A question for a Calvinist

[stilllearning]

A Calvinist told me once.....
“God is always taking the first step, and is NEVER waiting for us to act.”

i.e. (He forces salvation etc, on us, and never waits for us to make the decision to trust Christ as our Savior.)
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My question has to do with.......
Revelation 3:20
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”

Here, the Lord is waiting, for a response!

 

[RustySword]

IMHO, it is wise to be aware of two tendencies in discussions of Theology:

1. Taking a Biblical doctrine and pressing it to an unbiblical extreme, and

2. Seeking to disprove an opponent's position by pressing it to absurdity.

I am a Calvinist, but I'm not sure I would make a statement similar to what your friend has. I think I understand the spirit in which your friend made that statement, and I can see where he's coming from , but it seems quite clear to me that both God's sovereignty and man's responsibility are clearly presented in Scripture.

Did your friend actually say that "He forces salvation etc, on us," or is that just the way you interpreted what he said?

I know that Rev. 3:20 is often used in Gospel appeals, but my understanding of that verse, in its context, is that Jesus is actually knocking on the door of the church at Laodicea - a spiritually impoverished church - seeking to come in to those who "hear His voice." However, direct appeals to man's will should not be hard to find in the New Testament.

 

[Allan]

IMHO, it is wise to be aware of two tendencies in discussions of Theology:

1. Taking a Biblical doctrine and pressing it to an unbiblical extreme, and

2. Seeking to disprove an opponent's position by pressing it to absurdity.

I am a Calvinist, but I'm not sure I would make a statement similar to what your friend has. I think I understand the spirit in which your friend made that statement, and I can see where he's coming from , but it seems quite clear to me that both God's sovereignty and man's responsibility are clearly presented in Scripture.

Did your friend actually say that "He forces salvation etc, on us," or is that just the way you interpreted what he said?

I know that Rev. 3:20 is often used in Gospel appeals, but my understanding of that verse, in its context, is that Jesus is actually knocking on the door of the church at Laodicea - a spiritually impoverished church - seeking to come in to those who "hear His voice." However, direct appeals to man's will should not be hard to find in the New Testament.

Don't forget, though they are few in number there are those who take the extreme as theological fact. Hyper-Cal is not roaringly popular however there are those few who do hold to it or hold to some HC tendencies without adhearing to the whole gambit.

I don't know which one his friend is but I to was wondering if that is what his friend said (or believes - thus he could say what the his meaning was) or was this his interpretation of what his friend stated?

If the latter I was encourage him to go back to his friend and ask specifically what he meant.

 

[Goldie]

1. Taking a Biblical doctrine and pressing it to an unbiblical extreme, and

2. Seeking to disprove an opponent's position by pressing it to absurdity.

I am a Calvinist,.....

You forgot to mention the third point - taking Scripture totally out of context, which is done by reading half a verse and basing your theology on that alone, instead of reading the entire verse or chapter and obtaining the correct meaning.

My question has to do with.......
Revelation 3:20
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”

Here, the Lord is waiting, for a response!

My thoughts exactly. If God forces everything upon us, including salvation, then how come He is standing at the door, knocking, and waiting for a response from us?

 

[Allan]

--------------------------------------------------
My question has to do with.......
Revelation 3:20
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”

Here, the Lord is waiting, for a response!

I forgot to answer this part.

In context it is speaking to this particular church in which Christ was now on the outside knocking and asking for those who would to allow him back in. However, the spiritual principle is often times used by many in witnessing to the lost or as an illistration to them.


With scripture even the Calvinist agree that no man is saved unless he believes or what is refered to as man's responsiblity. Even though it is God alone that saves man, it is man who must believe or else there is no salvation.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Allan,

It seems to me your addressing or expressing your concern with hyper-calvinsim. I think Phil Johnson's article on it is good. http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/hypercal.htm

 

[Rippon]

Allan,

It seems to me your addressing or expressing your concern with hyper-calvinsim. I think Phil Johnson's article on it is good. http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/hypercal.htm

This has been made into several threads started by Allan. PJ is a wonderful guy;but he falls short in describing Hyper-Calvinism.The confines of H-C are a bit more restrictive than his sweeping generalities.As he has made some mistakes in generalizing Fundamentalists, (for which he later made amends) he has erred in classifying many mainstream Calvinists as Hyper.There are better sources out there.Start with the Gospel Standard Confession/Creed.Most of that document is solidly biblical,but their additions are scripturally deficient.

 

[stilllearning]

Hi RustySword

Nice to hear from you.

You said......

“I am a Calvinist, but I'm not sure I would make a statement similar to what your friend has. I think I understand the spirit in which your friend made that statement, and I can see where he's coming from , but it seems quite clear to me that both God's sovereignty and man's responsibility are clearly presented in Scripture.”

How many point Calvinist, are you?

It doesn’t sound like, you accept “Irresistible Grace”.

Neither do I.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

This has been made into several threads started by Allan. PJ is a wonderful guy;but he falls short in describing Hyper-Calvinism.The confines of H-C are a bit more restrictive than his sweeping generalities.As he has made some mistakes in generalizing Fundamentalists, (for which he later made amends) he has erred in classifying many mainstream Calvinists as Hyper.There are better sources out there.Start with the Gospel Standard Confession/Creed.Most of that document is solidly biblical,but their additions are scripturally deficient.

Are you saying that this definition is insufficient somehow:

1. [Hyper-Calvinism] is a system of theology framed to exalt the honour and glory of God and does so by acutely minimizing the moral and spiritual responsibility of sinners . . . It emphasizes irresistible grace to such an extent that there appears to be no real need to evangelize; furthermore, Christ may be offered only to the elect. . . .
2. It is that school of supralapsarian 'five-point' Calvinism [n.b.—a school of supralapsarianism, not supralapsarianism in general] which so stresses the sovereignty of God by over-emphasizing the secret over the revealed will of God and eternity over time, that it minimizes the responsibility of sinners, notably with respect to the denial of the use of the word "offer" in relation to the preaching of the gospel; thus it undermines the universal duty of sinners to believe savingly in the Lord Jesus with the assurance that Christ actually died for them; and it encourages introspection in the search to know whether or not one is elect. [Peter Toon, "Hyper-Calvinism," New Dictionary of Theology (Leicester: IVP, 1988), 324.]

And if so, where can I read an alternate definition?

 

[Reformed Trinitarian]

Actually, the Lord is "standing" and "knocking."

A Calvinist told me once.....
“God is always taking the first step, and is NEVER waiting for us to act.”

i.e. (He forces salvation etc, on us, and never waits for us to make the decision to trust Christ as our Savior.)
--------------------------------------------------
My question has to do with.......
Revelation 3:20
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”

Here, the Lord is waiting, for a response!

 

[Reformer]

A Calvinist told me once.....
“God is always taking the first step, and is NEVER waiting for us to act.”

This is a true statement concerning salvation
Romans 3:11
There is none who understands;
There is NONE who SEEKS after God.

Think about it if we aren't seeking, then He isn't waiting.. Right?

i.e. (He forces salvation etc, on us, and never waits for us to make the decision to trust Christ as our Savior.)

This statement is false, most people can't understand this simply because they don't want to

as for you question

My question has to do with.......
Revelation 3:20
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”

He is knocking on the door of a church, this has nothing to do with salvation at all, Nothing

one commentary says ... The context demands that Christ was seeking to enter this church that bore His name but lacked a single true believer. This poignant letter was his knocking. If one member would recognize his spiritual bankruptcy and respond in saving faith, He would enter the church...


Reformer

 

[Allan]

This has been made into several threads started by Allan.

Actually it was made into ONE thread by me and not several

 

[Allan]

He is knocking on the door of a church, this has nothing to do with salvation at all, Nothing

one commentary says ... The context demands that Christ was seeking to enter this church that bore His name but lacked a single true believer. This poignant letter was his knocking. If one member would recognize his spiritual bankruptcy and respond in saving faith, He would enter the church...


Reformer

If 'knocking' has nothing to do with salvaiton then quote a commentator who states "The context demands that Christ was seeking to enter this church that bore His name but lacked a single true believer. ".

If it isn't about salvation and this assembly of non-believers calling themselves the/a church and Christ is standing at the door knocking to be 'let in', then please advise what it means.

If they aren't saved, and Christ is coming to them standing at the door knocking to be let in, and gives a call to anyone who will open up that He will then come in and become intimate with him (something that is not yet happened toward these individuals) - exactly how is this not about salvation or at the very least an allusion toward it?

It is a call to all those who call themselves a church (which is was a true church before but apparently spiralled into spiritual bankruptcy - majority if not all who now made it up were unsaved. Christ was outside the church and calling to be allowed to come in - not back in. A call for intimacy between Him and anyone who would open/answer the door/call.

I believe it is exactly about salvation and more importantly the dangers of assuming that just because you are apart of a church group makes one saved.

More can be given here as well like sound doctrinal teaching wasn't continued so Christ has to personally address the whole church in general as though it was unsaved and needed to come to Him that they might actaully become a true Church of Him. ect...

 

[Revmitchell]

One who has the Holy Ghost living in them would not need for Christ to "knock' and wait outside the door to come in.

 

[Reformer]

Christ has to personally address the whole church in general as though it was unsaved and needed to come to Him that they might actaully become a true Church of Him. ect...

that was my point, salvation is personal, here He was addressing a WHOLE church, so to apply this to a single persons salvation it a distortion of what it says

 

[Allan]

that was my point, salvation is personal, here He was addressing a WHOLE church, so to apply this to a single persons salvation it a distortion of what it says

No, a distortion would be to ignore the fact that Jesus states "..if anyone (any man) hears.." singular, and not "..if you.." plural.

The salvation message to each person is in the message to the whole church.

 

[RustySword]

Hi RustySword

Nice to hear from you.

You said......


How many point Calvinist, are you?

It doesn’t sound like, you accept “Irresistible Grace”.

Neither do I.

I used to consider myself a "4-pointer," but I have had to stop using the "points" thing recently. In discussions on other websites I have noticed that the individual points are interpreted in different ways. "Total Depravity" means something totally different to a Calvinist than it does to an Arminian or and Open Theist (just based on comments I have read on forums). Irresistable Grace is another one that is subject to different definitions.

 

[jcjordan]

No, a distortion would be to ignore the fact that Jesus states "..if anyone (any man) hears.." singular, and not "..if you.." plural.

The salvation message to each person is in the message to the whole church.

So, if this verse is teaching what you're claiming it teaches, then Jesus is beggar. He's done all He can do, now He's just begging men to cooperate with Him. If that is so, then, why did you answer His knocking and why haven't others? Was He knocking louder for you and did it just get on your nerves so you finally had to answer in order to stop than incessant banging? Maybe you were just smarter than the other idiots, and you knew you better open that door. Maybe you weren't as wicked as the other people and you felt sorry for poor Jesus out there on the porch.

 

[Pastor Larry]

A Calvinist told me once.....
“God is always taking the first step, and is NEVER waiting for us to act.”

i.e. (He forces salvation etc, on us, and never waits for us to make the decision to trust Christ as our Savior.)

Is the "i.e." part your comments or his? I agree with the first, not the second. BTW, most arminians agree with the first.

 

[Reformer]

So, if this verse is teaching what you're claiming it teaches, then Jesus is beggar. He's done all He can do, now He's just begging men to cooperate with Him. If that is so, then, why did you answer His knocking and why haven't others? Was He knocking louder for you and did it just get on your nerves so you finally had to answer in order to stop than incessant banging? Maybe you were just smarter than the other idiots, and you knew you better open that door. Maybe you weren't as wicked as the other people and you felt sorry for poor Jesus out there on the porch.

AMEN BROTHER :thumbs:

some people can't figgure out Rom 3:11 "There is none who seeks after God."