A question about hell

[menageriekeeper]

Thank you for the link Grasshopper. My education in church history is severly lacking.

Perhaps these verses merely describe an act of God that man can do nothing to defend himself from?

 

[Brother Bob]

Luke, chapter 9

"59": And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
"60": Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

Above speaks of both soul that was dead in sin (soul that sinneth shall die) and also the father was naturally dead (his body). As far as the body never burning up God will give the wicked a body in the resurrection that can burn and never burn up as He will give the righteous a spiritual body that can't die. Yes I believe the soul can die, it can die in sin. "let the dead bury the dead". I think you are looking at everything as if God thinks as you do.

 

[Grasshopper]

As far as the body never burning up God will give the wicked a body in the resurrection that can burn and never burn up as He will give the righteous a spiritual body that can't die.

Fine, just give me a scripture that says the lost are given immortality. Paul tells us when the saved receive immortality:

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

When do the lost put on their immortality? If immortality is a gift that comes only from Christ where does that leave the lost man?

I think you are looking at everything as if God thinks as you do.

No,I could make the same accusation towards you, I’m actually trying to determine what God does say in regard to this issue. I was raised believing as you do, but when I began looking at the Tree of Life, questions began to arise.

Notice no one has yet given me an answer as to what the Tree of Life provided, nor have I received a meaning for the words “destroy” and “perish”.

I’m not saying the traditional view is wrong, however it does have problems when one takes an objective look at scriptures dealing with this topic. I think many times people are afraid to challenge traditional thought,they just sweep problem texts under the rug and proclaim victory without dealing with scripture.

 

[Brother Bob]

If it burns and the worm dieth not you should be able to apply that yourself without my help of him having a body that would not burn up but punish for eternity. I don't know any Baptist that does not believe that the wicked will punish for eternity. There may be some I just don't know them. Now if you want to believe the body burns up its ok with me for mostly what I am concerned with is the saving of souls before that time for when that time comes it will be too late. If the worm dieth not even though its in a lake of fire then it had to have I guess you would have to call it Immortality in the sense there would be no end to it. But it is not that way when it goes in the grave just that God has to give the wicked a body that there will be no end to it. I guess I didn't read your orginal OP to answer that question but I see no other answer. As far as the Tree of Life, I believe that to be Christ for to only name given under Heaven that give eternal life is Jesus. Don't know if I answered all or not. Jesus called it "die and never die".
His Blessings,
BBob

[ April 20, 2006, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]

 

[Grasshopper]

If it burns and the worm dieth not you should be able to apply that yourself without my help of him having a body that would not burn up but punish for eternity.

In other words, you cannot provide any scriptural reference for the belief that the soul or the lost man has immortality.

I don't know any Baptist that does not believe that the wicked will punish for eternity.

Annihilation is an eternal punishment. I’m not real concerned with what Baptist do or do not believe, only what scripture teaches.

As far as the Tree of Life, I believe that to be Christ for to only name given under Heaven that give eternal life is Jesus.

So the Tree of Life in Genesis was actually Jesus? Interesting thought. Does that mean the Genesis account is at least partly symbolic and not to be taken literally?

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Mr 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mr 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mr 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Why keep the fire burning if there is no one in it????

"The fire is not quenched" means that there is nothing any man can do about it. It does not imply that it is eternal. It is often used to describe judgments which are temporary in duration, yet un-quenchable while they last.

2Ki 22:17 Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched.

2Ch 34:25 Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be poured out upon this place, and shall not be quenched.

Jer 7:20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.

Jer 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

Hell is cast into the LOF. (Rev 20:14) The LOF is permanent and eternal in an absolute sense. Hell only last until the Great White Throne Judgment.

Lacy

 

[Emily25069]

Wow.. Well I certainly got a lot of interesting answers.

It would certainly be nicer in my eyes if people didnt burn forever. I have some unsaved loved ones who have passed, but unfortunately, I am still thinking that hell is permanent and eternal.

 

[Brother Bob]

quote:
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If it burns and the worm dieth not you should be able to apply that yourself without my help of him having a body that would not burn up but punish for eternity.

In other words, you cannot provide any scriptural reference for the belief that the soul or the lost man has immortality.

Isaiah, chapter 66
23": And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

"24": And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Is that enough?

quote:
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I don't know any Baptist that does not believe that the wicked will punish for eternity.
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Annihilation is an eternal punishment. I’m not real concerned with what Baptist do or do not believe, only what scripture teaches.

So is this eternal punishment.
for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

quote:
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As far as the Tree of Life, I believe that to be Christ for to only name given under Heaven that give eternal life is Jesus.
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So the Tree of Life in Genesis was actually Jesus? Interesting thought. Does that mean the Genesis account is at least partly symbolic and not to be taken literally?

Just take it like the Scriptures put it!! If by no other name and the Tree of Life gives eternal life, figure it out yourself.

Acts, chapter 4

"7": And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this?

"8": Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

"9": If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;

"10": Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

"11": This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

"12": Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

[Grasshopper]

Isaiah, chapter 66
23": And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

"24": And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Is that enough?

No. I’ll ask you again, is there still a fire burning inJerusalem according to Jer.17:

Jer 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

Is it still burning, yes or no?

Lacy provided other scriptures using identical language as well.

So is this eternal punishment.
for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

This is found in a passage in the context of the New Heavens and new Earth, is this what you will be doing in the New heavens and New Earth?

"24": And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

So the Tree of Life in Genesis was actually Jesus? Interesting thought. Does that mean the Genesis account is at least partly symbolic and not to be taken literally?

Just take it like the Scriptures put it!!

I do, you are the one who said the Tree of Life was actually Jesus.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

What is scripture saying in this verse?

Ever come up with a definition of “destroy” and “perish”? Does "destoy" and "perish" mean exist forever to you?

 

[Brother Bob]

Revelation, chapter 2
"7": He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Acts, chapter 4
"12": Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

If by no other name and the Tree of Life gives eternal life, figure it out yourself.

Jer 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

Doesn't say the fire ever started but Jerusalem was taken into captivity and carried away. We waiting for "New Jerusalem".

Destroy and perish definition depends on what context you use them. The body perishes everyday. Destroy, God destroyed several Kingdoms and citys He also was going to destroy. You will have to give me in what context you are using them and then I may be able to give an answer. But I am beginning to believe that you will not be able to understand as of now but at least the seed is sown as another has already posted.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

What is scripture saying in this verse?

Why would you ask such a senseless question when I am sure you know what live for ever means or maybe you don't.

 

[genesis12]

What difference does it make? Eternal separation from God is just that - eternal. His promises, His protection, His Truth, all absent, eternally. The "worm" and the "fire" are figurative language associated with the garbage dump. The worm, the truth of one's "lostness" eats at one 24/7/365, and the torment (fire) burns hotly in the awareness that one can do nothing about it. One thing for sure ~~ in spite of early church and other artwork, there won't be any demons there gleefully administering torture. They'll be eternally separated, eaten away at, and tormented that they bought the lie, as well.

 

[Rippon]

Unfortunately Jack Chick , among others perpetuates the old lie that demons are tormenting the miserable foks in Hell . Some even picture Satan being in charge there . Has anyone heard of that Baxter woman who supposedly had visions of hell ? She was totally devoid of biblical truth . I paged thru that " work " of hers years ago and came away disgusted with her .

 

[Brother Bob]

So you don't believe in Hell, Rippon?

 

[Rippon]

I most certainly do . You have not been paying attention . Look at my thread on The Lake Of Fire . I just don't believe in extra-biblical junk which really is anti-biblical .

 

[Brother Bob]

Would you care to give me an example of the extra-bibical junk? I don't know anything about demons in hell but I do believe there is flames. Do you? I not being smart, just want to know, ok?
I read what you posted but they were someone else's writings and you didn't say whether you accepted or rejected them, or I just don't understand your post one.

 

[Rippon]

I believe that Hell is eternal separation from God . There is everlasting misery for the residents . I believe the imagery of flames is metaphoric . That glimpse that we see presented in Scripture is just that , a glimpse -- it is far worse that we can imagine or think . The reverse is true . Heaven is far more than we can imagine or think . The Bible just gives glimpses of the reality .

I whole-hearedly endorse the beliefs of Spurgeon and Pink . They differ somewhat though . Pink belived in literal flames , Spurgeon believed that they are metaphoric . But again , if reality is far worse than the image -- it must be rather terrible to say the least .

 

[Brother Bob]

Well I hold to Pink's belief that it is literal and the reason is there is so many Scriptures that joins Hell with fire. Thanks,

BBob

 

[Grasshopper]

Revelation, chapter 2
"7": He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Acts, chapter 4
"12": Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

If by no other name and the Tree of Life gives eternal life, figure it out yourself.

Your point is what?? Is it that there was no literal Tree in the Garden it was actually Jesus? Direct answers are really much easier to follow than “figure it out” or “is it enough”.

Jer 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

Doesn't say the fire ever started but Jerusalem was taken into captivity and carried away.

It was fulfilled:

Jer 52:12 Now in the fifth month, in the tenth day of the month, which was the nineteenth year of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, which served the king of Babylon, into Jerusalem,
Jer 52:13 And burned the house of the LORD, and the king's house; and all the houses of Jerusalem, and all the houses of the great men, burned he with fire:

Will you now answer the question? Is the unquenchable fire of Jer.17:27 still burning?

Destroy and perish definition depends on what context you use them. The body perishes everyday. Destroy, God destroyed several Kingdoms and citys He also was going to destroy. You will have to give me in what context you are using them and then I may be able to give an answer.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

But I am beginning to believe that you will not be able to understand as of now but at least the seed is sown as another has already posted.

It is hard to understand when you don’t directly answer questions.

quote:

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

What is scripture saying in this verse?

Why would you ask such a senseless question when I am sure you know what live for ever means or maybe you don't.

Another question you won’t answer, why? What does “live forever” mean in this verse? Very simple question.

 

[Brother Bob]

Your point is what?? Is it that there was no literal Tree in the Garden it was actually Jesus? Direct answers are really much easier to follow than “figure it out” or “is it enough”.

As you can see by the following Scripture that the Tree of Knowledge was not one that came from the ground but was listed separate and in the mist of the garden. Yes, I think the only way to Heaven is through The Son of God and the Tree of Knowledge gave eternal life therefore I accept it as Christ, for He has been many things, Wisdom, Tree, Rock, etc. If there was no other name given under Heaven then what else could it of been?


Genesis 2
"8": And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

"9": And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
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Another question you won’t answer, why? What does “live forever” mean in this verse? Very simple question. Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Jesus said I am the Bread that came down from Heaven that a man may eat thereof and never die, never means never and God felt strong enough about it to cast them out of the Garden. I strongly believe there is only ONE way to get eternal life/live forever and that is Jesus. I am a Jesus man all the way.

 

[Marcia]

Annihilationist arguments have been firmly refuted -- even in books. Of course, there are books out on both sides.

I don't think Luke 16 is a parable. For one thing, Jesus did not say it was nor was it presented that way, as with parables in the Gospels. For another, Jesus named one of the people, which he did not do with parables.

The words translated as "perish" do not mean annihilation, but separation from God. Looking at the context of the Bible, it is clear that there is eternal punishment.

If there is eternal life with God for the saved, then there is eternal separation from God for the unsaved. Sin against an eternal God merits eternal separation.

If annihilation is true, then atheists, materialists, agnostics, Satanists, many Neo-pagans, and others see no problem in rejecting Christ! They believe that after death, that's it! So what's so bad about annihilation? It's not a consequence for them at all.