A question about Calvinisum

[AresMan]

How does the Calvinist explain the verse that says:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The same way they have done so time and time again on this board.

2Pe 1:1

 

[Jarthur001]

So, you think God decreed Adam to fall? This is going no where.

If God decreed me to get killed by a Mack truck then how come the Calvinist outrun the rest when the roof of a mine is starting to fall? I mean, if God decreed it what good is it to run?

1 Kings, chapter 3

"14": And if thou wilt walk in my ways, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as thy father David did walk, then I will lengthen thy days.

Pro 9:11 For by me thy days shall be multiplied, and the years of thy life shall be increased.

Deu 5:16 ¶ Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Not all people that die young are evil.

Jesus said this...

Luke 13

1There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

2And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

4Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

5I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

 

[Hanna]

I guess I missed it;/

 

[Jarthur001]

How does the Calvinist explain the verse that says:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

hello Hanna,

RB "foresaw" this coming and has addressed this on page 7. The same verses always come up, so RB is no big prophet to know to address it. Maybe you didn't see it so I will repost.

When they quote 2 Peter 3:9. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.... who is the you? If you read the first letter Peter wrote.... He addresses it to the elect or chosen. 1 Peter 1:1. Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen....... The second letter is written to ; 2 Peter 1:1. Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: Those are the elect or chosen.
Now if 2 Peter 3:9 is read in context....... we see that the you are the elect. He is not willing that any of the elect would perish.
God chose people before the world was created. Ephesians 1: 4. just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Since He chose us before He created the world... He is patient.... He is waiting for the last of the chosen to be born and hear the Gospel and respond, before He will come again.
Let me ask you something. If God can not come till the last person has a chance to believe..... what about all the babies who are born in between the time the last person who will be saved hears and responds? He could never come back in that case. But if God has chosen people as the Bible says.... He will come back after the last of the elect come to faith. By the way, most Calvinist believe that God saves all the babies by His sovereign grace. I know I do.
Keep asking questions and study your Bible. The Holy Spirit will guide you. Just believe the Bible.
One more thing. There are no Calvinist who believe that a person exists who really wants to know Jesus and be saved, who can not. There is no such thing. Everyone who truly wants to beleive, who have faith, are saved. Grace and peace

The full post can be found on this link below if you care to read it.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=912130&postcount=64


In Christ...James

 

[Jarthur001]

I don't think you are understanding her question, Tom.

If you build a table and it then stands up and you can put things on it, that's great. It shows you know some carpentry. But how does that bring you any great joy? You knew you could do it and you did and then you use it.

In a similar way, if God invented some people to be saved and some not to be saved and that is what happens to them, so what? That is no more than animals doing what they were created to do. Dogs behave like dogs. No big deal. Goldfish behave like goldfish. Ditto. Saved behave like saved and unsaved behave like unsaved not because of any choice of their own, according to Calvinism, but because that is what they were created to do.

No big deal. Why would there be rejoicing in heaven when the whole thing was pre-planned in terms of salvation and who would be who? God being God, one would expect Him to be able to create things to do exactly as He planned them to do. What glory in that?

That is her question. If people are functionally programmed, just as the animals are, then we really are no different from animals. How then can it be said we are created in the image of God?

Are you asking Tom or God?

 

[Hanna]

Thanks Jarthur001 Glad he had the foreknowledge to address my questions ahead of time Good funny

 

[reformedbeliever]

The same verses always come up, so RB is no big prophet to know to address it.

What? I'm not a prophet? lol I may not foretell, but I forth-tell a lot. Thanks for helping me out there James. I've been out in the cold inviting people to come to our church. And people say Calvinist are not evangelistic.:BangHead: I should learn to not stick my tongue on the frozen flag pole, or I'da been back sooner. Really hurt when they pulled me off it.:laugh: Nope, I'm not a prophet, but we can kinda see the questions before they come huh? We have been down this road a time or two. Thing is, this kind of debate sharpens the iron. Praise God!

 

[Jarthur001]

What? I'm not a prophet? lol I may not foretell, but I forth-tell a lot.

Amen to the Forth-tell, and please always do so. I enjoy reading your post brother. Always stand for the truth, even when others would have you turn. Thank you for loving the Word Brother RB. God bless you as you press on till He comes.


In Christ...James

 

[Tom Butler]

About prayer, Tom. We may or may not understand how it works, but the Bible tells us that the prayers of righteous men are powerful and effective.

That would be impossible in a Calvinist world.

I agree with you that the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
But it is because of God's grace and mercy in answering prayer, not because prayer has an inherent power.

Naturally, I disagree with your take on Calvinist prayer. I do understand Hanna's question and it is one that I tried to sincerely answer.

I think we both agree that when we ask God to save someone, we are implicitly accepting the truth that God has the power to save that someone. And, truth be told, we also recognize that the sovereign God has the right to say no to our prayers. That'swhy the Calvinist can pray with confidence.

First, because Jesus death on the cross actually secured salvation for those future believers, some of whom he called sheep before they were ever saved because their salvation was certain. And second, we know that he can save anyone whom he sets his love over.

Non-Calvinists, on the other hand, hold that Jesus' death on the cross did not actually secure salvation for anyone, but only made it possible for anyone who believes to be saved. There is no guarantee that anyone from this day forward will be believe and be saved. That's because God cannot guarantee it. He is subject to the will of the believer.

I understand that non-Cals believe God is sovereign, and has sovereignly granted human beings free will, and will not violate that will lest he make robots of them. For that reason, there is no point in asking God to save someone, when it is a prayer that he is powerless to grant.

Helen, I'm pretty sure you'll see this as a distortion of what you believe. If so, I'd appreciate your help in setting me straight.

If Hanna is reading this,

Hanna, the old robot question is a fair question,but veteran non-Cals use it as a weapon. I for one am grateful that God violated my free will because it was in total rebellion against him. I'm grateful that the Holy Spirit wrought a change in my heart that gave me the freedom to desire him and hate the sin I had loved so much.


Helen, you have a sweet spirit and a gentle manner even in discussions like this. All of us should use you as a role model for civility in debate.

 

[psalms109:31]

The Cross

1 Corinthians 1:
Divisions in the Church
10I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas[That is, Peter]"; still another, "I follow Christ."

13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into[Or in; also in verse 15] the name of Paul? 14I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16(Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."[Isaiah 29:14]

20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."[Jer. 9:24]

 

[Hanna]

I'm grateful that the Holy Spirit wrought a change in my heart that gave me the freedom to desire him and hate the sin I had loved so much.

Tom I too believe that it takes conviction by the Holy Spirit as part of the process of salvation, but I believe the Holy Spirit convicts everyone. Some choose to believe, some don't.

John 16:8 And He [the Holy Spirit], when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment

 

[Hanna]

Psalms I see no quarreling. Then again, maybe I'm deft. I see people reading the same scriptures and believing different things as a result. As for me, I try to understand what God is saying when I read and sometimes it is not real clear so I seek help from others and the best way for me to figure things out is to get as much input from others as possible, especially when it is not black and white at times.

 

[Allan]

In response to one of my posts, Allan said:
The Baptist Non-Cals believe a person can only come to Christ as the Spirit of God calls them and not at any time they choose. Again a blatant falsehood and mischaractorization concerning our beliefs that God is 'powerless' to act... God is all powerful but has of Himself established that salvation comes to those who believe while not yet alive IN Christ.

Tom says:
Allan, let's clear this up for Hanna's sake. It's not my intention to mis-state the Baptist non-Cal position. So help me out here.

Am I correct in my understanding that we are born with free will, the ability to choose?

I personally don't like the term free-will as the conotation goes to that of Peligans who hold that man because his will is free can come to God at anytime the man so wishes and even without God calling. I will state that man has the resposibility to choose what to do with Truth. And this is the Most widely held view with Baptistic Non-Cals

Have I read you right that the free will to choose is not absolute? That it is dependent upon the work of the Holy Spirit to call them first?

Yes, that is correct as one can not choose if there is no choice before them for which they are held accountable to. Now will everyone Hear the name Jesus before they die and so have that choice? Nope! But let me clarify something;
Paul states in Rom 1 - 2 (paraphasing chapters) God has shown to all men there is a God through His creation of His eternal Power and Godhead But (vs 21) they became vian in their imaginations, and their foolish hearts were darkened. (vs 28) and even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind. Chapter 2 STARTS with "You are without excuse, O Man...) and then vs 14- 15 speak of the Gentials who have not the Law (not been reached yet) do by nature those things contained within the Law. They are a Law unto themselves 15 Which show the work of the Law written in their [non-believers] hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts - the means while accusing or else excusing them...
This non-Mosaic Law is basically THE Law for the Non-Jewish person. However it is not to show them how to live righteously before THE God (as The Law) but to show there is a common knowledge of righteousness both in nature and in Man. (Our righteousness is as filthly rags). It is by these that all creation declares there MUST be a God by whon these came into existance. AND IT IS BY THESE 'means' by which God uses to stir the hearts of those NOT yet His to seek Him because His Spirit is working in their hearts to reveal these things - And it is THEN that God sent man comes upon them to reveal the truth to that person(s) to the one who will seek for Him and will be found of Him.]

Would I be correct in concluding that you do not allow for the possibility that the Holy Spirit will withhold His calling from some--that, conversely, the Holy Spirit calls everyone?

I explained this aspect above, but just a slight addition. God calls to ALL men for Chirst is the Light that lighteth ALL men; and the Holy Spirit is come to convict the WORLD of sin, righteousness and judgment to come. Though God has differing means to draw man, there is only one Gospel that salvic and eternal and this gospel God will bring to any who desire Him and it.

But--can you see why I might conclude from your statement about God's omnipotence that it is inconsistent? To this extent: God is all powerful, but man's will is more powerful since it can stop God from achieving his desire that all be saved; therefore God is not all-powerful. See where I'm going with this?

Actually no. Mans will is not more powerful nor is it on the same scale. God decreed that Man Must Believe in order to be saved, and that Man in responsible for what he does with the truth that is brought to him (Ezkl 33:1-20 is a good example of this). This doesn make Man greater than God because man must choose this day whom he will serve, but makes man ever more resposible for his actions and subserviant to both the Will and Nature of God. Will man yeild or be judged?

Let me give you the same for instance in a diffing way: God is all powerful yet God Commands... ALL men everywhere to Repent. Now, is man more powerful than God because not all men will repent and therefore will be judged. Therefore God is not all powerful. See where I'm going with this??
I use this analogy because I know the Calvinsts believe that God commands all men to repent but they also believe that all men wont and therefore sealing themselves in judgment.

So it is not about man being more powerful but that man is responsible for whether or Not he will believe the Truth and Repent.

I realize you don't like it characterized that way. I also know from your comment above that you see it as a distortion of the Non-cal position. But we are dealing with the dividing line that separates Cals and non-Cals--how each views God's sovereignty and man's will.

Not as much as many Calvinsts are taught to believe. It is not a dividing line but a difference of VIEWS. The Non-Cals believe in the Absolute Soveriegnty of God and His absolute Rule (He is able to be in absolute control (soveriegn) even with man having a will of his own) Now the Calvinst views in in the converse that: Man having a will to exercize but that is under that absolute control of a Soveriegn God.

They are mirror opposites.

I think you and I will agree on that last sentence, that God saves all who come in repentance and fath, saves none who don't.

Yes sir, and is one reason I have no real problem with my Calvinstic brothers. And would even let them preach in my Non-Calvinst Church.

 

[AresMan]

How does the Calvinist explain the verse that says:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

To avoid rapid-fire "proof texting," context is king.

The first verse of this epistle is as follows:

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ:

This verse establishes the readership of this epistle and the proper context for the rest of the epistle.

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Savior:
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Herein, a promise is given in the context. This promise is Jesus' second coming.

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Peter prophesies that the earth will be destroyed by God in His judgment of the wicked. However, those to whom this epistle was addressed need not fear. They will not be objects of this wrath.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The promise is the promise of His second coming referenced in v. 4. The Lord is longsuffering to us-ward ("those who have obtained like precious faith"). The Lord will delay His second coming and withhold His wrath until all His elect come to faith. His elect will not face this fiery wrath on earth.

Next verses:

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

The longsuffering of the Lord is salvation for His elect. He is not willing that any should perish, and indeed not one of them shall perish during the wrath of His second coming.

 

[Brother Bob]

Just as much has hurricane katrina was decreed.

Jauthor; You are becoming a Hyper-Calvinist!

Look at the whole picture as if it made sense.
1. Did God create a majority of men and women just to burn them?
2. Did God create the written word for no reason for all was already set?
3. Did God let His Son die for the sin of the world even though the ones saved were already saved?
4. Did God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son that (whosoever) would believe would not perish?
5. All the rest of these scriptures where he purchased all men but they must believe to receive it.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.


Honestly if all people deserve hell then to what purpose was creation? Who would be to blame? Man? God? Who? Hyper-Calvinism and it's Hard Determinism ultimately blames God for a failed creation that only serves to demonstrate His authority? Are we to believe that God chief attribute is vanity?

Look at all the words the Calvinist have to find another meaning for them to prove their theory. If they believe all things were decreed, such as if I got run over with a mack truck, then they believe God decreed "babies" to go to hell.

 

[Tom Butler]

Tom I too believe that it takes conviction by the Holy Spirit as part of the process of salvation, but I believe the Holy Spirit convicts everyone. Some choose to believe, some don't.

John 16:8 And He [the Holy Spirit], when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment

Hanna, now we're into the ages-old argument over whether such words as "world" means everyone without exception. I'll leave it to others to deal with that, except to say that it doesn't always.

I do want to make clear that in a previous post I was not talking about conviction; I was talking about regeneration. Calvinists believe regeneration precedes conviction. We hold that regeneration involves planting a new nature within, and everything else--illumination, conviction, drawing (or calling)--proceeds from there. Non-Cals believe that conviction comes first and that the new nature is planted at the moment of salvation.

Also, if everyone in the world comes under conviction, how do we deal with those who have never heard the gospel? Even if they are, where do they turn for salvation, never having heard of Jesus Christ? This has been debated on other threads. If you'd like to get caught up, look for the one titled "Is faith necessary for salvation?"

 

[Tom Butler]

In post #133 Allan said:

I personally don't like the term free-will as the conotation goes to that of Peligans who hold that man because his will is free can come to God at anytime the man so wishes and even without God calling. I will state that man has the resposibility to choose what to do with Truth. And this is the Most widely held view with Baptistic Non-Cals.

Thanks, Allan for your response to my questions. We are very close to agreement in your comment above. I'm pleased that you have considered the implications of unfettered free will and recognized the problem with that view.

Allan again:
Though God has differing means to draw man, there is only one Gospel that salvic and eternal and this gospel God will bring to any who desire Him and it.

I believe that God draws, but primarily through his word. Please list some other means that God uses to draw. I'm not saying there aren't any, just can't think of anything else.

I agree wholeheartedly that there is only one gospel that saves and is eternal. Yes!

To the extent that if one will follow the light that he has, God will give more light, such as the gospel, I agree with the last part of your comment above. I think the pagan may desire more light beyond creation, but I doubt if he can desire God and the gospel without hearing the gospel first.

 

[Jarthur001]

Just as much has hurricane katrina was decreed.

Jauthor; You are becoming a Hyper-Calvinist!

Hello Bob,

1st...Believing God is in control of the weather, does not make a person hyper-Calvinist. Most free-will people would agree that God brings the rains and winds. If you do not believe it, that is something you must answer to God to.

I'll not address your list of verses. Most have been addressed many times before. Some already on this thread. Look at the post before your last post as a case in point.

But I would like to ask you. If God does not control the weather, who does?

Honestly if all people deserve hell then to what purpose was creation?

Honestly, if all people do not deserve hell, what do all people deserve?

Who would be to blame? Man? God? Who? Hyper-Calvinism and it's Hard Determinism ultimately blames God for a failed creation that only serves to demonstrate His authority? Are we to believe that God chief attribute is vanity?

Mans free will is to blame. Free will is not a good thing, for free will choose sin.

Look at all the words the Calvinist have to find another meaning for them to prove their theory. If they believe all things were decreed, such as if I got run over with a mack truck, then they believe God decreed "babies" to go to hell

Do babies go to hell? Verse please. Our youth pastor and wife just lost their 1st baby. His statement..."I do not understand why Lord, but I know you are in full control".....and stood and preached the very next day.

In our mack truck story.....
If you got ran over by a truck, is it only because you sinned or does this happen to good people too?
If you are hit by a truck, was God surprised or did He know it before hand?
If you die from this truck, could God have stopped the truck?

 

[Brother Bob]

Rom 10:18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

 

[Jarthur001]

I personally don't like the term free-will as the conotation goes to that of Peligans who hold that man because his will is free can come to God at anytime the man so wishes and even without God calling. I will state that man has the resposibility to choose what to do with Truth. And this is the Most widely held view with Baptistic Non-Cals


Yes sir, and is one reason I have no real problem with my Calvinstic brothers. And would even let them preach in my Non-Calvinst Church.

Allan,

I know this was addressed to Tom, but I wanted to say something. I use the word "freewiller"..(I call it a word..but I'm not sure it really is)...for many on the BB post as if they are Pelagians. Pelagianism is such a awful name to call a person, so I tone it down by using freewiller. Or that was my hopes anyway. I thought by using such a name, that those that hold to hyper-free will of man, would see their error. Yet some poster ware the "freewiller" lable with pride.

I just wanted to say, though I have used the word toward you in the past, it is just because I have gotten use to using it. I do not feel it applies to you going by your post. If I slip and use it again, please understand, I am just grouping you as a non-Calvinist and not a real freewiller.


In Christ...James