A question for a Calvinist

[Pastor Larry]

It should be noted that though the Reformers said man was 'Total' they contradict themselves in assuming that man can do common good things.
That IF man were TOTALLY depraved then man would not ever do one thing that was not absolutely evil. He couldn't even do common good but the reformers do not deny this.

People often object when I say that some of you don't understand Calvinism, but you guys continually illustrate this as Allan does here. This, Allan, is a fundamental misunderstanding of total depravity.

TD does not say that man is as bad as he could be, that all men are equally bad, or that man can do no civic good. The word "total" means that his depravity applies to every area of his being ... mind, will, and emotions. This is historically what has been meant by "total depravity." So totally depraved people can do civic good.

Also, I haven't read all this, but you sound at times like a Pelagian or semi-Pelagian, and at times like an Arminian. Arminians believe in total depravity that is universally answered by prevenient grace. Pelagians deny total depravity and thus say that prevenient grace is not needed. Calvinists believe in total depravity that is answered for the elect by special grace (not prevenient).

 

[Allan]

Here is Ryrie from his "Basic Theology" on TD:

III. TOTAL DEPRAVITY

The scriptural evidence provides the basis for what has been commonly called total depravity. The English word “depravity” means perverted or crooked. It is not used in the translation of the King James Version, but some modern translations do use it to translate adokimos in Romans 1:28. This word means “not standing the test,” and gives us a clue as to how to define the concept of depravity. Depravity means that man fails the test of pleasing God. He denotes his unmeritoriousness in God’s sight. This failure is total in that (a) it affects all aspects of man’s being, and (b) it affects all people.

Negatively, the concept of total depravity does not mean (a) that every person has exhibited his depravity as thoroughly as he or she could; (b) that sinners do not have a conscience or a “native induction” concerning God; (c) that sinners will indulge in every form of sin; or (d) that depraved people do not perform actions that are good in the sight of others and even in the sight of God.

Positively, total depravity means (a) that corruption extends to every facet of man’s nature and faculties; and (b) that there is nothing in anyone that can commend him to a righteous God.

Total depravity must always be measured against God’s holiness. Relative goodness exists in people. They can do good works which are appreciated by others. But nothing that anyone can do will gain salvational merit or favor in the sight of a holy God.

Or "Moody Handbook of Theology on Original Sin and Total Depravity:

Original Sin

Definition. Original sin may be defined as “the sinful state and condition in which men are born.” It is so designated because: (1) “it is derived from the original root of the human race (Adam), (2) it is present in the life of every individual from the time of his birth, and (3) it is the inward root of all the actual sins that defile the life of man.”23-35 Simply stated it refers to “the corruption of our whole nature.”

Results. First, man is totally depraved. “Total depravity does not mean that everyone is as thoroughly depraved in his actions as he could possibly be, nor that everyone will indulge in every form of sin, nor that a person cannot appreciate and even do acts of goodness; but it does mean that the corruption of sin extends to all men and to all parts of all men so that there is nothing within the natural man that can give him merit in God’s sight.”

Second, man has an innate sin nature. “The sin nature is the capacity to do all those things (good or bad) that can in no way commend us to God.” Every part of man is affected: intellect (2 Cor. 4:4); conscience (1 Tim. 4:2); will (Rom. 1:28); heart (Eph. 4:18); and the total being (Rom. 1:18–3:20).

So Far I am still in consistant agreement with them all.

 

[Allan]

People often object when I say that some of you don't understand Calvinism, but you guys continually illustrate this as Allan does here. This, Allan, is a fundamental misunderstanding of total depravity.

Actaully no it isn't. I was having a little fun with a play both on the word (Total) that I was accused of not understaning and the doctrine quoted/spoke of/refered back to most often to some work of some Reformer or Reformed Creed/Confession

Since I was told that 'total' means 'total' I had some fun.

I know quite well what Calvinist believe and that their view of 'Total' as in Total Depravity is summed up in J.I. Packers "Concise Theology"

The phrase total depravity is commonly used to make explicit the implications of original sin. It signifies a corruption of our moral and spiritual nature that is total not in degree (for no one is as bad as he or she might be) but in extent. It declares that no part of us is untouched by sin, and therefore no action of ours is as good as it should be, and consequently nothing in us or about us ever appears meritorious in God’s eyes. We cannot earn God’s favor, no matter what we do; unless grace saves us, we are lost.

Total depravity entails total inability, that is, the state of not having it in oneself to respond to God and his Word in a sincere and wholehearted way (John 6:44; Rom. 8:7-8). Paul calls this unresponsiveness of the fallen heart a state of death (Eph. 2:1, 5; Col. 2:13), and the Westminster Confession says: “Man by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto” (IX. 3).

See .

TD does not say that man is as bad as he could be, that all men are equally bad, or that man can do no civic good. The word "total" means that his depravity applies to every area of his being ... mind, will, and emotions. This is historically what has been meant by "total depravity." So totally depraved people can do civic good.

We all know this, and James and I have been down this road enough that He knows I was being purposefully silly which is why I 'assume' he didn't comment on it.

If you took personal offence, my appologies.

Also, I haven't read all this, but you sound at times like a Pelagian or semi-Pelagian, and at times like an Arminian.

Then I would suggest you actaully read because in no place do I ever sound like a Pelagian (a person can know and come to God without any assistance or divine aide) or Semi-Pel (that a man can know and come toward God without any assistance or divine aide BUT he realizes in coming toward God that he can not save himself and so God rewards his efforts with grace that he might be saved) - though Arminian I might be able to understand at least.

 

[Reformer]

Hi Reformer

You asked.........


Here is what the Lord said.......

AHHHHH, but that was not all He said in John, He also said

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

John 6:65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

John 10:14-15 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

John 13:18 "I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.'

John 15:19 "If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

John 17:9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.

John 17:19 "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

 

[Jarthur001]

Ok, now I can actually read this thing

Sorry, I was having a great deal of trouble at work with the computer and how it was rendering these posts in edit form and being able to see other posts. I should have waited on replying. My fault, sorry.

Yes, I see they are not reformers, when I was trying to figure out what it said through much of the garble - I only saw in passing reformers said .. about depravity.. . That is why I didn't comment on each individually. However in seeing them, they do not differ from anything I have said so far.


And they correlate to what I have been saying. Look:
Your first quote:

A posts of mine earlier:

Your second quote:

Again, see my above comments and all of my posts ever regarding the subject.


Your third quote:
\Again look back at what I have been consistantly saying.


I have NO IDEA where you are trying to go with this.
I do not deny original sin nor justification by faith. As a matter of fact it is 'justification by faith' that is one of the key principles that biblically refutes regeneration preceding faith.


No, I just proved I am consistant with it.

Allan,

The problem is...You make statements like you just quoted, then sometimes in the very same post you make statements like this...""People do have the ability to believe or reject". Its hard to tell what you really believe on this.

On post 113 of this thread you said...."They are capable of believing"....when asked this.."what is an unregenerate lost person capable of doing" Thats not TD Allan.

In the same post (113) you said..."The only way man will come is if God reveals truth to him (has heard), and believes it (hath learned from the Father). One can only learn what one is willing to receive. Thus only those who are drawn and believe come to Christ." See where you said.."Willing to receive" Williing to receive....is mans will. That's not TD Allan.

 

[Rippon]

Man is totally corrupt in that man nothing man learns, knows, or imagines, of his own, can produce any good thing or spiritual knowledge. However, what you FAIL to grasp is the intervention of God which brings man to something he never could have obtained himself in any manner.

Rip: No,you still don't get it.The natural man cannot grasp God.The NM has no ability to turn under his native powers to God.He has total inability to do so.The unregenerate ( think 1 Cor.2:14 here) can't obey God's commands.Do you think that every single unregenerate person has God "intervening" in his/her life?I'm not taliking about Romans 1&2.I'm speaking of the Lord intervening savingly.Of course the Lord doesn't interceed for everyone.So the natural person has absolutely no ability to obey the Lord;yet is fully responsible to the Lord nevertheless.
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Your ignorance regarding pelagianism aside...

Rip: Perhaps I can receive of your wisdom...No, I thought better of that notion.You affirm the first principle of Pelagianism in your philosophy/theology.You haven't convinced Calvinists here to the contrary.
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And biblically your (sic)wrong. People do have the ability to believe or reject when God intervenes and 'that' is why they are fully held responsible.

Rip : Back to what I was saying earlier.All people are totally depraved -- it's all-pervasive in their beings.All do not have the ability to turn to God and obey His commands.Only when God really intervenes is the drawing that John 6 elaborates upon.God does not intervene in the life of every single person.Yet each and every individual is fully accountable to God.

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"Again, if you take away from responsibility ability you take away the force of the word and make it meaningless. Look it up. You actually are not even talking about 'responsibility anymore when you do this but some made up version of it. " Facts are facts.

Rip : Your idea of "facts" in this case are in reality fiction.You're back to square #1 with your Pelagian concepts.

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Perdition does not mean they could not believe, it relates to the fact they 'would not' NOT that they 'can not'.

Rip : Perdition is everlasting damnation.You are mixing things up a lot.
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Again, you have great trouble speaking truth(sic).

Rip : No,not all.But it doesn't come naturally.

 

[Goldie]

TD does not say that man is as bad as he could be, that all men are equally bad, or that man can do no civic good. The word "total" means that his depravity applies to every area of his being ... mind, will, and emotions. This is historically what has been meant by "total depravity." So totally depraved people can do civic good.

With this you are denying man's responsibility. You are saying man has no responsibility. This is not true. Man is responsible for his actions, whether you like it or not.

 

[MB]

With this you are denying man's responsibility. You are saying man has no responsibility. This is not true. Man is responsible for his actions, whether you like it or not.

You are absolutely right Goldie; Total depravity isn't backed up in scripture at all. However man still does not come to God on his own. He is drawn by God and just because a man is drawn doesn't mean he has been given to God yet. Sheep are already God's. We are not born sheep. We become sheep when we follow Christ.
MB

 

[Pastor Larry]

With this you are denying man's responsibility. You are saying man has no responsibility. This is not true. Man is responsible for his actions, whether you like it or not.

I am not denying man's responsibility in the least. I fully and unequivocally affirm man's full responsibility to live in obedience to God in every single area of life. I like the fact that man is responsible for his actions. And you are responsible for not understanding what I am saying, so please take responsibility and fix it.