A Question: Eternal Life, Kingdom of God, Saved?

[Faith alone]

Faith Alone yes the Hebrew and Greek langauage had a "phrase" that related to the idea of eternity. As you have correctly pointed out it is a multimple use of the plural aion meaning from the ages to the ages or something along those lines.

However I can find no Scriptural reference to aion ever being used to describe anything that is outside of time or that is never ending. It is always used to describe a period of time. And that period of time can differ. Therefore since the root word means age the adjective can not mean something beyond that.

Jesus came preaching the kingdom. That was His message. So the life that He speaks of was life for this kingdom age. Aionios life is age-lasting life. Or life for the age.

Again if people want to equate the message of the kingdom and everlasting life together they are going to come up with an eternal salvation plan that only lasts a 1,000 years. That's just another of many reasons why these two messages aren't the same thing.

JJ,

See my previous post. I do think that some of the places that the complex form of AIWN was used do refer to eternity. I also am convinced that AIWNIOS is always used in the NT to represent "eternity," but I won't be adament about that. We could always just look up every use of AIWNIOS in the NT (and LXX) to get an idea bout that. I have done that, but I don't remember if all of my notes covered a lot of details regarding the references.

Anyway, I would be interested in what you think when I get a chance to post later. I do agree, BTW that since Jesus came as the Messiah and was presented to the Jews as their Messiah, that it made sense to generally refer to the kingdom age - which I take as literally 1000 yr. But Revelation ties in eternity to the kingdom age, IMO.

Anyway, CYL,

FA

(People have been giving you a hard time about your position due to viewing unfaithful Christians as suffering greatly, haven't they? Some have referred to it as literally going through "hell," but I don't think that is what you mean.)

My friend, whom I mentioned earlier, is a very knowledgeable and godly believer - with a Reformed free grace position. (Yeah, there is such a position.) He is not "out there," though he is pretty firm in his UR position. Unfortunately others have considered him to be a renegade, though he is very cautious about promoting his position (the board actually doesn't allow it - not sure why not), treating him sometimes as if he had jumped off the planet. Too bad. He's a great guy and I have nothing but respect for him. But I can relate to what you have been going through a bit, and I have looked into the age thing because of this.

 

[J. Jump]

Allan the 1000-year period is talked about throughout Scripture. If you would like so more indepth study material on the matter just PM me and I would be happy to forward it along to you.

Again as I said to David if you are wanting a "specific" and "direct" text that says the 1,000 years starts here and ends here then you are going to be left wanting. However by comparing Scripture with Scripture building precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little and there a little it is the only conclusion that works with the whole of Scripture.

That is the amazing thing about Scripture is that when man gets out of the way there is only one way to see the Scriptures and that is how God intended it to be seen.

This is the only theology that fits the whole of God's word. All other doctrines that people preach can be found "supposedly" in the NT, but can not be found in the OT. And all kinds of "excuses" if you will as to why that is have been developed, but that is one of the checks we have is knowing that if you can find the teaching in the NT you have to be able to find it in the OT, because everything regarding the person and work and purpose of Jesus Christ is found in the OT.

Again PM if you want to look into a more detailed Scriptural study of the matter. I've been studying this for two years now so it's not something that can be resolved easily in this type of setting. This is the meat and strong meat of the Word and takes time to work through.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Are you implying that the Pharisees "possessed everlasting life?"

skypair

Well, they were righteous, were they not?

 

[Hope of Glory]

For example, an expression that essentially is translated as "into the age of the age" would and is used to express the idea of eternity, IMO, and also in the opinion of many Greek exegeticists (is that a real word? )? (Don't get me wrong. I agree that AIWN in general means "age," and we should not assume "eternity" in a simple, singular usage. When Jesus spoke of the kingdom age, we should distinguish that from eternity. I am asking about other uses.)

Yes, "from the ages unto the ages" is an idiom that means "forever and ever". (Although some, such as universalists, take it literally, it is a standard idiom.) But the question is, is "age-lasting" an idiom that means "forever"?

The English etymology for "eternal" (posted here several times) shows that it meant "a really long time" up until the 18th century, and even then it meant both for about the next hundred years. Over time, it evolved into meaning "forever", but we never changed our understanding of the root word.

Also, show me another Greek adjective that exceeds the semantic range of the noun from which it's formed? That's one of the rules that I've seen in more than one Greek text in the past. (But, they usually say later, "Well, except for this one word.") In Greek or English, you cannot properly form an adjective that exceeds the range of the noun from which it's formed. English is a living language that is evolving, and some adjectives, such as "green" now can mean "good". But, Greek is a static language. Show me an example where "age-lasting" means forever (clearly).

The Greek has a word that means "eternal" (without beginning or ending; existing outside of time), and it has an expression that means "forever and ever", so why would God be the author of confusion and use a word that means "age-lasing" to mean something else, especially when there is no evidence (besides the English "evidence" that arose in the 18th century) that it's an idiom that means such?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Jews were not saved just because they were Jews.

No one on this thread has said they were, in spite of the fact that you seem to imply they have.

 

[Hope of Glory]

The bulk of your argument is refuted by the scriptures which tell the Jews WERE NOT SAVED because Christ CAME to seek and to SAVE that which was lost.

Let me ask you a question:

How do you lose something you've never had?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Yes, but what is the 'age'. We can divide up many ages in scripture which (many of us) call dispinsations. Or do we state that a thousand years is an age, or just a year.

But, it's important to remember that an "age" is always a limited period of time.
The shortest period that I've ever seen cited as an "age" in ancient literature was seven years, and one society a few hundred years later defined and "age" as 107 years, but it's always limited in duration. So, unless our spiritual salvation is only good for a little while, then "age-lasting" isn't talking about being born from above; that's good forever!

 

[Amy.G]

Originally Posted by Amy.G
Jews were not saved just because they were Jews.

JJump has said many times that ALL Jews were saved.

No one on this thread has said they were, in spite of the fact that you seem to imply they have.

JJump:

So what were these people supposed to believe in? Well God had given them instructions on animal sacrifices that He accepted as substitutions on their behalf as the sacrifices pointed to The Sacrifice that was to come.

So their faith in what God had told them regarding this matter allowed them to receive everlasting life, because these sacrifices were offered continually as God had instructed.

The pharisees would be the best example of the spiritually saved, because they most certainly believed what God had said regarding the sacrifices.

 

[J. Jump]

JJump has said many times that ALL Jews were saved.

But what JJump has NEVER said was that Jews were saved because they were Jews. That's "your" wording. I have NEVER said Jews were saved because of who there were. Come on now Amy.

 

[Amy.G]

But what JJump has NEVER said was that Jews were saved because they were Jews. That's "your" wording. I have NEVER said Jews were saved because of who there were. Come on now Amy.

I'm the one who said they weren't saved because they were Jews, but you have said that ALL Jews were saved.

Not ALL Jews were saved, that is my point.

 

[Faith alone]

OK, gotta agree with Allan here that not all Jews were saved. Jesus came to His own and His own did not receive Him. But those who did receive Him as their Messiah, He gave the right to become children of God, born of God. Paul alsoi always went to the Jews first, and when they rejected His message, then he went to the Gentiles. And Peter spoke to the Jews about their rejection of their Messiah:

Acts 1:21-47 (portions) then whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. "Men of Israel, listen to these words: This Jesus the Nazarene was a man pointed out to you by God with miracles, wonders, and signs that God did among you through Him, just as you yourselves know. Though He was delivered up according to God's determined plan and foreknowledge, you used lawless people to nail Him to a cross and kill Him. God raised Him up...

29 "Brothers, I can confidently speak to you about the patriarch David: he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. ... 33 Therefore, since He has been exalted to the right hand of God and has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit, He has poured out what you both see and hear. ... 36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah!"

37 When they heard this, they were pierced to the heart and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles: "Brothers, what must we do?"

"Repent," Peter said to them, "and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call." And with many other words he testified and strongly urged them, saying, "Be saved from this corrupt generation!"

So those who accepted his message were baptized, and that day about 3,000 people were added to them. ... And every day the Lord added those being saved to them.

People were saved by faith in the OT as well as the NT. The content of the faith was different. If some Jews did not accept Jesus as their Messiah, they will not be in the kingdom... they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Acts 3:17-26 (portions) "And now, brothers, I know that you did it in ignorance, just as your leaders also did. ... Therefore repent and turn back, that your sins may be wiped out so that seasons of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and He may send Jesus, who has been appointed Messiah for you. Heaven must welcome Him until the times of the restoration of all things, which God spoke about by the mouth of His holy prophets from the beginning. Moses said: The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from among your brothers. You must listen to Him in everything He will say to you. 23 And it will be that everyone who will not listen to that Prophet will be completely cut off from the people. ... You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your forefathers, saying to Abraham, And in your seed all the families of the earth will be blessed. God raised up His Servant and sent Him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your evil ways."

We all are sinners, needing to be saved by grace through faith in the Christ. The same was a requirement for the Jews... just as my son is not saved merely because he is raised in a Christian home.

Thx,

FA

 

[Hope of Glory]

Army vehicles are green.

 

[TCGreek]

We all are sinners, needing to be savedby grace through faith in the Christ. The same was a requirement for the Jews... just as my son is not saved merely because he is raised in a Christian home.

Thx,

FA

There's no other way to be saved, whether OT or NT.

 

[Amy.G]

If all the Jews of Jesus time were saved, are the Jews of modern day saved as well? If not, why not?

 

[Amy.G]

Army vehicles are green.

 

[J. Jump]

but you have said that ALL Jews were saved.

Yes I have, but I NEVER said they were saved just because they were Jews. That was a misrepresentation on your part.

Not ALL Jews were saved, that is my point.

Please show me Scriptural evidence that this is a true statement. I can't find any. And no one to date has come up with any evidence that is without refute.

If all the Jews of Jesus time were saved, are the Jews of modern day saved as well? If not, why not?

This is actually a great question. The answer to that is no. God no longer accepts the sacrifices of animals, because The Sacrifice has been given once and for all.

There came a point in time where there was a generation that was no longer able to claim faith in what God said regarding the animal sacrifices, but now had to believe on Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God as The Sacrifice.

Jews have to receive everlasting life the same way Gentiles do and that is through faith in the shed blood and death of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, Who died upon their behalf a sinner. That is the only way they can be made spiritually alive now.

 

[npetreley]

If all the Jews of Jesus time were saved, are the Jews of modern day saved as well? If not, why not?

All Jews of Jesus' time were saved? Welcome to the wild weird wiggy mojo board, formerly known as the Baptist Board. Shirley McClaine will be your new host.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy:

but you have said that ALL Jews were saved.

JJump:

Yes I have, but I NEVER said they were saved just because they were Jews. That was a misrepresentation on your part.

Quote: Amy
Not ALL Jews were saved, that is my point.

JJump:

Please show me Scriptural evidence that this is a true statement. I can't find any. And no one to date has come up with any evidence that is without refute.

There are plenty of scriptures that show not ALL Jews were saved, but here is a few. ( I posted these a couple of pages ago, I guess you missed them.)

Jhn 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am {He,} you will die in your sins."


Jhn 8:43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? {It is} because you cannot hear My word.
Jhn 8:44 "You are of {your} father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own {nature,} for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Jhn 8:45 "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Amy.G]

All Jews of Jesus' time were saved? Welcome to the wild weird wiggy mojo board, formerly known as the Baptist Board. Shirley McClaine will be your new host.

Weird wiggy mojo has become my newest saying. :laugh: Thanks!

(although people think I'm nuts, but what else is new?)

 

[npetreley]

Weird wiggy mojo has become my newest saying. :laugh: Thanks!

(although people think I'm nuts, but what else is new?)

If you're using that expression, you're not nuts, you have good taste.

Actually, to give credit where due, I picked up the expression from Barry the Bear. He's a groovalistic funkmeister extraordinaire in the style of Barry White in the cartoon Angry Beavers, from whence my avatar came (that's Daggett Beaver).