A Question about Galatians 5:22-23

[Dr. Walter]

What is "rediculous" are the texts you are using to support the idea that lost people produce "fruit" of the Spirit.

Matthew 7:11 has to do with "good gifts" not a good heart whereas God gives good gifts from a good heart. The fruit of the Spirit has to do with heart or character traits not things.

Matthew 5:46 is a contrasting comparison. The kind of love produced by lost people is the kind that gives according to what it gets. The kind of love that originates from the Spirit of God as a "fruit" of the Spirit is the kind that gives regardless of what it gets.

Jesus said the tree is known by its fruit and that one must FIRST make the tree good before the fruit can be good. Spiritual life precedes spiritual fruit just as the living tree precedes fruit. The lost man is not "good" but evil and all they can produce is the works of the flesh. Their best character traits are flawed because they originate from a bad tree, wrong motives - self-glory.

Are you making the ridiculous argument that only born again Christians can exhibit love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control?

Jesus himself said the unregenerate can do good works for those they love.

Matt 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Matt 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

Jesus here showed that unregenerate and sinful man can do good works. They can love and take care of their families.

So, while love, patience and these other qualities are fruits of the Spirit, the unsaved man can and does exhibit these same qualities as confirmed by Jesus himself.

If this is your argument, you are failing terribly. If only a regenerate man can have faith, then only a regenerate man can love, be peaceful, be patient, be kind, be good, be faithful, be gentle, and show self-control as well. But Jesus himself said the unregenerate can give good gifts to their children and love those that love them.

 

[Winman]

What is "rediculous" are the texts you are using to support the idea that lost people produce "fruit" of the Spirit.

I didn't say lost people could produce the fruit of the Spirit, that is a deliberate attempt to smear me. I said the unregenerate lost man can love, be peaceful, be patient, be gentle and many other good qualities. And I showed from scripture that Jesus himself said unregenerate man can do some good works. The publicans were considered the worst of sinners, but Jesus said they could love their families. In fact, that was the whole point of telling his disciples to love their enemies, he said if you only love those who love you, how are you any different from these sinful publicans? So, whether you like it or not the scriptures do not show man as utterly depraved as Calvinism teaches.

The scriptures show Cain could have done good if he chose to do so.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

The scriptures show unregenerate man can believe, but will not.

Luke 22:67 Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:

When the elders, chief priests, and scribes asked Jesus if he were the Christ, he said that if he told them they "will not" believe. He did not say they "could not". This shows they had the ability to believe.

Even Matthew Henry who was a Calvinist understood this verse as not speaking of inability, but of speaking of willful resistance to believe Jesus was the Christ.

(1.) "If I tell you that I am the Christ, and give you ever such convincing proofs of it, you are resolved that you will not believe. Why should the cause be brought on before you who have already prejudged it, and are resolved, right or wrong, to run it down, and to condemn it?’’

They had the ability to believe, they could have believed, but they were resolved not to place faith in Christ.

Your problem is you cannot see except through the filter of your doctrine. Because you have been taught that unregenerate man is utterly depraved and can do no good, you cannot understand many verses that show this doctrine false.

Man is depraved, all men are wicked sinners. But a man can still respond to God's grace and believe his words.

When God called to Adam and Eve after they sinned, they could hear God, and they responded. They had run away, most likely because they feared God would kill them. After all, God had told them in the day they ate of the forbidden fruit they would die. So, it is not hard to imagine when they heard God's voice they hid themselves in fear of him.

But when God called, they responded and came to him. Unregenerate and sinful man can respond to God, it is clearly shown immediately after they sinned, but somehow Calvinism overlooks this. And then in the very next chapter God himself confirms that Cain could do well and be accepted with God if he chose to do so.

So, Calvinism takes man's depravity way too far. Yes, man is very sinful, but man can respond when God calls to him, and man can believe when he is shown the grace and truth of God.