A Question Calvinists must Answer REVISITED

[Aaron]

Well, the bible indicates that he hardened himself in some cases and that God did in others. I don't suspect that Pharaoh wanted to let go his nation's free slave labor, but certainly turning the river to blood, as one example, might convince him to change his mind. God didn't want his mind to change UNTIL the passover so that His Glory would be revealed.

And so he won't be judged for his persecution of Israel?

 

[Winman]

 

[Skandelon]

God's.

If I create two robots, one that actually works and the other that doesn't, then any reasonable objective individual without a theological perspective to defend would say that one was better than the other, but if you want to keep telling yourself differently that is fine.

I'm not misrepresenting anything. Your OP presents two men who were both lifted by the Spirit, but one "jumped off."

You did misrepresent our view, by inferred that your position was the only one where "grace was working in him," while ours was only "mythical free will."

Tell me why one doesn't "jump off" while the other does, if it isn't because he was a better man to begin with.

Because one determined to jump off and the other determined to stay on. Why did Adam and Eve sin if they didn't have a sin nature? Why did Satan determine to be like God if he had "no fault found in him" prior to his sin?

 

[Skandelon]

And so he won't be judged for his persecution of Israel?

Are you asking, why Pharaoh won't be judged for his persecution of Israel?

Why wouldn't he be judged for his persecution? He was persecuting them long before Moses came to demand their freedom. He was doing exactly what he had freely decided to do for years. For God to merely hide the obvious truth revealed by the plagues doesn't in any way remove Pharaoh's culpability for his sin.

Consider this illustration regarding Hardening:


Suppose my 3 year old daughter was told that she is not to take cookies from the cookie jar. In another room, out of sight, I see into the kitchen that my daughter is looking at the cookie jar. She looks around the room to see if anyone is watching. As a parent, I can tell what she is thinking...she is about to steal a cookie and she knows she isn't supposed to.

Now, as a parent I could step into the room so that she sees me prior to her committing this sin. Upon seeing me she would forego her evil plot and give up the idea of getting the cookie...at least until the next time she was alone. However, suppose I decide to not step into the room. I remain out of sight to allow her to be tempted and then pouce into action to catch her with her hand in the cookie jar.

Now, by not stepping in at the moment I saw she was being tempted did I cause the temptation? No. I allowed it to continue, but I didn't cause it. I could have ended it my simply showing myself, but I didn't. This is like hardening. By simply hiding the truth (i.e. that I was present and watching) I allowed my daughter to sin. I'm I in any way culpable for that sin? No. I merely allowed it though I could have stopped it.

 

[Amy.G]

God's.

I'm not misrepresenting anything. Your OP presents two men who were both lifted by the Spirit, but one "jumped off."

Tell me why one doesn't "jump off" while the other does, if it isn't because he was a better man to begin with.

Maybe he realized he was a sinner?

Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Andy T.]

No, the gospel itself is the power...it is supernatural...God breathed...inspired..."spirit and life"...the words by which mankind will be judged....the appeal to be reconciled...the power of God unto salvation...sharper than a double edged sword...etc

So, actually my view of the gospel is just the opposite of "diminished" it is MORE powerful. In Calvinism all the power is in the secret inward work of regeneration (irresistible calling), which is never expounded upon in the scripture. In my view the power is right where the scripture say it is...in the gospel!

But again, I don't see how in your system the Gospel message/call invokes any "power" since man's LFW cannot be interfered with (lest it become something less than LFW). Can you help me understand what kind of power you are talking about and how that power operates, in your system?

 

[convicted1]

Right, because just as Moses was the foreshadowing figure for Jesus, so too Pharaoh was the foreshadowing figure for Israel.

Just like Pharaoh was hardened in his already rebellious and unbelieving state to ensure the first passover, so too Israel was hardened in their already rebellious and unbelieving state to ensure the real PASSOVER.

This is one of the best posts I have ever read on this message board!! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbsup:

And a hearty ((((((AMEN))))))

 

[convicted1]

Here is something I posted in the other thread that no one responded to, that I want someone/anyone to address:

Here is something for the DoG Brethern to "chew" on:

Rev. 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Now, in the TULIP, Jezebel would fit the exact mold of a "non-elect", correct? The "I's" that I bolded are referring to Jesus, correct? So Jesus even gave Jezebel a "space" to repent, and she repented not. So how can this be reconciled with TULIP??

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[convicted1]

To use the Jews that lived in the days of Jesus to prove the point of limited atonement(or any of the 5 points) is wrong. Here's why:

Matt. 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

The reason why their eyes were closed and their ears were dull of hearing was for the fulfillment of the scriptures. If they truly knew that Jesus was the Messiah, do you honestly think for one second they would have crucified Him?? By this, the scriptures were fulfilled in Him being numbered with the transgressors, that as Moses lifted up the serpent, so shall the Son of Man be lifted up, etc.

Acts:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have THEY closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Now look at how quick the veil was removed from their unbelieving eyes:

Matt. 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Mark 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Furthermore, they DID NOT KNOW what they were doing!!

Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

These words were uttered from Jesus' lips as He was dying on the cross. I will take His words over anybody's 100% of the time!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[Iconoclast]

Willis,

I am not sure these verses have anything to do with the atonement.

 

[convicted1]

Willis,

I am not sure these verses have anything to do with the atonement.

Oh, but I believe they do Brother!! Jezebel(sp?) would fit the very mold of "non-elect" in the Calvinist model "TULIP". That being said, Jesus gave her a space to repent, and SHE repented not. So, a person that was as wicked as she was, for God to give her a space to repent, then salvation will be offered to all, and not just to the "elect" of the Calvinist model.

Those Jews that Jesus told were of their father, the devil, He died for those, too. They were blinded by God so that Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, would fulfill the prophecies spoken of in the OT. Just go back and read how quick the centurion, and those around him, realized that Jesus was/is the Son of God. They realized this because God removed the veil from their eyes after Jesus was dead.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[Aaron]

Hey, Winman, you left your webcam on! :laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Aaron]

If I create two robots, one that actually works and the other that doesn't, then any reasonable objective individual without a theological perspective to defend would say that one was better than the other, but if you want to keep telling yourself differently that is fine.

So, the man who chooses Christ is less defective than the one who doesn't? Who made the one better than the other?

 

[convicted1]

Here is another passge to chew on:

John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?

37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.

38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

So, in this passage, these Pharisees stated "we see", according to Jesus' word, so their sin remained with them. Why? Because they chose not to believe Him. He told them "if ye were blind, ye should have no sin"....now these are Jesus' words, not mine. I didn't write this. If you have a problem with this, take it up with Him. Jesus told them if they were blind, they would be innocent(me paraphrasing). But now that they see, they are now guilty. In the DoG model of "TULIP", the "non-elect" will not be able to "hear" the Gospel of their salvation, never have God draw them to Himself, that salvation will never be offered to them, etc. And then God will hold them accountable when they die eternally lost???? Jesus sure never advocated this doctrine.


Rom. 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.


Greek for for gainsaying: antilegō G483

Thayer's definition:

1) to speak against, gainsay, contradict

2) to oppose one's self to one, decline to obey him, declare one's self against him, refuse to have anything to do with him

According to Romans 10:21 Jesus said, "All the day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people"

So Jesus is willing to save all, but only will those who put their trust in Him, and not themselves!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[Iconoclast]

Oh, but I believe they do Brother!! Jezebel(sp?) would fit the very mold of "non-elect" in the Calvinist model "TULIP". That being said, Jesus gave her a space to repent, and SHE repented not. So, a person that was as wicked as she was, for God to give her a space to repent, then salvation will be offered to all, and not just to the "elect" of the Calvinist model.

Those Jews that Jesus told were of their father, the devil, He died for those, too. They were blinded by God so that Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, would fulfill the prophecies spoken of in the OT. Just go back and read how quick the centurion, and those around him, realized that Jesus was/is the Son of God. They realized this because God removed the veil from their eyes after Jesus was dead.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

salvation is always offered to all in calvinism. where do you think or get the idea it is not?

 

[convicted1]

salvation is always offered to all in calvinism. where do you think or get the idea it is not?

From http://calvinistcorner.com/tulip

Unconditional Election:

God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).


Limited Atonement:

Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

Irresistible Grace:

When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.

Need to know anything else as to where and why I base my beliefs on what I believe? This is coming from a calvinist website, as you already know.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[Rippon]

Salvation Is Always Offered To All In Calvinism

From http://calvinistcorner.com/tulip

Unconditional Election:
Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

Are you saying that you believe that all are elected to salvation?! Isn't it a very biblical stance to say that some are elected?

And though some are elected, how does that mitigate against salvation offered to all?

Limited Atonement:

Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

Are you prepared to argue against the above? I still don't see how these biblical beliefs go against the fact that Calvinists offer salvation to all.

Irresistible Grace:

When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted.

Right in the above passage it says that "God offers to all people the gospel message." That goes against your thesis that Calvinists don't think the gospel should be given to all.

Need to know anything else as to where and why I base my beliefs on what I believe? This is coming from a Calvinist website, as you already know.

I'm scratching my head in wonderment. You quoted the article and thought somehow it proved your point --when it actually went against your bias.

 

[convicted1]

Are you saying that you believe that all are elected to salvation?! Isn't it a very biblical stance to say that some are elected?

And though some are elected, how does that mitigate against salvation offered to all?

[/B]

Are you prepared to argue against the above? I still don't see how these biblical beliefs go against the fact that Calvinists offer salvation to all.



Right in the above passage it says that "God offers to all people the gospel message." That goes against your thesis that Calvinists don't think the gospel should be given to all.




I'm scratching my head in wonderment. You quoted the article and thought somehow it proved your point --when it actually went against your bias.

Brother,

I was using the above not because I agreed with it, but to show you why in Calvinism, the gospel is presented to them in a "generic" sense, and that God truly never intended on saving them....but in His sick, twisted sense of humor, He "offered" them this "phony-baloney" call to repentence. He then watches His "elect" walk around with their hands in their pockets, whistling along merrily, and then "whammo, presto chango" they are saved!! When He calls, He is wanting to save, and doesn't reneg on it, either. This is how the "external call" comes across to me..."I will call you, but not really call that hard". So in a sense, He wasn't that serious when He called the "non-elect". This is why I believe that in the calvinist model of "TULIP" He doesn't call the "non-elect".

 

[Luke2427]

Brother,

I was using the above not because I agreed with it, but to show you why in Calvinism, the gospel is presented to them in a "generic" sense, and that God truly never intended on saving them....but in His sick, twisted sense of humor, He "offered" them this "phony-baloney" call to repentence. He then watches His "elect" walk around with their hands in their pockets, whistling along merrily, and then "whammo, presto chango" they are saved!! When He calls, He is wanting to save, and doesn't reneg on it, either. This is how the "external call" comes across to me..."I will call you, but not really call that hard". So in a sense, He wasn't that serious when He called the "non-elect". This is why I believe that in the calvinist model of "TULIP" He doesn't call the "non-elect".

I appreciate the bluntness, Willis. I have more respect for that than this, what I consider to be, false humility mess that has "I love you" in every post.

But just know that this is horrifically insulting to all Calvinists and if Calvinists are right, and according to the Bible they are, it is blasphemy.

God bless though and thanks for being plain.

 

[convicted1]

I appreciate the bluntness, Willis. I have more respect for that than this, what I consider to be, false humility mess that has "I love you" in every post.

But just know that this is horrifically insulting to all Calvinists and if Calvinists are right, and according to the Bible they are, it is blasphemy.

God bless though and thanks for being plain.

Bro. Luke,

I do not want this to sound insulting to my DoG Brethern. I just don't agree, just like they don't agree with me, either. I can disagree, and do so in love, and not hate. If I have insulted anyone, I am truly sorry...I just believe that God will call all His creation, equally.