A question about Messianic Jews.

[HankD]

The vatican is its own country and its just outside rome and it doesn't sit on seven hills. City in this sense in Chapter 17 is the center of world commerse and is a city soley and its not referring to any religious organization. You have to read that into the passage (religious organization).

Hi again Thinkingstuff,

In chapter 18 this Babylon is the habitation of demons and unclean spirits. In addition "sorceries" were committed in/by this city of Babylon, while perhaps not a formal and organized religion (apart from Wicca) is a form of demon worship.

The point is that there is a demonic component of this "city" which from its beginning even as a geographical place in what is now Iran was oppossed to the proper worship of God.

IMO, this is the evil principality which is to be manifested just before the Day of Lord. The geographical location is of secondary consequence as the word chosen is one of imagery: "BABYLON", which in its literal beginning and foundation by Nimrod came from "bab-el" or the Gate to God arrogantly built with human hands (or attempted) and soon confounded by God.

This Babylon, with a literal beginning has a far reaching prophetic significance (in it "religious" component), salvation via the works of mens hands, the doctrine of devils.

Though cultism, heresy and error looks disorganized, beneath the chaotic surface is a well-defined "principality".

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.​

Whose leader is satan and/or antichrist.​

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;​

Soon, it will be fully manifested (though it has been working from the beginning).​

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.​

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.​

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.​

To focus on geography is to miss the more important spiritual points IMO.

True, it may (probably will) have a geographical center, Maybe Rome, maybe Jerusalem, maybe New York City...

HankD

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Hi again Thinkingstuff,

In chapter 18 this Babylon is the habitation of demons and unclean spirits. In addition "sorceries" were committed in/by this city of Babylon, while perhaps not a formal and organized religion (apart from Wicca) is a form of demon worship.

The point is that there is a demonic component of this "city" which from its beginning even as a geographical place in what is now Iran was oppossed to the proper worship of God.

IMO, this is the evil principality which is to be manifested just before the Day of Lord. The geographical location is of secondary consequence as the word chosen is one of imagery: "BABYLON", which in its literal beginning and foundation by Nimrod came from "bab-el" or the Gate to God arrogantly built with human hands (or attempted) and soon confounded by God.

This Babylon, with a literal beginning has a far reaching prophetic significance (in it "religious" component), salvation via the works of mens hands, the doctrine of devils.

Though cultism, heresy and error looks disorganized, beneath the chaotic surface is a well-defined "principality".

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.​

Whose leader is satan and/or antichrist.​

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;​

Soon, it will be fully manifested (though it has been working from the beginning).​

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.​

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.​

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.​

To focus on geography is to miss the more important spiritual points IMO.

True, it may (probably will) have a geographical center, Maybe Rome, maybe Jerusalem, maybe New York City...

HankD

This city referred to in Chapter 17 may have the qualities you assert yet the key point is that its a specific city.

"Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters

Note in prophetic use the term Sea, large water, many waters have a specific meaning which is the world or world system of things. The world, or world system is always in contrast to God because as a person pointed to me once is that if you study the ways of the world you can learn to be great in this world which is contrasted about studying to be great in the kingdom of God. One can't be both because they are diametrically opposed to each other. Great in this world is to be a beast run by your passions. To be great in God's kingdom is to be eternal and actually a rational man. So the prostitute stands on many waters or is founded on the world system which I call secularism. Religions that are contrary to God fall into this system but its no less secular.

5This title was written on her forehead:
MYSTERY
BABYLON THE GREAT
THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

This passage connotes the types of profanities this Prostitute is engaged in (remember based on the world system) sin and abominable acts to include the excessive killing of the saints or those who bare testimony to jesus. However note this next section.

When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. 7Then the angel said to me: "Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides

So the passage says its going to explain this very vision. And we can be comfortable about what it is going to say and explain.

The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

this is a referrance to the world system. Its an indicator that this sytem has already been in place and will come again and take prominance as a sytem of operation. Remember the prostitute rides this beast. It is this system on which the prostitute is built on.

The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.

The waters are explained here as the people, nations and languages of the world all participating in this world system of doing things. Which is signified also as the beast this secularism who's ultimate author is the Devil himself.

For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled

In other words we put this secular or world order to rule over us. And at the center of all this is

18The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."

is the city that was built on this system which is at war with the saints. However, it is a secular city though many religions may participate in its evil the primary issue is that the woman is a city not a specific religion.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I think you are mistaking clear SYMBOLIC language for LITERAL description of a Literal city. Consider its counter part in Revelation 21. How could a LITERAL city have the 12 apostles as its foundation?

Babel was the first attempt by men to assert false RELIGION against the "way of the Lord." Relgious confusion began with Babel and it was institutionalized and organized by Babylonial Mysticism.

Rome was the PRESENT center of this Babylonian institutionalized religion and Ceasar was the eptimony of the "god/man" rebellion against Christ. John was on the island of Patmos for no doubt refusing to offer up a pinch of incense while claiming "Ceaser is Lord."

Rome was the PRESENT center where Babylonian religion reigned over the kings of the earth with Ceasar as the proclaimed "god/man."

Rome would be the future place of MARRIAGE between Babylonian religion and apostate Christianity.

Rome would be the future place where all other prostitute Christian secular state unions would originate (Reformed Roman Catholicism).

This city referred to in Chapter 17 may have the qualities you assert yet the key point is that its a specific city. Note in prophetic use the term Sea, large water, many waters have a specific meaning which is the world or world system of things. The world, or world system is always in contrast to God because as a person pointed to me once is that if you study the ways of the world you can learn to be great in this world which is contrasted about studying to be great in the kingdom of God. One can't be both because they are diametrically opposed to each other. Great in this world is to be a beast run by your passions. To be great in God's kingdom is to be eternal and actually a rational man. So the prostitute stands on many waters or is founded on the world system which I call secularism. Religions that are contrary to God fall into this system but its no less secular.
This passage connotes the types of profanities this Prostitute is engaged in (remember based on the world system) sin and abominable acts to include the excessive killing of the saints or those who bare testimony to jesus. However note this next section.
So the passage says its going to explain this very vision. And we can be comfortable about what it is going to say and explain. this is a referrance to the world system. Its an indicator that this sytem has already been in place and will come again and take prominance as a sytem of operation. Remember the prostitute rides this beast. It is this system on which the prostitute is built on. The waters are explained here as the people, nations and languages of the world all participating in this world system of doing things. Which is signified also as the beast this secularism who's ultimate author is the Devil himself. In other words we put this secular or world order to rule over us. And at the center of all this is is the city that was built on this system which is at war with the saints. However, it is a secular city though many religions may participate in its evil the primary issue is that the woman is a city not a specific religion.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I think you are mistaking clear SYMBOLIC language for LITERAL description of a Literal city. Consider its counter part in Revelation 21. How could a LITERAL city have the 12 apostles as its foundation?

Babel was the first attempt by men to assert false RELIGION against the "way of the Lord." Relgious confusion began with Babel and it was institutionalized and organized by Babylonial Mysticism.

Rome was the PRESENT center of this Babylonian institutionalized religion and Ceasar was the eptimony of the "god/man" rebellion against Christ. John was on the island of Patmos for no doubt refusing to offer up a pinch of incense while claiming "Ceaser is Lord."

Rome was the PRESENT center where Babylonian religion reigned over the kings of the earth with Ceasar as the proclaimed "god/man."

Rome would be the future place of MARRIAGE between Babylonian religion and apostate Christianity.

Rome would be the future place where all other prostitute Christian secular state unions would originate (Reformed Roman Catholicism).

No where in that verse does it talk about a "marriage of Babylonian religion and Christianty." You've made the error of reading too many symbols into it. Its plainly a secular city built upon a world system and views. It is also a financial center. That is all that city is to say it's a neo pagan baalist christian hybrid faith of Cabal born in Luxor is ridiculous.

 

[Dr. Walter]

It is called "mystery babylon" which is a direct religious inference as Babylon was famous for its mystery religions. To argue this is simply a "secular" city is simply ignoring that name. They symbolism of the cup and wine speaks of a religious influence. Fornciation is not literal as no literal city can commit literal fornication. It is talking about a UNION or MARRIAGE between State and relgion - babylonian relgion.

Roman Catholicism will later be centered at Rome. It is a hybrid of Babylonian and Christian religion. Alexander Hislops book "Two Babylon's" which is footenoted to the hilt has never been refuted.

Secular Roman government was superseded by Roman Catholic Government when Rome was destroyed in the fifth century, thus healed of wound, and will be here until ten kings join together with the beast in that final "hour" wherein she will be destroyed and they will fight the King of kings and Lord of lords at the Second advent (Rev. 17:15-17).

This can't be secular Jerualem as it did not reign over the kings at the time John wrote. It can't be secular Rome as she was destroyed in the fifth century but the conqueror of Rome as well as the Roman empire was taken over by Roman Catholicism.

No where in that verse does it talk about a "marriage of Babylonian religion and Christianty." You've made the error of reading too many symbols into it. Its plainly a secular city built upon a world system and views. It is also a financial center. That is all that city is to say it's a neo pagan baalist christian hybrid faith of Cabal born in Luxor is ridiculous.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It is called "mystery babylon" which is a direct religious inference as Babylon was famous for its mystery religions. To argue this is simply a "secular" city is simply ignoring that name. They symbolism of the cup and wine speaks of a religious influence. Fornciation is not literal as no literal city can commit literal fornication. It is talking about a UNION or MARRIAGE between State and relgion - babylonian relgion.

Roman Catholicism will later be centered at Rome. It is a hybrid of Babylonian and Christian religion. Alexander Hislops book "Two Babylon's" which is footenoted to the hilt has never been refuted.

Secular Roman government was superseded by Roman Catholic Government when Rome was destroyed in the fifth century, thus healed of wound, and will be here until ten kings join together with the beast in that final "hour" wherein she will be destroyed and they will fight the King of kings and Lord of lords at the Second advent (Rev. 17:15-17).

This can't be secular Jerualem as it did not reign over the kings at the time John wrote. It can't be secular Rome as she was destroyed in the fifth century but the conqueror of Rome as well as the Roman empire was taken over by Roman Catholicism.

Whether mystery religions or not are practiced in the city the text does not and I repeat does not indicated a Christian/pagan combination. And Mystery Religions or pagan religions are a part of the world order to say secular from saeculorum means the present world which includes religious systems not of God. Any loyalty to secular is prostitution to God. You again are trying very hard to make a case not in the text. And the term just secular means you don't understand the word.

 

[HankD]

Whether mystery religions or not are practiced in the city the text does not and I repeat does not indicated a Christian/pagan combination. And Mystery Religions or pagan religions are a part of the world order to say secular from saeculorum means the present world which includes religious systems not of God. Any loyalty to secular is prostitution to God. You again are trying very hard to make a case not in the text. And the term just secular means you don't understand the word.

But he is not alone in his misunderstanding Thinkingstuff. I agree with much of what he says.

We all understand the word but since Revelation is a book which is "signified" (a book of "signs") we disagree on the details which is quite different than misunderstanding.

For sure, we all know that this world system is no friend to God and vice versa.

I think we are down to quibbling.

Nonetheless, much of the imagery and symbolism of Revelation is derived from the practice and symbols of the helenistic mystery cults which actually originated with Nimrod (founder of Babylon) and Semiramis his mother.

It doesn't hurt to study secular history to understand the symbolism of "MYSTERY BABYLON".

e.g. The golden cup is a symbol of a concoction of psychotropic (hallucinogenic) plants called "kykeon" used as a kind of sacrament by mystery cultists thus the word "pharmakeia" is used of their "sorceries".

Do a google on "kykeon". The major ingredient was probably ergot (a grain fungus), from which LSA and LSD are derived. Today's culture is a becoming a drug culture directly the product of these ancient "sorceries".

Elements of the helenistic "mystery religions" are present with us today in fraternal societies. mormonism and other "secret" societies.

The Eleusinian mystery cults were about 1000 years old at the time of Christ. Paul did battle with them (Diana of the Ephesians) as he went through Asia Minor preaching.

The strategy was absorption and soon enough Christianity became its target.

The cult was supposedly defeated by AD400. Actually it went "underground".

And IMO, soon to be resurrected and its leader fully manifested before the coming of Day of the Lord (who will destroy him, the man of sin, the antichrist).

HankD

 

[RAdam]

The law was a shadow of good things the come, the things Christ was to bring in. This is crucial to understand what the law was and why it was given. There is a spiritual application of every one of the 10 commandments that goes beyond the letter. The Jews wanted to keep the letter, but violated the spirit. Many today want the letter, but not the spirit. Jesus showed us how to read the law in Matthew 5.

The commandments tell us not to commit adultery. Well, I've never physically broken that commandment, thus I've kept the letter. But Jesus said it goes beyond this. He said if we have lusted after a woman in our hearts, we have broken the spirit of it. I'm guilty of this, no matter my efforts to keep it. The commandment of the sabbath is no different. There is a spiritual application there many miss.

The sabbath rest was a picture of something. And first, let's be clear about the sabbath. The Jews weren't only to rest on the sabbath, they were to let the land rest on the sabbath of years, or every 7th year. They weren't to plant crops on the 7th year. Then after 49 years, or the sabbath of sabbath land rest (7 times 7 years), the year of jubilee came. Furthermore, certain days during the year, like the 15th and 21st of Nisan or Abib, were treated as if they were 7th day sabbaths. Are you going to keep all of these things? Nope, instead people will pick what they want, and they only want the 7th day sabbath.

Now, the sabbath rest, whether on the 7th day, a special day of holy convocation, the 7th year, or the year of jubilee, was a picture of something. It was typical of the gospel rest we now have in Christ. This is explained in Hebrews 3 and 4. God rested on the 7th day from a particular labor, that of creation. That was because He was finished. Christ is now seated at the right of God, resting from His labor of redemption, because He finished it. He gave one sacrifice and then sat down. God didn't quit working altogether when He finished creation or redemption, but He did rest from those particular labors. You and I are to rest now in Christ in a sense, that being from the labor of trying to get ourselves to heaven. We are to trust in Him, come to Him, lay our burdens at His feet and take up His yoke which is easy and light, and He will give us something - rest. This is sabbath rest. That doesn't mean we aren't to do things, we still have work to do. We are to labor in His vineyard, keep His commandments, etc. But we are to rest from any labor of trying to save ourselves to heaven and rest in Him.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

But he is not alone in his misunderstanding Thinkingstuff. I agree with much of what he says.

We all understand the word but since Revelation is a book which is "signified" (a book of "signs") we disagree on the details which is quite different than misunderstanding.

For sure, we all know that this world system is no friend to God and vice versa.

I think we are down to quibbling.

Nonetheless, much of the imagery and symbolism of Revelation is derived from the practice and symbols of the helenistic mystery cults which actually originated with Nimrod (founder of Babylon) and Semiramis his mother.

It doesn't hurt to study secular history to understand the symbolism of "MYSTERY BABYLON".

e.g. The golden cup is a symbol of a concoction of psychotropic (hallucinogenic) plants called "kykeon" used as a kind of sacrament by mystery cultists thus the word "pharmakeia" is used of their "sorceries".

Do a google on "kykeon". The major ingredient was probably ergot (a grain fungus), from which LSA and LSD are derived. Today's culture is a becoming a drug culture directly the product of these ancient "sorceries".

Elements of the helenistic "mystery religions" are present with us today in fraternal societies. mormonism and other "secret" societies.

The Eleusinian mystery cults were about 1000 years old at the time of Christ. Paul did battle with them (Diana of the Ephesians) as he went through Asia Minor preaching.

The strategy was absorption and soon enough Christianity became its target.

The cult was supposedly defeated by AD400. Actually it went "underground".

And IMO, soon to be resurrected and its leader fully manifested before the coming of Day of the Lord (who will destroy him, the man of sin, the antichrist).

HankD

I think it is clear that the woman in Rev. 17 is a city. A singular City that enbodies the antithesis of God and Godly ways. I think its a leap to make it some sort of hybrid religion. I am well aware of the mystery religions of Romes day and if you read the ECF they are constantly fighting this very type of thing from entering the Church and its thinking. Right doctrine was very much a consern of the ecf.

 

[HankD]

I think it is clear that the woman in Rev. 17 is a city. A singular City that enbodies the antithesis of God and Godly ways. I think its a leap to make it some sort of hybrid religion. I am well aware of the mystery religions of Romes day and if you read the ECF they are constantly fighting this very type of thing from entering the Church and its thinking. Right doctrine was very much a consern of the ecf.

Yes, I understand your point and agree as far as you have taken it.

However, the beast whom the woman rides is mentioned in several chapters of revelation as the object of worship.

e.g.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.​

While this does not definitively speak of a "religion", worship is the essence of any religion.​

Granted this "city" will probably have a geographical location but the objective of the woman is for all to receive the mark of the beast and worship his image.​

I also agree that the sociological scope of this "city" is all encompassing of economics, politics, culture, etc and not just religion.​

It's modern charter, perhaps to become its foundational document is the Humanist Manifesto http://www.americanhumanist.org/Who_We_Are/About_Humanism/Humanist_Manifesto_II​

which encompasses religion:​

In the best sense, religion may inspire dedication to the highest ethical ideals. The cultivation of moral devotion and creative imagination is an expression of genuine "spiritual" experience and aspiration.​

We believe, however, that traditional dogmatic or authoritarian religions that place revelation, God, ritual, or creed above human needs and experience do a disservice to the human species. Any account of nature should pass the tests of scientific evidence; in our judgment, the dogmas and myths of traditional religions do not do so. Even at this late date in human history, certain elementary facts based upon the critical use of scientific reason have to be restated. We find insufficient evidence for belief in the existence of a supernatural; it is either meaningless or irrelevant to the question of survival and fulfillment of the human race. As nontheists, we begin with humans not God, nature not deity. Nature may indeed be broader and deeper than we now know; any new discoveries, however, will but enlarge our knowledge of the natural.

The woman is spoken of as sitting upon the beast which implies a colaboration. However at the end of Revelation 17 the beast destroys the woman. She has served her purpose and is contemptously discarded.​

This is the satanic mission: the overthrow of God and the worship of the devil no matter the cost.​

Matthew 4
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.​

The harlot (at first), the beast and the false prophet have this common mission objective.​

Personally I see it as satan's city-state with his worship as the only authorized religion (at the cost of beheading) just before the Second Coming (which is not the "rapture" where the children of God are taken out of harm's way of the wrath of man, the wrath of satan and finally the wrath of Almighty God - Revelation 19:15).​

Finally, this "city" (as I have tried to show as an opinion derived from Scripture) has its organic roots from the orginal "Babel", the Babylon of Nimrod, a type of antichrist.​

I am not saying you are wrong Thinkingstuff, just encouraging you to expand your thinking.​

Thank you for the good debate.​

HankD​