

1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

In Christ...James

 

[psalms109:31]

Jews

You are right to say that the Jews are the elect of God, but those who have been cut out was cut out not because they were not chosen, but because of unbelief.

We are included with the believing Jews when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed.

So ultimately believers is the elect of God unto salvation.

God first loved us the world, when He gave His life at the cross.

So what are you going to do with Jesus?

 

[webdog]

You are right to say that the Jews are the elect of God, but those who have been cut out was cut out not because they were not chosen, but because of unbelief.

We are included with the believing Jews when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed.

So ultimately believers is the elect of God unto salvation.

God first loved us the world, when He gave His life at the cross.

So what are you going to do with Jesus?

You are correct that we...believing gentiles...are one in Christ with and alongside the elect...believing jews...but we (believing gentiles) are not referred to in context as eklegomai, eklektos, or ekloge. This is why I have such a hard time with calvinism using the "elect" moniker on all believers, as the context attaches the phrase with believing jews.

 

[Blammo]

Concerning predestination/election...does this mean that there are those born into the world for whom there is no hope. That no amount of prayer or witnessing will make any difference because God does not/will not/did not choose them?

According to Calvinism as I know it, yes. And that is why I am not a Calvinist. (Even though I keep almost becoming one)

 

[Hanna]

Well I guess I am right back where I started. If we are predestined to salvation, why did Christ have to die? Why does Jesus say again and again, repent and believe, what is the purpose for this whole thing, how can a woman ever concieve a child if she believes it may not be among the chosen? And if God is love, how is it that He can only love some of us. Doesn't he love even the sinner? And after reading your posts for a few days I don't understand how you c's know you are saved.

 

[Blammo]

Hanna,

I hope the Cs will correct me if I am wrong. But, I think they are afraid if man plays any part in even accepting salvation it makes God subject to man (Threatens the sovereignty of God). I disagree. It is God who designed the plan of salvation. He put before man a choice. If man is only capable of one option, it is no choice at all. If God causes a man to choose correctly, it does not violate man's will, it violates God's own word. God cannot lie, God does not change, and God's word is truth.

 

[Brother Bob]

Hanna;
Blammo didn't say it was true. He said that is what the Calvinist believe.
All that happens to the believer is predestinated, such as being conformed to the image of His Son. Well if you choose Christ and believe and God adds you to the church such as should be saved then you become a new creature and conformed to the image of His Son, which all believers are predestinated to be changed. Not the believer themselves but what happens to them. If you believe it is also predestinated that you will be "justified" by the blood of Christ. If you believe, it is also predestinated that because you are a believer you are then predestinated to be "glorified".

God is an "all knowing God" and is from everylasting to everylasting and because He knows who will believe and not believe does not mean He caused it to happen that way. It only means that God is outside of time and is able to see the end from the beginning.

You still have a choice to choose who you believe and want to serve. Because God can see you do it, does not mean he caused you to do it. But after you have believed then God does all the rest, Salvation, predestination, justification and Glorified.

Hope that helps for it is how I deal with predestination and what I think the scripture says about it.
They will be plenty answer my post as always but don't let it deter you. Bless,

If you can always keep in your mind that God works outside of time and has already seen our "death and resurrection". If you can keep this in mind then "predestination" is not hard at all to understand.

 

[Hanna]

Brother Bob....when my father passed away, all evidence indicated that he was not saved. Calvanisum tells me that is God's fault. I believe it was dad's fault because he couldn't let go of his foolish pride. God loved dad but dad didn't love Him back.

 

[Blammo]

Hanna,

For 40 years my Dad wanted nothing to do with God. He had read a Calvinist tract when he was a teen and wanted nothing to do with a God who was so cold. He wanted nothing to do with a God who's intention was to create a few for Heaven, a majority for Hell, and all for the purpose of glorifying Himself. It wasn't until someone was able to show my Dad, in the Bible, that salvation is a free gift available to whosoever will receive it, that my Dad was able to believe and be saved. He now knows God and loves Him with all his heart.

Again, Cs, please correct me if I am wrong. But, I have a hard time believing anyone becomes a Calvinist before they are saved. Otherwise they would walk through life looking only at their works for evidence that they are indeed part of the elect. At no time would they dare try to play a part in their salvation by asking for it.

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob....when my father passed away, all evidence indicated that he was not saved. Calvanisum tells me that is God's fault. I believe it was dad's fault because he couldn't let go of his foolish pride. God loved dad but dad didn't love Him back.

I have preached many many funerals the last 34 years and many have been just like your Dad. I have never attempted to say they were saved or lost. I alway preached they were in the hands of a just God, who will do right by them. Who knows what the thoughts of a man are on his way out. It only take God a moment of time to save us and takes us a lifetime to prove it. amen,

 

[Jarthur001]

Let is be shown once again that those that hold to freewill, base it primary on human emotions and mans logic and not the Bible….as we have just seen in the last few post. We could all play those emotions.

Was asked…

how can a woman ever concieve a child if she believes it may not be among the chosen?

Believing in mans will to choose God at any time, does not save a person. As said in my 1st post on this thread, you cannot force salvation on a person.

It could be asked…How can a lady have a child, when they know the child may CHOOSE to be a killer and hate God?

Was asked…

And if God is love, how is it that He can only love some of us.?

I know you guys mean well, but please understand what you are doing here.
You are asking God, why He is like He is.

God has always had a “people”. Trace the line to Christ.

Adam was 1st chosen, and then Able not Cain. Cain was the 1st to bring an offering to God, but it was rejected. Why? Cain could have made it right, but Abel’s was loved. Would you reject a poorly made card from you child? I have got many such cards and loved them, for I love my child. I put on a smiley face to wear to a business meeting, for my girl made it. Was it great art? No it was ugly. But I loved it because my girl made it. God rejected Cains offering and loved Ables. Why? Because God is more then just LOVE.

Cain killed Able and then it was Seth. God told Cain to leave and never come back. Cain was never able to be saved. Could God have come back and forgiven Cain 2-3 years later? My wife forgives me when I do wrong. Could God not forgive Cain? Yes…But he did not. Why?

Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Notice it was AFTER Noah found grace that God said Noah was just. Why not find grace in Tim? Because God does as He wills. Notice…18But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. Many more people could have fit on the ark, but God only made a covenant with Noah and his Family. Why? Because God can do as He wills.

Then came Abram chosen Ur and told “Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:” Why did God choose Abram and not tom? Because God can do as He wishes.

Abram had 2 sons. Ishmael the 1st and Isaac the 2nd. Why did God choose the 2nd son? Because God can do as He pleases.

Isaac fathered Jacob ..and Jacob was 2nd son behind Esau. Two nations are in your womb, two peoples shall be separated from your body; one people shall be stronger than the other, and the older shall serve the younger. Why did God decree this? God said He hated Esau and loved Jacob. Why? Because God can do as He wishes.

Why did God choose Joseph over his brothers?
Why did God say no to David’s brothers and choose David?
Why did God choose Mary?
Why was Christ born in a small town and not a big city like Rome?
More people in Rome to be saved.

Why did the angel come to men keeping sheep and not to the Jewish leaders? The leaders were looking for Christ. The leaders could have told more people then the Shepard’s

Why was Luke chosen?
Why choose Peter?
Why Matthew, Mark and John?
Why not billy bob?

Why was Paul chosen when he was killing believers, and the rich young ruler was not when he was not killing anyone.

God does as He wills. God elects. God has a people.

Can we not let God be God? Can not God elect as He always has? Should God change because you do not like it?

 

[Jarthur001]

Hanna,

I hope the Cs will correct me if I am wrong. But, I think they are afraid if man plays any part in even accepting salvation it makes God subject to man (Threatens the sovereignty of God). I disagree. It is God who designed the plan of salvation. He put before man a choice. If man is only capable of one option, it is no choice at all. If God causes a man to choose correctly, it does not violate man's will, it violates God's own word. God cannot lie, God does not change, and God's word is truth.

If man is only given free choice as Adam was, man will choose sin as Adam did. We need God to save us from our will.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hanna;
Blammo didn't say it was true. He said that is what the Calvinist believe.
All that happens to the believer is predestinated, such as being conformed to the image of His Son. Well if you choose Christ and believe and God adds you to the church such as should be saved then you become a new creature and conformed to the image of His Son, which all believers are predestinated to be changed.

It seems like the Bible says Christ chooses US. Look and see if that is what it says and get back with us.
Please take salvation out of the hands of men and place it in Gods hands. Thanks.

While you are at it, look and see if God elects before we are born.

Thank God for His controling power!!!!