Jarthur001
Active Member
Indeed you are right my friend.pinoybaptist said:
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A question for calvinists
- Thread starter Rubato 1
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psalms109:31
Active Member
damnation
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
God never has to change His mind with us we are on one or another path
Belief or unbelief.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
God never has to change His mind with us we are on one or another path
Belief or unbelief.
Jarthur001
Active Member
nunatak said:
Well...men are damned in two ways. One is for the very sins we express. This all agree with, but this is also what pinoybaptist is not talking about.
We are also guitly because we are a fallen race. Our father Adam..(the 1st Adam)..caused all of mankind to damned as a whole.
Romans 5 tells us..
Noticed "passed upon ALL men". Now when do we "get" this past to us?
Psalm 51 5 tells us...
Now there are those on this board that will deny this Bible truth. To them works is what matters more then anything. They would want you to believe that this passage is talking about Davids mother sinning when David was conceive. However if one only looks at the context, one will also know this to be a wrong view. Please notice how the passage addresses David's guilt and is in no way blaming his mother for his sin...
Other verses....
Now being that I have been through this a few times, the next thing that is always brought up is that I believe babies that die go to hell. Let me say right now I do not believe that. But notice if you will, that even if this would be the case, this is poor logic to not believe the Bible.
The fact is no one can say for sure what happens to babies that die early. But if they are saved before they can believe, as some believe, this view would only prove the power of election in God.
In other words...God saves them, by His CHOICE not their own.
Of course this is the view that Calvinist hold to all of mankind, not just babies. God is the author of salvation, and it is God that chooses not man. All that the elect of God does is believe in the truth of salvation found only in Christ.
Back to damnation....
Notice in the gospel of John chapter 3..
Notice that in verse 18 men are condemned before they reject God. Notice also that the reasons they do not believe is that they love SIN more then the light or better then Christ...the truth. This love for sin comes from the fall of man in Adam and past on to all mankind. All men are like this. This is called the sin nature. So how do people get saved?
Well...back up in this same passage it tells us...
We must 1st be born again.
Notice verse 5 says....to get into the Kingdom, one must be born again. The kingdom is not heaven. The kingdom is...
Notice forever includes the time that has past between when Christ prayed this prayer and now. In other words, the kingdom has come and you are part of the kingdom, if you are a believer.
Back to John 3..
Notice....Born of the Spirit comes 1st.....
And how is this done?
Verse 8 tells us...
The Spirit gives new birth..the light that leads to salvation....just as the wind blows. In other words...to whom ever He wishes.
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nunatak said:
There are two types of people on this earth, nunatak.
Those that have a Savior (whether they believe that their Savior chose them in eternity past for His kingdom, or they chose the Savior to be their Savior), and those that do not have a Savior.
In both of these camps, there are the religious, and the irreligious.
The religious among those who do have a Savior may sometimes think that they are heaven-bound because they have the Word of God as their sure foundation, or because they repented of their sins, or because they did something which they sincerely believe the Bible requires of them which made them qualified to be saved in the eternal sense.
The religious among those who do not have a Savior also think the same things as those who do have a Savior, but the fact is they do not have a Savior, and Jesus bears this out Himself when He says that they will remind Him to His face that they did many miracles on His behalf, and He in turn will attest to them: "I never knew you".
The irreligious among those who do have a Savior may feel that they have no Savior, no chance of getting to heaven, and so throw caution to the wind. They look around them and see the pettiness of many churches, the squabblings and the hypocrisies and the falls of "popular" preachers and decide that all is hypocrisy, and so they don't want any part of it and are drawn to the more "practical" side of reality, things they can touch and hear and see and prove to themselves.
The irreligious among those who do not have a Savior are simply that: they have no religion whatsover, no profession whatsoever, live for today, tomorrow is for tomorrow, aims for material things, and so on.
Either way, in both camps, there is a very distinct difference.
One was in Adam, and had his life hid IN Christ according to the will of God, and his sin atoned for by the blood of Glory's lamb, and the other is and will always be in Adam - unregenerate, damned, and answerable to God for His sins.
Incomplete, and so many aspects to cover, and I have perhaps used wrong words or phrases, but here is what I can cover at this point and you figure out the correct words and phrases.
What do you mean that "born of the Spirit comes 1st"?
"Born of water" comes 1st, then "born of the Spirit".
I believe "born of water" refers to the washing away of sins, which happens when we believe and repent (turn toward God), then we are given the Spirit and this completes the new birth.
Amy.G said:
Actually, neither comes first if you look at the sentence structure. It could have been structured as "born of the Spirit and water". I think water is symbolic here, not actual physical water, because if it were the actual physical waters of baptism, then baptismal regeneration is correct, and the Roman Catholics are correct, and we Baptists are wrong.
In a sense you are correct, you know, that "born of water" refers to the washing away of sin, as stated in Titus 3:5, because that is when grace was applied to our hearts, concurrent with the act of the New Birth.
My favorite Calvinist, John Gill, states that from his study of this Scripture using other references, "water" is symbolic of God's grace, as it is understood in Ezekiel 36:25 and in John 4:14, and the Spirit refers to the act of regeneration, which sometimes is also ascribed to the Father as in 1 Peter 1:3 and in James 1:18, and in 1 John 2:29, the act of regeneration is ascribed to the Son.
So in essence the Lord is telling Nicodemus, that unless one has found grace in the eyes of God and born from above, one cannot enter into the kingdom of God, and proceeds to enforce this further with his next statement: "That which is born of the flesh, is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit".
Matthew Henry seems to agree with Mr. Gill, in so many words, in his commentaries.
Mr. Wesley, on the other hand seems to think, that water is the water of baptism, but only after a change wrought by the Spirit. That is, first there must be a regenerated person, and then that person testifies to the grace of God in his life thru the waters of baptism.
(strangely, Mr. Wesley seems to be describing a very Baptist principle).
psalms109:31
Active Member
Trust
You do not have to born again to believe, you have to be born again to see heaven.
You must go past everything that you once learned and trust in Jesus.
God borns us of the Spirit we wait on Him and trust in Jesus and believe in Jesus.
It is God's work to change us and it begins with trust, no matter what you believe, be a child knowing nothing and learn from Jesus.
We didn't come to God, God has come to us, it is your next step.
You do not have to born again to believe, you have to be born again to see heaven.
You must go past everything that you once learned and trust in Jesus.
God borns us of the Spirit we wait on Him and trust in Jesus and believe in Jesus.
It is God's work to change us and it begins with trust, no matter what you believe, be a child knowing nothing and learn from Jesus.
We didn't come to God, God has come to us, it is your next step.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Amy.G said:
You are also right that I stated this wrong.
I should have said the new birth comes before coming into Gods Kingdom/salvation.
As to being born of water....
This also could be an hendiady. Many would teach this view. I have to agree with you in that it is not.
Some have said this is talking about being born the 1st time. One must be born in nature, before the new birth can happen. They see the " water breaks.” in the physically is seen here. I disagree because this would be a worthless statement for all are born this way.
Some say this is Baptism. Again...wrong view for water baptism has no part of salvation.
I would agree with others that this is talking about Ezekiel 36.
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
John MacArthur agrees as well...
.
However..if its an hendiady or not, what matters most is that the birth comes before and is a requirement in order for one to believe.
Jarthur001
Active Member
If you wish to disagree with the clear text of the Bible that is up to you. I will stick to the Bible.psalms109:31 said:
psalms109:31
Active Member
Born again after belief
I'll go with the scriptures to.
John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Acts 19
Paul in Ephesus
1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[Or after] you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.
4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into[Or in] the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[Or other languages] and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.
I'll go with the scriptures to.
John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Acts 19
Paul in Ephesus
1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[Or after] you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.
4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into[Or in] the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[Or other languages] and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.
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I don't believe "Of the water and the Spirit" is a clear example of a hendiadys, Expressing a single idea by two nouns instead of a noun and its qualifier, but an echo of Ezek 36:24-27.
For all Greek lovers, here's why:
1. This is what we have in the Greek ἐξ ὕδατος καὶ πνεύματος, "Of water and Spirit/or the Spirit."
Because of the one preposition ἐξ, "of" that's why some think it is such.
2. But a definite noun like God, Christ and Spirit do not need a preposition.
For all Greek lovers, here's why:
1. This is what we have in the Greek ἐξ ὕδατος καὶ πνεύματος, "Of water and Spirit/or the Spirit."
Because of the one preposition ἐξ, "of" that's why some think it is such.
2. But a definite noun like God, Christ and Spirit do not need a preposition.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Dead Man
How can a dead man hear you might ask without the Holy Spirit or the Father drawing them.
Simple, through the words of Jesus.
John 14:24
He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are Spirit and they are life.
Romans 10:8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[Deut. 30:14] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[Isaiah 28:16] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[Joel 2:32]
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"[Isaiah 52:7]
16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"[Isaiah 53:1] 17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
How can a dead man hear you might ask without the Holy Spirit or the Father drawing them.
Simple, through the words of Jesus.
John 14:24
He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are Spirit and they are life.
Romans 10:8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[Deut. 30:14] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[Isaiah 28:16] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[Joel 2:32]
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"[Isaiah 52:7]
16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"[Isaiah 53:1] 17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
psalms109:31
Active Member
TCGreek said:
I love those passages and I agree with them you cannot see enter heaven until you are born again, but it doesn't stop you from believing. It is God who gives the Holy Spirit and we know who He will give the Holy Spirit to, it is believers in His timming not ours.
Not those who will let trials and tribulation choke out the word He has given us. It is God who gives the Spirit and we don't know when or how. We just continue trusting in Jesus no matter what life throws our way.
We know that those who put thier trust in Jesus will not be disappointed
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Thanks pinoybaptist and jarthur.
So, damnation is based on 1. Our fallen nature we inherit from the first Adam; and 2. The evil acts we commit in our flesh.
Interesting. I guess I always thought those were part and parcel.
I also agree/believe that we must be born again by the Spirit before we are enabled by God's grace to believe.
I think the challenge here is that first, people are either unaware or deny the fact of our fallen, damned nature from Adam. On the second point, most folks seem to think they are basically good. "I don't {insert sin here}, so I am okay.
But,
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart come evil ideas, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.
So, all of the sins in my heart on waiting on hands and feet to be acted out.
So, damnation is based on 1. Our fallen nature we inherit from the first Adam; and 2. The evil acts we commit in our flesh.
Interesting. I guess I always thought those were part and parcel.
I also agree/believe that we must be born again by the Spirit before we are enabled by God's grace to believe.
I think the challenge here is that first, people are either unaware or deny the fact of our fallen, damned nature from Adam. On the second point, most folks seem to think they are basically good. "I don't {insert sin here}, so I am okay.
But,
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart come evil ideas, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.
So, all of the sins in my heart on waiting on hands and feet to be acted out.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Physician
We don't forget about our fallen nature, but who can save us from this body of death, praise be to Jesus, but the truth of the matter our eyes are not open tell we turn to Jesus.
2 Corinthians 3:16
But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
The veil will not be taken away until we turn to Jesus.
So If you have a veil over your eyes you cannot see as good we need Jesus to take away the veil to see clearly.
We who are believers are filled with the Holy Spirit and we are the messengers of the Holy Spirit and the words of Jesus which is Spirit and life.
They need the words of Jesus which is Spirit and life to respond to the Gospel. We can be like the young rich ruler or be like Lyndia.
Jesus is the physician and we who believe is His messenger of His word. Jesus did not come to cure the well, but the sick.
In other words we need Jesus because we all sick and Jesus is the only answer.
Without the words of Jesus we are a dead person, but only the words of Jesus can open our eyes to respond to the Gospel, but it is not always yes as we seen with the young rich ruler
We don't forget about our fallen nature, but who can save us from this body of death, praise be to Jesus, but the truth of the matter our eyes are not open tell we turn to Jesus.
2 Corinthians 3:16
But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
The veil will not be taken away until we turn to Jesus.
So If you have a veil over your eyes you cannot see as good we need Jesus to take away the veil to see clearly.
We who are believers are filled with the Holy Spirit and we are the messengers of the Holy Spirit and the words of Jesus which is Spirit and life.
They need the words of Jesus which is Spirit and life to respond to the Gospel. We can be like the young rich ruler or be like Lyndia.
Jesus is the physician and we who believe is His messenger of His word. Jesus did not come to cure the well, but the sick.
In other words we need Jesus because we all sick and Jesus is the only answer.
Without the words of Jesus we are a dead person, but only the words of Jesus can open our eyes to respond to the Gospel, but it is not always yes as we seen with the young rich ruler
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